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1 rosiee  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 8:29:25pm

The Feds are insanely good at getting these guys before they can act.
The lone wolf crazies prefer guns and are harder to predict.

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

2 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 9:43:10pm

re: #1 rosiee

Disingenuous article, the Feds are just insanely good at getting these guys before they can act. See the foiled bombs in 2012. The lone wolf crazies prefer guns and are harder to predict.

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

So try as you might to mitigate the threat, it exists.

Who claimed that no threat exists? It sure wasn’t Spencer Ackerman, the author of the article. Who disputed that the Feds are insanely good at catching them? Ackerman didn’t do it in his piece, and according to Kurzman, the guy whose research is behind the report:

Kurzman doesn’t deny that law enforcement plays a role in disrupting and deterring homegrown U.S. Muslim terrorism. His research holds it out as a possible explanation for the decline. But he remains surprised by the disconnect between the scale of the terrorism problem and the scale — and expense — of the government’s response.

Furthermore, in the report’s conclusion Kurzman asks, “What accounts for this decline in Muslim-American terrorism?” He then proceeds to lay out no less than five possible reasons for the decline:

1.) Potential terrorists being deterred
2.) Planned attacks being thwarted without public knowledge
3.) American Muslims drifting away from terrorism on their own
4.) Any combination of 1, 2 and 3
5.) The year-to-year shifts may be essentially random

Did you even look at the report?

Your first link: [Link: www.cnn.com…]

This guy was a Bangladeshi who came to the U.S. on a student visa with the express intent of committing terrorism, he was not an American Muslim. From your source article:

Prosecutors say Nafis was apparently motivated by al Qaeda and traveled to the United States in January under the pretext of attending college in Missouri in order carry out “a terrorist attack on U.S. soil” and to recruit members to form a terrorist cell.

Your second link: [Link: www.foxnews.com…]

Fox News left out the detail that this happened in 2011, not 2012. The report is about 2012. Again, did you even look at it?

Your third link: [Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]

This guy is included in the report. Again, did you even look at it?

Your fourth link: [Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

This guy is also included in the report. Again, did you even look at it?

I fail to see anything “disingenuous” here, as a matter of fact, quite the opposite. Next time, maybe you should try reading the article more carefully, reading the actual report referred to, and checking the links you provide against the stated facts before making assertions that come across as rather disingenuous themselves.

3 rosiee  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 9:55:58pm

The article isn’t disingenuous but the title of the page is.
If these terrorist attacks had been accomplished the death toll would be much higher than the gun attacks.
Also, your points are true, thusly why I edited my comment.

Another point is that radicalized Canadians and Americans go overseas to seek training and to fight, knowing full well that domestic targets are harder than ever before. See the long list of Canadians going to Somalia to train with al-Shebab.

[Link: news.nationalpost.com…]

A half-dozen young Somali-Canadians followed in Hammami’s footsteps in 2009 and left Toronto to join Al Shabab, an al-Qaeda-linked group that is fighting to impose its harsh version of Islamic law on Somalis. At least one of them reportedly died soon after arriving.

4 CriticalDragon1177  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:03:09pm

re: #3 rosiee

They still stopped them through. Also, its not domestic if the guy perpetrating the attack is not only not from America, and doesn’t live in America either.

Curious Lurker just refuted all your arguments.

5 rosiee  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:08:04pm

I’m not eager to claim Muslims are blood thirsty, just so you know CL, that wasn’t the point. Still though, the page says U.S. Muslim terrorism not American-Muslim terrorism. In any case I was hasty and jumped the gun on this, without reading it. I accept my butt-hurt and nod to your logic CL.

6 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:16:07pm

re: #3 rosiee

If these terrorist attacks had been accomplished the death toll would be much higher than the gun attacks.

Uh, yeah, but they weren’t. If I was the Queen of England I’d be rich. I’m neither, so WTF?

Although your point about the Bangladeshi is moot, do you know if any of the gun attackers are naturalized citizens? A domestic terrorist attack is a domestic terrorist attack regardless of the nationality of the attacker.

As CriticalDragon just pointed out, the article & report is about Muslim-American Terrorism, not domestic terrorism in general, therefore your point is moot.

Another point is that radicalized Canadians and Americans go overseas to seek training and to fight, knowing full well that domestic targets are harder than ever before. See the long list of Canadians going to Somalia to train with al-Shebab.

