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1 Destro  Sun, Jan 27, 2013 8:55:44pm

I don’t get why people leave the shitty old world with their old world rules and arrive in the new world and continue the same culture they wanted to get away from in the first place.

2 cinesimon  Sun, Jan 27, 2013 9:45:59pm

re: #1 Destro

Wow.
Yes, they must conform or they are from the 15th century and hate freedom.
Destro, you’re spouting Geller-esque nonsense - and a cultural hatred that really is from years past - for most reasonable people.

Islamic culture has a beauty that many in the west have always appreciated. Get over your bigotry.
Not all Islamic culture is “shitty old world”. For those of us not too lazy and scared to look.

3 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Jan 27, 2013 11:08:52pm

Vicious Babushka,

How long until Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer explode yelling “Islamic fashion Jihad?” Maybe she already has, but I don’t feel like subjecting myself to her stupidity right now.

4 Destro  Sun, Jan 27, 2013 11:09:36pm

re: #2 cinesimon

Why did you assume I only meant “Islamic culture”? I find it disgusting women are being abused by the old world religion like this in USA where they could be free. My statement applies to Christians (like the Amish), etc.

This has zero to do with the delusions of Geller-esque nonsense because I don’t think Muslims are taking us over, or are a threat to conquering the world - nonsense fantasies of the American right wing scumbags.

5 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jan 27, 2013 11:21:26pm

re: #4 Destro

What makes you think women here aren’t free because they choose to dress differently than whatever it is you approve of? What makes you think they’re all being abused?

6 TedStriker  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 12:36:13am

re: #1 Destro

Get fucked.

7 TedStriker  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 12:42:02am

re: #4 Destro

We could only assume that you were talking about “Islamic culture”, because this is a Page about…Islamic culture. More specifcally, it’s about American Muslim women trying to adhere to their religious beliefs, yet still dress fashionably, and selling that style of clothing to other observant Muslim women.

That backpedaling BS you were trying to cover yourself with, by saying that “[your] statement applies to Christians (like the Amish), etc.”, doesn’t wash.

Like I said before, get fucked.

8 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 6:08:26am

re: #1 Destro

I don’t get why people leave the shitty old world with their old world rules and arrive in the new world and continue the same culture they wanted to get away from in the first place.

Why wear pants, man? That’s just, like, shitty cultural tradition. Go out balls-free, man, fight the power!

9 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 6:14:10am

p.s. My wife, who’s from a heavily-Muslim part of Ohio, says that anyone who thinks that women can’t use concealing clothing to also flatter their figures and otherwise enhance their appeal is an idiot.

Image: Dian-Pelangi-Latest-Hijab-Collection-2012-for-Muslim-Women-7.jpg

Image: hijab2.jpg

[Link: www.polyvore.com…]

10 [deleted]  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 8:33:53am
11 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 8:45:37am

re: #7 TedStriker

We could only assume that you were talking about “Islamic culture”, because this is a Page about…Islamic culture.

What, are the problems with “Islamic culture” as you put it specifically off-limits to criticism? Oppression is oppression whether it comes from an imam or Pat Robertson.

12 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 8:47:57am

re: #11 SidewaysQuark

What, are the problems with “Islamic culture” as you put it specifically off-limits to criticism? Oppression is oppression whether it comes from an imam or Pat Robertson.

Women being beaten & honor-killed = oppression
Women starting their own small businesses to meet a customer demand = NOT oppression

Learn the freaking difference.

13 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 8:49:11am

re: #10 SidewaysQuark

True, but headscarves are still a symbol of oppression.

In a vague way, in that they’re supposed to keep a woman modest because men can’t control their lust, sure. But why (in most places) are their bans on toplessness among women?

14 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 8:49:34am

re: #12 Vicious Babushka

Women being beaten & honor-killed = oppression
Women starting their own small businesses to meet a customer demand = NOT oppression

Learn the freaking difference.

