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1 alinuxguru  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 7:26:21am

Great quotes from Ryan Bellerose. He hit the nail on the head.

2 Billy the Weatherman  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 9:11:23am

CAMERA shouldn’t comment on things it doesn’t know or understand, especially the Idle No More movement, considering that there politics is the kind of politics that is opposed to Idle No More (right-wing conservative).

An important thing to note is the dynamic within the Idle No More movement. Like Occupy, it has developed as a grassroots movement of First Nations peoples, which has poles pulling it in different directions. There are the grassroots section which wishes to push harder, into blockades and economic disruption, and then there are the Indian Act Chiefs, who want to leverage the grassroots legislatively and engage in a false ‘negotiation’ with the GoC.

I would suspect that Ryan Bellerose is on the pole of ‘negotiation’ and not disruption. Luckily as the movement grows it can push those people aside and actually get something meaningful. (also, the line ” We natives believe in bringing about change peacefully…” is deleterious! Anyone Remember OKA?!)

haaretz or CAMERA, which has more journalistic credibility….

3 Billy the Weatherman  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 9:15:14am

[Link: www.haaretz.com…]

He also describes a meeting that the Canada Palestine Association had with a First Nations group of female elders. That happened in Vancouver in 2006, when the groups gathered to speak about then AFN head Chief Phil Fontaine’s visit to Israel

Fontaine, Kawas says, is “a first Nations Abbas,” referring to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. “He’s part of a corrupt leadership that does not represent the grassroots.”

“The elders invited us to speak about our position and agreed with us. After the meeting they gave us a special eagle feather as a present – which I consider my visa and my passport to this land,” he said.

4 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 9:59:03am

Does Aigle ever get tired of saying “Where’s the coverage?” while citing, well, coverage?

5 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 11:29:14am

Not to mention the Arabs have a history there too.

6 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 11:46:10am

re: #4 Obdicut

Does Aigle ever get tired of saying “Where’s the coverage?” while citing, well, coverage?

aigle never gets tired or bored of anything because aigle is just a spambot.

7 Skip Intro  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 12:24:14pm

re: #6 Vicious Babushka

Aigle (aigle)

Web site URL:
[Link: www.camera.org…]

Registered since: Aug 20, 2009 at 11:22 am
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of Pages posted: 1,770

8 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 1:54:36pm

re: #7 Skip Intro

A rate of over 1 a day.

9 JeffFX  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 2:25:32pm

When I first joined LGF I wasn’t allowed to up/downding lizards until I had participated in the conversation for a while. Couldn’t Charles do something similar for pages so the Aigle-bot has to engage like a real person to post here?

I wouldn’t want non-participants to be able to launch propaganda on a site I ran, so I imagine Charles isn’t thrilled either, despite being a much nicer person than I am.

10 kmg  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 2:59:38pm

re: #9 JeffFX

Some of us don’t mind its posts. I find some of them quite interesting and if others don’t, just don’t read them.

11 JeffFX  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 3:24:19pm

re: #10 kmg

Some of us don’t mind its posts. I find some of them quite interesting and if others don’t, just don’t read them.

You’d still be able to go to the bot’s source. It just wouldn’t have lgf as a soapbox until it can prove it’s a real person by having conversations here.

This isn’t supposed to be a site where you poop and run.

12 kmg  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 3:55:18pm

re: #11 JeffFX

Really? Where does it say that you can’t just poop and run ;-)

13 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 4:34:09pm

Jews, Muslims and Christians —no?

Probably some other flavors and labels as well.

14 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 7:27:34pm

re: #3 Red Falcons of America

As always, such articles ignore the fact that while Palestinian religious practices are respected on tribal land in the Canada and the US, anyone attempting to practice Native American religious practices on land run by Palestinians would be subject to violent attack by Islamists for being a ‘pagan’.

Equivalence FAIL.

15 stabby  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 9:15:50pm

Oh the whining of the wolfpack downdingers is so pathetic and so continuous

You’d think they’d find other things in life to spend their time on.

16 thecommodore  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 9:32:02pm

re: #11 JeffFX

That’s why I downding every post this bot makes.