FFS, the report is about attacks in the U.S. by American Muslims, NOT Americans who go overseas to train & fight. I have no idea why you’re even bringing that up or mentioing Canadians.

Look, if you find American Muslims scary and don’t trust them or whatever, fine, but stop trying to move the goalposts to include things that have nothing to do with the article or the report. Stick to the facts, for crying out loud.

7 rosiee  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:23:04pm

“U.S. Muslim Terrorism Was Practically Nil in 2012”
should read
“American-Muslim Terrorism …”

My point was that, although American Muslims have successfully committed almost no attacks, the threat of Islamic terror is still very real, and potentially, considering their preferred methods (bombs vs rambo style nutbags) could be much heavier in blood

Anyways, CL, sorry about ruffling your feathers, you were right my first post was full of shit.

8 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:25:49pm

re: #5 rosiee

I’m not eager to claim Muslims are blood thirsty, just so you know CL, that wasn’t the point. Still though, the page says U.S. Muslim terrorism not American-Muslim terrorism. In any case I was hasty and jumped the gun on this, without reading it. I accept my butt-hurt and nod to your logic CL.

Yes, you jumped the gun as the title of the actual report is Muslim-American Terrorism: Declining Further.

I’m glad you admitted your mistake—not for my ego but for your reputation here. Jumping in without looking won’t fly here. You’ll just end up embarrassing yourself and, if you make a habit of it, people will begin to doubt your intellectual honesty. Don’t make that mistake if you want to be taken seriously.

9 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:30:50pm

re: #7 rosiee

“U.S. Muslim Terrorism Was Practically Nil in 2012”
should read
“American-Muslim Terrorism …”

My point was that although American muslims commit almost no attacks, the threat of Islamic terror is still very real.

NO ONE DISPUTED THAT—not Spencer Ackerman, not Charles Kurzman, not FNB (who posted the Page), not me, and not CriticalDragon, so WHY ARE YOU PRETENDING SOMEONE DID?? It’s getting really annoying. We’re not stupid.

10 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:38:35pm

re: #7 rosiee

Okay, I see you edited your response while I was writing my reply, so I’m gonna back off and leave it alone for now.

While I appreciate & accept your apology, that’s not what I was after. I just want you to be more careful, to pay more attention, because irrational Islamophobia based on negative emotions and assumptions (as opposed to rational caution based on facts) harms me and the people people I care about as much as antisemitism harms you and people you care about, capisce?

11 rosiee  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:44:34pm

Great now you AND Alouette think I’m some kinda Kahanist, sorry If I came off that way, I’ll be more thorough and fair.

12 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 11:13:23pm

re: #11 rosiee

Great now you AND Alouette think I’m some kinda Kahanist, sorry If I came off that way, I’ll be more thorough and fair.

LOL, I don’t think you’re a Kahanist, and I’m pretty sure Alouette doesn’t either. You’re probably fairly young and eager to defend Jews & Israel because those things are important to you. There’s nothing wrong with that—it’s perfectly natural.

I get that you may have trust issues with Muslims. Do you have any idea how many times I’ve gotten frustrated with with comments made here by some Jews and felt like saying, “Okay, screw it—all of THEM secretly hate all of US, so I’m going to hate all of them back!”

But then I calm down and remember that there are plenty of Jews (most even) who have been fair & kind to me here (and elsewhere), so holding on to such an attitude would be a stupid and unjust. Plus, that kind of mistrust would poison my heart and breed further hatred & misunderstanding. There’s already too much hatred & misunderstanding in the world.

Being thorough & fair is the best thing we can do for each other.

13 rosiee  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:09:32am

re: #12 CuriousLurker

It’s bitterness and frayed nerves, I go to U of T and the anti-Israeli shit here is just outrageous.

14 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:22:33am

re: #5 rosiee

I’m not eager to claim Muslims are blood thirsty, just so you know CL, that wasn’t the point. Still though, the page says U.S. Muslim terrorism not American-Muslim terrorism. In any case I was hasty and jumped the gun on this, without reading it. I accept my butt-hurt and nod to your logic CL.

I never claimed that you were eager to claim that Muslims were blood thirsty. I didn’t assume that either. I wasn’t making any judgements as to why you were arguing the way you were. I’m sorry if you thought that, and you don’t have anything to apologize for.