Telling people God wants them to cover their heads and body in shame under the latent threat of eternal torture of hell = psychological oppression. Not on the same par as honor killings, for sure, but no one said so.

Human beings really need to awaken from the nightmare of religiously-imposed dogma.

15 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 8:50:34am

re: #13 Obdicut

In a vague way, in that they’re supposed to keep a woman modest because men can’t control their lust, sure. But why (in most places) are their bans on toplessness among women?

Those laws are bad, too. Not as bad as making a woman cover her head, but still bad.

16 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 8:52:34am

re: #15 SidewaysQuark

Those laws are bad, too. Not as bad as making a woman cover her head, but still bad.

Okay. So this is just a completely common problem in society in general. I think that the Islamic stuff is more obvious to people because it’s furrin, but there’s a hell of a lot of Christian women going around dressed modestly because they think that modesty is an essential part of their religious nature, and they don’t come in for this sort of ire. I know that, abstractly, you’d like to admonish that, too, but because there’s no set ‘uniform’, the head-covering, you can’t.

What laws would you like, by the way? Complete nudity allowed, anything else being repression?

17 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 8:57:24am

For the record, I think all the gender-discrimination and division in all religion is bullshit and problematic, be that in Orthodox Judaism, Catholicism, etc. I also think that the secular gender discrimination, which is aplenty, is shitty too, the perception that women are less suited for some jobs because of biotruths and the rest of that.

But forms of Islam (and Judaism, and Christianity) that have a ‘uniform’ code aren’t necessarily more repressive than those that just stress ‘modesty’ without having a specific list of what needs to be done to be modest.

There is no right way for a woman to dress, except that way that she wants to. Separating this from all the forces telling her how to dress— from the sex-is-always-sinful types telling her to cover up completely, to the Madison avenue representation of a woman as just a platform of sexuality to be displayed at all times— is pretty fucking impossible.

18 Destro  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:03:26am

re: #8 Obdicut

Why wear pants, man? That’s just, like, shitty cultural tradition. Go out balls-free, man, fight the power!

You know very well that the clothing in Islamic culture is designed to thwart women’s rights. I find it odd a liberal would continue this denigration of women’s rights.

19 Destro  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:06:11am

re: #13 Obdicut

In a vague way, in that they’re supposed to keep a woman modest because men can’t control their lust, sure. But why (in most places) are their bans on toplessness among women?

Topless is legal in New York. Women had to fight that bit of sexism to get that done away with.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]


This was not done so women can go topless - just that feminists found it obscene that their breast were seen as illegal vs male exposed breasts.

20 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:06:34am

re: #16 Obdicut

What laws would you like, by the way? Complete nudity allowed, anything else being repression?

Depends on the time and place. There’s hygiene arguments to be considered as well. Most of Western mainland Europe doesn’t have repressive laws regarding nudity, and they don’t seem to have any big problems as a result.

21 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:08:01am

re: #18 Destro

You know very well that the clothing in Islamic culture is designed to thwart women’s rights. I find it odd a liberal would continue this denigration of women’s rights.

So is most clothing.

22 Destro  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:08:21am

re: #14 SidewaysQuark

Telling people God wants them to cover their heads and body in shame under the latent threat of eternal torture of hell = psychological oppression. Not on the same par as honor killings, for sure, but no one said so.

Human beings really need to awaken from the nightmare of religiously-imposed dogma.

Ditto. Enough of this bull that this is somehow cool. It is not. It is repression on a cultural level imported from overseas repressive cultures. I hope in time the American Muslim ends it just like Catholics ignore repressive teachings on condoms, etc.

23 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:08:24am

re: #19 Destro

Topless is legal in New York. Women had to fight that bit of sexism to get that done away with.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

This was not done so women can go topless - just that feminists found it obscene that their breast were seen as illegal vs male exposed breasts.

And I agree with that. And yet most women in NYC choose not to go topless. Why is that?