17 stabby  Thu, Jan 31, 2013 10:37:29pm

If Charles wanted the bot banned, he could do it at any time.

18 Origuy  Fri, Feb 1, 2013 12:25:38am

Exodus 33:2
And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:

Seems to me that they were the indigenous people of Israel.

19 Billy the Weatherman  Fri, Feb 1, 2013 3:50:34am

re: #18 Origuy

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

“ignore”? The article isn’t about that. You realize that news and opinion can be about other things that often don’t fit your hamfisted ideological commitments. Instead of “Equivalence FAIL.” maybe you should have gone with the CAMERA slogan “WHERES THE COVERAGE?”

20 rosiee  Fri, Feb 1, 2013 5:48:14am

re: #10 kmg

Indeed I believe I was introduced to CAMERA through LGF.

21 Locker  Fri, Feb 1, 2013 10:29:40am

re: #15 stabby

Oh the whining of the wolfpack downdingers is so pathetic and so continuous

You’d think they’d find other things in life to spend their time on.

So this is the constructive thing in life you’ve spent your time on… whining about people by calling them whiners.

You might be able to see things a bit more clearly if you removed that bucket from your head.

22 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 1, 2013 6:03:09pm
Jews Are one of the Indigenous People of Israel

I do however have a problem with all those who have lived for generation after generation in other parts of the world laying some theological claim to Israel, and often to the entire region.

How come I can’t make the same claim on where my Scandinavian ancestors lived for thousands of years? Could it be because Thor didn’t hand out property deeds?

23 Buck  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 7:13:10am

re: #22 Achilles Tang

Theological claim to Israel? No one has to talk about theological claims.

In this case the Property Deed was handed out in the 1920’s by the Allies of WW1 at San Remo, voted on at The League of Nations, adopted by the US through the Anglo-American Convention (1924), and agreed to by The United Nations.

The Jewish people acquired legal sovereignty in Palestine, based on their historical connection to the land, BUT it was done legally with the full participation of the world.

At the same time, and by the exact same people, the Arabs were given 90% of the land (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq). Later about 90% of the land that was already legally transferred to the Jews was broken off and given to Palestinian Arabs (Jordan).

And now you want to rewrite my history and say that even that tiny sliver that is left should be disputed?

24 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 7:34:43am

re: #23 Buck

GAZE

25 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 7:35:33am

re: #19 Red Falcons of America

GFY

26 Billy the Weatherman  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 9:27:33am

re: #23 Buck

re: #23 Buck

The Jewish people acquired legal sovereignty in Palestine, based on their historical connection to the land, BUT it was done legally with the full participation of the world.

So, a theological claim to the land was made and then justified though judicial means. Still a theological claim was made - and without that theological claim, Zionism is meaningless.

And now you want to rewrite my history and say that even that tiny sliver that is left should be disputed?

If your history is far-right ideological garbage, there isn’t anything to re-write because you’ve already done it.

Hey, how’s making excuses for anti-muslim hate groups going for ya?

27 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:28:56am

re: #23 Buck

Point out where in his comment he raised the topic of deportation in even the slightest way.

28 Buck  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 12:01:38pm

re: #27 Obdicut

Sure, just as soon as you show where in my comment I said that he raised the topic of deportation in even the slightest way.

Just another example of Obdicut putting words in my mouth.

29 Buck  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 12:19:26pm

re: #26 Red Falcons of America

So, a theological claim to the land was made and then justified though judicial means. Still a theological claim was made - and without that theological claim, Zionism is meaningless.

Absolutely false. You prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no idea what Zionism really is.

You clearly don’t know what the motivation for Zionism was, or anything about Theodor Herzl.

You have no idea the reason that motivated “the establishment of a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law”.

HINT: This was before Europe rose up to slaughter the Jews. At least it was before the last time they tried.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 1:23:13pm

re: #29 Buck

Absolutely false. You prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no idea what Zionism really is.

You clearly don’t know what the motivation for Zionism was, or anything about Theodor Herzl.

You have no idea the reason that motivated “the establishment of a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law”.

HINT: This was before Europe rose up to slaughter the Jews. At least it was before the last time they tried.