15 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:39:51am

re: #13 rosiee

I hear you. Try to stay calm and not let words from hateful assholes make you lose your cool. When we get angry we make mistakes because our ability to think rationally is impaired (that’s a biological fact), and haters will try to provoke you into an emotional response so you’ll be at a disadvantage. Don’t fall into that trap. They’ll also try to force you into a defensive crouch, which is also a trap.

Be rational. Be respectful. Deal with facts , not emotions. If someone tries to make you angry, don’t react—just stay calm and stay on point. If they persist, tell them that insults, unfounded allegations, innuendo, hyperbole, etc. ISN’T going to move you, and when they’re ready to have an honest & civil conversation you’ll be happy to accommodate them. Then just walk away. But you have to mean it—you can’t say it and then let them bait you back into a stupid argument. And you MUST have your facts straight.

As for other stuff you see or hear, stuff that doesn’t directly involve you and which you have no control over, just let it roll off of your back. Sadly, there’s always going to be bigotry & ignorance in the world, and internalizing the hate directed at you will only harm you and make you bitter. Let it go. Find something positive to do until the feeling goes away instead of dwelling on it.

16 rosiee  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:49:51am

re: #15 CuriousLurker

Good points on argument. Thing is that the intellectual battlefield at university is rarely one of one on one discussions, it’s a crowd vs crowd, where opinions are deeply ingrained and positions are held because of the social circle one is a part of, or, where one sees oneself in the framework of the politic. I’venever gotten into a disrespectful debate with a hijabi, or a bearded fellah, it’s always the loud, abrasive young-communist types (now that I think about that it’s not true, there are some hijabis who can be really vociferous, but generally, in my classes they like to talk about religion and things we share, my close friend now, Amina I met with an argument, their rarely nasty though). They have their arguments memorized and counter-arguments at the ready, it’s like navigating a minefield with these people, say one thing wrong and they’ve gottya on some hook or another. We’ve a pretty nasty Israel Apartheid week here, with professors giving support in the classes, no semblance of neutrality, maybe there is in the science faculty but certainly not in arts. The camps are hewed into stone, and people are judged on their talking-points. It’s a pretty depressing place.

17 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:18:20am

re: #16 rosiee

Ah, yes, the idealism of youth, when everyone is still convinced that they have all the right answers (as are the professors in their ivory towers). Have you looked at my profile’s quote?

The world is divided into people who think they are right. —Anonymous

Here’s a thought: Why not approach some of the bearded Muslim guys and try starting a conversation with them? Tell them you want to talk honestly and, while you’re pro-Zionist and not perfectly free from your own biases, you want to reach out and try to exchange ideas in a civil way, which is something you find impossible to do when everyone is involved in group-on-group smack downs.

I promise none of them will bite you, heh. Maybe you guys can learn something from each other, and maybe, just maybe, the screeching combatants on both sides will take notice of your example and begin to question the wisdom of their ways. Or maybe they won’t. Who knows?

Just worry about you, rosiee—about being the most honorable & compassionate person you can be in everything you do, despite all the problems and fighting around you—because your words & deeds are truly the only things you have control over, and they’re the only things you’ll be called to account for. Don’t lose yourself.

18 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 2:08:17am

re: #16 rosiee

Addendum: I see you were editing while I was replying again. *glares at rosiee*

Okay, since you already have some Muslim friends you can talk to, why worry about the other people? As you said, their positions are already deeply ingrained and tied to their social circles, so what’s the point? This is just two groups shouting talking points at each other, or in the case of individuals, dueling monologues. It’s not constructive conversation or debate and it’s not going to help Israelis or Palestinians.

Personally, I would just stay out of it, but then that’s just me (I have neither the time nor the patience for that kind of crap). If you feel you must be involved, then try to get help to create a third group that actually does want to do something constructive. I’m a bit of a loner, so I can’t give you advice on how to do that, but I’m sure you can figure out how if you have the time and put your mind to it.

Okay, sleepy time. I’m outta here.


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 Frank says:

Whoever we are, whereever we're from, we should have noticed by now our behaviour is dumb, and if our chances are expected to improve, it's gonna take a lot more than trying to remove, the other race, or the other whatever, from the face of the planet altogether -- Dumb All Over, You Are What You Is