24 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:09:29am

re: #20 SidewaysQuark

Depends on the time and place. There’s hygiene arguments to be considered as well. Most of Western mainland Europe doesn’t have repressive laws regarding nudity, and they don’t seem to have any big problems as a result.

I’m not arguing in favor of those laws. I’m arguing that Muslim modesty isn’t different than any other kind of modesty, and that modesty is something that’s generally all over the fucking place.

If a woman wants to wear something because she wants to avoid the male gaze, I have a lot of fucking difficulty telling her she’s being oppressed and she should be open to having her body stared at by whoever wants to.

25 Destro  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:10:47am

re: #21 Obdicut

So is most clothing.

No, not most clothing. Certain modes of dress.You full well know this which is why you had to backtrack your statement above about gender repression.

You know full well that this is not about fashion but about religious oppression of women continued in America. Cultures that make women dress as they do also carry out other repressions like arranged marriages, etc.

26 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:13:10am

re: #25 Destro

No, not most clothing. Certain modes of dress.You full well know this which is why you had to backtrack your statement above about gender repression.

I didn’t backtrack a damn thing. Most female clothing is designed in the context of a heavy patriarchy which very much determines what’s acceptable female dress. The way women dress in our society, especially professional women, is far stricter than it is for men. You are supposed to display a certain amount of sexuality— too much, and you won’t be taken seriously, not enough, and you’re an ice queen, etc.

The problem is not the specific level the ‘modesty’ dial is set to, it is the existence of the dial in the first place; the patriarchal values. At most, you can make a bland argument that traditional clothing reinforces the patriarchy, but what is it you’re suggesting the women wear instead? If it’s ‘whatever they want’, and they freely choose this clothing, are you going to try to deprogram them from their false ideas about modesty, or what?

27 Destro  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:13:40am

re: #24 Obdicut

I’m not arguing in favor of those laws. I’m arguing that Muslim modesty isn’t different than any other kind of modesty, and that modesty is something that’s generally all over the fucking place.

If a woman wants to wear something because she wants to avoid the male gaze, I have a lot of fucking difficulty telling her she’s being oppressed and she should be open to having her body stared at by whoever wants to.

Is a women who comes from such a culture is dressing like this because of fear of being seen as immodest? Maybe. Or is she dressing like this because if she does not she will be beaten/abused/coerced forced by the male overlords in her life?

28 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:15:30am

re: #27 Destro

Is a women who comes from such a culture is dressing like this because of fear of being seen as immodest? Maybe. Or is she dressing like this because if she does not she will be beaten/abused/coerced forced by the male overlords in her life?

Or maybe it is because she is proud of her culture and doesn’t like bigoted assholes telling her that it sucks.

29 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:19:46am

re: #24 Obdicut

I’m not arguing in favor of those laws. I’m arguing that Muslim modesty isn’t different than any other kind of modesty, and that modesty is something that’s generally all over the fucking place.

If a woman wants to wear something because she wants to avoid the male gaze, I have a lot of fucking difficulty telling her she’s being oppressed and she should be open to having her body stared at by whoever wants to.

Hey, I’m not arguing for banning any mode of dress. People can wear what they want. Just don’t expect any consistent and progressive-thinking person to condone culturally- or religiously-imposed levels of modesty that take feminine expression backward in time instead of forward.

30 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:20:00am

re: #27 Destro

And if a women who comes from such a culture is dressing like this because of fear of being seen as immodest? Maybe. Or is she dressing like this because if she does not she will be beaten/abused/coerced forced?

Maybe either one. And maybe the girl who’s dressed all provocatively doesn’t really want to be dressed that way, but if she’s not she won’t be socially accepted.

I know plenty of Muslim women who dress with a traditional headscarf who aren’t worried about being beaten, abused, coerced, or forced. I’m not even really understanding what your argument is here— that dressing modestly is bad, and creating ‘modest’ clothing is bad, because some women are forced to be modest?