He doesn’t care, Buck. “War on Music” has his pet victims that he pities , and he’ll support them no matter what the facts may be.

31 Buck  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 1:46:22pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

He doesn’t care, Buck. “War on Music” has his pet victims that he pities , and he’ll support them no matter what the facts may be.

I think it is the hate that he will show no matter what the facts may be.

32 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 2:33:04pm

re: #23 Buck

Theological claim to Israel? No one has to talk about theological claims.

In this case the Property Deed was handed out in the 1920’s by the Allies of WW1 at San Remo, voted on at The League of Nations, adopted by the US through the Anglo-American Convention (1924), and agreed to by The United Nations.

The Jewish people acquired legal sovereignty in Palestine, based on their historical connection to the land, BUT it was done legally with the full participation of the world.

At the same time, and by the exact same people, the Arabs were given 90% of the land (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq). Later about 90% of the land that was already legally transferred to the Jews was broken off and given to Palestinian Arabs (Jordan).

And now you want to rewrite my history and say that even that tiny sliver that is left should be disputed?

Got something up your butt?

I don’t dispute the legal, human created, Israel; nor even some of the additional territories since then given the circumstances over the years.

However if you knew anything you would know that there are plenty of Jews who think they own it all, by the word of a god. Not all, but enough of them who are every bit as single mindedly obstinate about theological principles as the Arab nations.

Don’t lecture me.

33 Billy the Weatherman  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 4:15:47pm

re: #29 Buck

apparently there is one motivation for Zionism and that Theodor Herzl is the only Zionist ever. In the far-right Revisionist history being peddled by Israels supporters, Labour zionism, liberal zionism, revisionist zionism and religious zionism disappear.

Fuck your revisionism. Israel is a theocratic state which privileges one ethno-religious grouping over all others.

34 Billy the Weatherman  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 5:08:32pm

re: #29 Buck

this is the same Theodor Herzl who introduced a motion to the world Zionist organization to establish Israel in Kenya?

35 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 5:36:30pm

re: #28 Buck

Sure, just as soon as you show where in my comment I said that he raised the topic of deportation in even the slightest way.

Just another example of Obdicut putting words in my mouth.

Oh, sorry, Buck, I misread ‘disputed’ as ‘deported’. My apologies, you’re completely correct that I got that wrong.

Anyway, all he argued was that the theological claim was bunk. And it is. But what Israel’s claim to the land was doesn’t matter. The state exists. Many states came into being through many different processes— Israel’s birth is as legitimate as most other countries.

Also, talking about the land being divided up between Jews and Arabs is kind of broad brushed. There’s far more ethnic divisions than just “Jew” and “Arab”, and a lot of the problems in the Middle East stem from the formation of these countries in very arbitrary ways.

36 Buck  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 6:30:15pm

re: #32 Achilles Tang

there are plenty of Jews who think they own it all, by the word of a god.

You might know all kinds of stuff.

I do however have a problem with all those who have lived for generation after generation in other parts of the world laying some theological claim to Israel, and often to the entire region.

Yes there are Jews who might say that to them this is the promised land. It does not in any way invalidate their “claim”.

You made it sound like it would.

37 Buck  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 6:44:18pm

re: #35 Obdicut

But what Israel’s claim to the land was doesn’t matter.

Maybe to you it doesn’t. It matters to me and millions of others. It matters very much that people know the truth about my history and not the revisionist history being peddled by the people who are out to make us seem illegal living in Israel.

We have had that discussion a few times now.

I understand that it doesn’t matter to you. I get that you don’t think the history matters. I am fully aware that you feel that all that matters is what is now.

I don’t link it when people rewrite my history like it is some kind of joke.

38 Buck  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 6:45:43pm

re: #34 Red Falcons of America

this is the same Theodor Herzl who introduced a motion to the world Zionist organization to establish Israel in Kenya?

That actually proves that Zionism isn’t about some theological claim,

39 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 7:03:49pm

re: #36 Buck

You might know all kinds of stuff.

Yes there are Jews who might say that to them this is the promised land. It does not in any way invalidate their “claim”.

You made it sound like it would.

Their “claim” is no more, or less, valid than those who worshiped Baal, or later Allah.

In one sentence you make the claim that Israel is legal according to human law, then in the next you suggest it is just as valid because of an imagined “promise”.

40 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 7:15:02pm

re: #33 Red Falcons of America

Theocratic: You keep using that word to describe Israel, but it does not mean what you think it means.

41 Aligarr  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:43:09am

re: #39 Achilles Tang

The Jews had a country with a coinage , built a Temple on their own Land , inhabited that land for atleast2000 years , leaving their history virtually everywhere . Historical documentation going back 2 millenia attests to that fact .Although they were driven out by the Romans ,a remnant has always remained there ever since . The world knows it ,EVEN the palestinians know it . So to pretend that their claim to the land , as their homeland from which they were driven out of is invalid due to religious reasons is ludicrous .

42 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:13:40am

re: #41 Aligarr

Yes, but the Jews are hardly the only people on the planet who have been persecuted, nor are they the only ones who lived in that part of the world; my main point that you totally ignore.

43 Billy the Weatherman  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 8:28:42am

re: #42 Achilles Tang

Yeah, I doubt the ultra-conservative defenders of Israel support the idea that Canada should cease to exist and in it’s place should be re-established Iroquois Confederacy.

44 Buck  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:13:51pm

re: #43 Red Falcons of America

Yeah, I doubt the ultra-conservative defenders of Israel support the idea that Canada should cease to exist and in it’s place should be re-established Iroquois Confederacy.

However if this were the time that the colonizers were coming to North America and asking the world to call this land their own, and ignore the indigenous people you would support the indigenous people.

Oh, unless those indigenous people were Jews. Then you would distort the history in order to invalidate them.

In the late 1880s, there were fewer than 350,000 Arabs living in the entire region called Palestine, which then included the area now called Jordan. That area was what had the highest Arab Palestinians population AND WAS GIVEN to the Arab Palestinians as an Arab Palestinian State. Arabs from all over immigrated en masse to the desolate region to take advantage of the economic development created by the Zionists. Arafat’s family was Egyptian. In fact Arabs constituted 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel.

In War on Musics world, the descendants of Arabs who immigrated in pursuit of jobs and economic opportunity are the “indigenous” people while the Jews that lived there for a thousand years and the descendants of Jewish immigrants who fled discrimination, violence, and genocide are the “colonizers.”

That is not a legitimate criticism of Israel policy. It is a version of revisionist history that is designed to make Jews illegal on supposed Arab land.

If it is all Arab land, the logic goes, then Jews are illegal in all of Palestine.

That is racism, that is antisemitism. Straight up.

45 Destro  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:38:50pm

re: #44 Buck

According to the bible fables the Jews themselves invaded and colonized the region carrying out genocide and theft. Even Jerusalem was not a Jewish city, it was called Jebus, a city of the Jebusites, a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem prior to its conquest by King David.

46 Buck  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:02:19pm

re: #45 Destro

According to the bible fables the Jews themselves invaded and colonized the region carrying out genocide and theft. Even Jerusalem was not a Jewish city, it was called Jebus a city of the Jebusites, a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem prior to its conquest by King David.

Maybe, but you don’t believe in the historical Bible.

3000 years later there are no Canaanites nor Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites or even Jebusites. They are not making a claim, and you are not speaking for them. They are not the Arabs. They are not the Arab Palestinians.

Instead, you ignore the very recent evidence of the ethnic cleansing done by Jordan. It was only in 1948. They openly killed and expelled the Jews from Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria. The world, while not accepting their claim of the land, turned a blind eye. In 1950 Jordan openly tried to erase the history of Jews in Judea by renaming the land “The West Bank”. Again, the world not only turned a blind eye, but has repeated the lies.
Now the World (as represented by the United Nations) wants to reward those illegal acts.

3000 years later there are Jews, there are Judeans, and there are Israelite.

It is not the bible that says that, but actual science. History as reported by the multiple nations that conquered the land.
While countries came and went, Greek, Roman and Egyptian. Jews maintained their culture, language, and religion.

It is not the Bible that is the basis for the historic connection to the land. A historical connection to the land that in 1880, no other living group had.