Women should choose to wear what they want. I think that if women really wore what they ‘wanted’ to, rather than what society told them to, we’d find women dressing more modestly, not less, that fewer women would give a shit about their appearance, because right now it is way skewed to one side in that we expect women to pay a ton of attention to how they look but men can basically do whatever and get away with it.

Any case you can show me of a man (or woman) saying that women should wear this clothing because if they don’t they’re sinful and bad, I’ll happily criticize the fuck out of that person. But I will not judge women for choosing what they want to wear, and I will not assume if they choose modest clothing there’s something inherently wrong with that any more than if they choose ‘immodest’ clothing.

31 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:21:15am

re: #29 SidewaysQuark

Hey, I’m not arguing for banning any mode of dress. People can wear what they want. Just don’t expect any consistent and progressive-thinking person to condone culturally- or religiously-imposed levels of modesty that take feminine expression backward in time instead of forward.

I don’t get what you mean by ‘condone’. If a woman wants to wear a certain level of modest dress because she doesn’t want to be viewed as much as a sex object, is it condoning to say that that’s okay for her to do?

32 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:24:28am

Here’s another thing: loose-fitting clothing that covers the body is more comfortable (both in warm and cold temperatures) than tight-fitting clothing which exposes the body.

Also, fat-shaming: Women with less-than-perfect bodies are discouraged from wearing revealing clothing and prefer to cover up because it is more flattering.

There are plenty of non-religious cultural reasons for people choosing to dress in a certain way.

33 Red Falcons of America  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:26:37am

re: #30 Obdicut

I think that’s the main point; it’s not liberal to force a woman into wearing less clothes just as it is not liberal to force a woman into wearing more clothes. What is liberal is allowing woman to make decisions for themselves on what kind of clothes they wish to wear - giving woman the power to choose is essential in woman’s rights.

Are some woman’s decisions influenced by patriarchy ? Of course, but there is no less patriarchy in Western society then there is in Islamic society.

34 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:28:37am

re: #33 Red Falcons of America

I think that’s the main point; it’s not liberal to force a woman into wearing less clothes just as it is not liberal to force a woman into wearing more clothes. What is liberal is allowing woman to make decisions for themselves on what kind of clothes they wish to wear - giving woman the power to choose is essential in woman’s rights.

Are some woman’s decisions influenced by patriarchy ? Of course, but there is no less patriarchy in Western society then there is in Islamic society.

“Western” society is too broad. There’s certainly less patriarchy in countries where women are allowed to have jobs, get educated, etc. than countries where they can’t. But on the particular issue of women and how they dress and present themselves, I think people have a huge blind spot for how restrictive it is for women in the US.

35 Red Falcons of America  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:41:11am

re: #34 Obdicut

I would make the argument that there isn’t a hierarchy of patriarchy but rather varying degrees to which it effects the lives of woman, that it’s always there and it’s always negative no matter the severity.

Sure, woman in the United States are more likely to be able to have a job, but they still earned only 77 cents on the male dollar in 2008, according to the latest census statistics. (That number drops to 68% for African-American women and 58% for Latinas.) I’m sure that those statistics play out in a similar fashion in other ‘western’ countries (Canada, UK and most of Europe, etc).

Patriarchy and white supremacy are systemic and institutional. I fear that the idea that the Patriarchy seen in the Islamic World is ‘bad’ while the soft patriarchy in the West is ‘good’.

36 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 28, 2013 9:52:08am

re: #35 Red Falcons of America

There always is a hierarchy from some perspective. I am absolutely comfortable saying my wife is far happier here in our society where she’s able to be a scientist than she would be in an a society where she was denied education. Far, far, far happier. She’s a born scientist— she was keeping biology journals as soon as she could write. Somewhere that frustrated that desire to learn would be hell for her. You can say that in one place women have more rights than in another, and you can broadly say that those greater rights equate to greater happiness.

This takes away not at all from acknowledging the huge gap that there still is. That things are worse elsewhere is no excuse for us not to be better here.


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