47 Buck  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:10:23pm

Before the time of the fables that the Jews themselves invaded and colonized the region, the land was broken up and the tribes or ‘states’ had names.

Judea, Dan, Asher, Reuben, Benjamin, Shimon, Ephraim, Gad….the sons of Jacob.

Long before Moses, long before Christ, long before Muhammad.

If want to claim the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite… then you don’t have to go much further back in time to give the 12 sons of Jacob their claim.

48 Destro  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:06:03pm

re: #46 Buck

While countries came and went, Greek, Roman and Egyptian. Jews maintained their culture, language, and religion.

The Greek Orthodox church is the largest land owner in Israel and Palestine.

Thus the Greeks are “still there” and based on the origins of the Philistines are just as indigenous to the region more so than say Ashkenazim for example.

49 Billy the Weatherman  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:30:06pm

re: #44 Buck

when did I make a claim that Jews are not allowed in Palestine? You’re putting words into my mouth to suite your political needs and to advance the usual American McCarthyism accusation of “antisemitism!” This is why the debate around Palestine-Israel is so poor in America.

There is no one indigenous peoples to the Holy land - the land has been conquered and re-conquered so many times to point to biblical or ancient history is farcical. But Arabs for a long time of modern history made up the majority, where part of an Arab state (the Ottoman empire) and where forced out by violence by European settlers who where armed with the a theological justification for there actions. Just because Europeans Jews fled discrimination, violence, and genocide to found Israel does not justify committing discrimination, violence and genocide on the other nations who live there.

I am for a bi-national, secular and democratic state, not one that is based on privileging one ethnic or religious tribal grouping. This position was once a vision for the Zionist movement. unfortunately the contradiction of demanding a state the privileges Jews over all others and at the same time being democratic and equal continues to break down and that is why we are seeing the continued drift to Apartheid policies persuaded by messianic-nationalist governments like Likud-Yisrael Beiteinu.

50 Billy the Weatherman  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:48:57pm

re: #48 Destro

The Old Yishuv have a much greater claim to indigeneity then the European Jews which came over during the first wave. That isn’t to say that that European Jews can’t and couldn’t move to Palestine, but the reality is they have far more in common with Europeans then those “native” Jews who were at the time spoke Arabic and where referred to and described as abnaa al-balad (sons of the country), ‘compatriots’, or Yahud awlad Arab (Jews, sons of Arabs).

Of course, it was those European Jews who formed the Irgun and Lehi, terrorist groups that committed violence to bring about the state of Israel (such as indiscriminate attacks by placing bombs and throwing grenades into crowded places such as bus stops, shopping centres and markets.

51 Buck  Tue, Feb 5, 2013 7:04:38pm

re: #48 Destro

The Greek Orthodox church is the largest land owner in Israel and Palestine. Thus the Greeks are “still there”

That is not exactly true, AND the Greek Orthodox church is not the Greeks that conquered that land. Not in Language, culture or religion.

And you know it.

and based on the origins of the Philistines are just as indigenous to the region more so than say Ashkenazim for example.

Again, not true. Who are these Philistines you refer to? Do they retain their language, culture and religion from 3000 years ago?

52 Buck  Tue, Feb 5, 2013 7:12:54pm

re: #49 Red Falcons of America

when did I make a claim that Jews are not allowed in Palestine?

Every time you use the words illegal settlements.

There is no one indigenous peoples to the Holy land

And there is the topic of the post. Yes there are. Based on archaeology and the history of the land as related by the many people who invaded and conquered. It was the Israelites, the Jews (as the area called Judea would confirm) and even the Palestinians. As the designation Palestinian in the late 1800’s through to 1948 meant Jews living in Palestine. The Palestine Post (now the Jerusalem Post) was the Jewish English-language newspaper. The Palestine Orchestra (now the Israel Philharmonic) was a Jewish orchestra, filled to overflowing with Holocaust survivors. The United Palestine Appeal, an American charity, raised money to resettle homeless Jews from Europe in Palestine — one of the things Arabs objected to the most.

I am for a bi-national, secular and democratic state, not one that is based on privileging one ethnic or religious tribal grouping.

The most serious lie you have ever told. What you describe IS Israel. And you do not support Israel.


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