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74 comments

1 rosiee  Sat, Feb 2, 2013 11:02:21pm

Yeah honestly what will NRA say, this time the victim certainly didn’t lack requisite shooting skills to “defend himself”

2 rwdflynavy  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 3:03:42am

Ghouls.

3 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 3:15:44am

Man, it sucks that it was (at least) two veterans. I really hope this doesn’t lead to fear and demonization of people with PTSD.

4 KiTA  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 3:57:38am

The Kos diary on this has some good points:

If a gun range doesn’t have enough “good guys with guns”, just how many good guys with guns, and how many guns do those good guys need, to stop ONE bad guy with a gun?

Also: The victim was a legendary Navy SEAL and presumably armed. So even with a significant amount of military training…. Still can’t stop one bad guy with a gun.

Can we thus retire the Gun Fetishists’ “Good guys with guns are the only thing that stop bad guys with guns” as well as “Guns are needed for self defense” canards?

(Although I can already guess as to the talking points — he was a long range specialist, it’s too soon (it’s ALWAYS too soon) to even talk about this, etc.)

5 euphgeek  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 4:46:04am

Unsurprisingly, Freepers are blaming this on Obama who is all at once an evil genius dictator and an incompetent buffoon.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com…]

6 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:25:33am

re: #2 rwdflynavy

Ghouls.

Which ghouls might that be?

The ghouls who make a partisan point after a death?
The ghoul who writes a bestseller about his kills?
The deatheater wannabes who shout that ‘the day’ has finally arrived?

7 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:37:07am

re: #6 Decatur Deb

Which ghouls might that be?

The ghouls who make a partisan point after a death?
The ghoul who writes a bestseller about his kills?
The deatheater wannabes who shout that ‘the day’ has finally arrived?

Chris Kyle wasn’t a ghoul. He was an honorable and brave serviceman who wrote about his experiences in war, as many others have done before.

The ghouls are those who use his death to mock others, spread lies, or mischaracterize their opponents positions. The fact is that given the Heller and MacDonald decisions, no gun control law that could pass Supreme Court review would likely have saved Chris Kyle.

And frankly, Chris Kyle would not have wanted to be saved by gun laws. He was working hard to help fellow veterans overcome their own issues when he died. There was a small element of risk inherent in his actions, but as had been true before, it was a risk Kyle willingly assumed. This time the risk killed him and that is sad and it is tragic. But the death of Chris Kyle really doesn’t tell us much about gun control and shouldn’t be used for political points. The sole exception I’ll allow is the strengthening of mental health programs for veterans at all levels (local, state, and federal). That point may indeed be validly made.

8 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:40:46am

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

It does demosntrate the stochastic nature of gun crime, and how unlikely you ever are to find yourself in a situation where you will both need to defend yourself and be able to.

But mostly it’s just a sad story about veterans and PTSD.

9 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:45:00am
10 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:47:47am

It also shows the weakness of the NRA’s mental health stance. We’re obviously not going to deny gun permits to people who have PTSD, since it’s an incredibly common diagnosis and it doesn’t represent a significant danger on its own. We’re not going to require regular mental health checkups for people anyway, or regular evaluations of gun owners. The entire idea is a nonsense idea.

11 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:49:44am

re: #9 Vicious Babushka

That guy right there, he’s a ghoul. He’s also a shithead.

12 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:50:41am

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

Chris Kyle wasn’t a ghoul. He was an honorable and brave serviceman who wrote about his experiences in war, as many others have done before.

The ghouls are those who use his death to mock others, spread lies, or mischaracterize their opponents positions. The fact is that given the Heller and MacDonald decisions, no gun control law that could pass Supreme Court review would likely have saved Chris Kyle.

And frankly, Chris Kyle would not have wanted to be saved by gun laws. He was working hard to help fellow veterans overcome their own issues when he died. There was a small element of risk inherent in his actions, but as had been true before, it was a risk Kyle willingly assumed. This time the risk killed him and that is sad and it is tragic. But the death of Chris Kyle really doesn’t tell us much about gun control and shouldn’t be used for political points. The sole exception I’ll allow is the strengthening of mental health programs for veterans at all levels (local, state, and federal). That point may indeed be validly made.

First, May he rest in peace.

Second, I thank him for his service.

Third, If you fly a death’s head on your SS cap, US Navy flightsuit, or business logo, stay the fuck away from me.

13 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:53:06am

re: #12 Decatur Deb

First, May he rest in peace.

Second, I thank him for his service.

Third, If you fly a death’s head on your SS cap, US Navy flightsuit, or business logo, stay the fuck away from me.

Who did that?

14 Tigger2  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:53:25am

re: #9 Vicious Babushka

James Foley is either a paranoid idiot or a shit stirrer.

15 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:54:46am

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

Who did that?

[Link: www.thecraft.com…]

16 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:55:06am

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

Who did that?

Chris Kyle’s security company.

17 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:57:22am

re: #16 Vicious Babushka

Chris Kyle’s security company.

I see. He was using the ‘Punisher’ variation on the logo, which is quite different from the old SS totenkopf.

18 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 5:58:58am

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

I see. He was using the ‘Punisher’ variation on the logo, which is quite different from the old SS totenkopf.

With such nuance you could be a leftie.

19 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:02:03am

re: #18 Decatur Deb

With such nuance you could be a leftie.

I don’t really think it nuance: Chris Kyle wanted a type of skull logo and picked on that was known by many but which would avoid any hint of him being any type of Nazi supporter (that last made necessary because of neo-Nazi use of the totenkopf).

20 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:03:53am

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

I don’t really think it nuance: Chris Kyle wanted a type of skull logo and picked on that was known by many but which would avoid any hint of him being any type of Nazi supporter (that last made necessary because of neo-Nazi use of the totenkopf).

He told the art department “I want a logo that screams out what a Badass I am but I don’t want people to think that I’m a nazi or a biker or any of that shit.”

21 Tigger2  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:03:58am

I have to go with the Punisher logo
[Link: media.beta.photobucket.com…]

22 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:04:09am

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

I don’t really think it nuance: Chris Kyle wanted a type of skull logo and picked on that was known by many but which would avoid any hint of him being any type of Nazi supporter (that last made necessary because of neo-Nazi use of the totenkopf).

If death is your totem, you are not of my people, no matter what flag you fly under it.

23 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:04:59am

Couldn’t he run into trademark infringement issues by using the Punisher image?

24 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:05:53am

Marvel own the Punisher image.

25 Tigger2  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:07:06am

re: #24 Vicious Babushka

Marvel own the Punisher image.

It would be intresting to know if he had their permission to use it.

26 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:19:57am

re: #22 Decatur Deb

If death is your totem, you are not of my people, no matter what flag you fly under it.

I can appreciate that.

27 steve_davis  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 6:32:24am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

Couldn’t he run into trademark infringement issues by using the Punisher image?

Well, first they’d probably have Don Pendleton’s estate sue Marvel for effectively ripping off most of the Mac Bolan character (thought Mac Bolan makes the Punisher look like a disney character.).

28 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 7:05:49am

Kyle might have been killed by someone he was trying to help. From Kyle’s wikipedia bio:

Kyle also paired with FITCO Cares Foundation, a non-profit organization which created the Heroes Project to provide free in-home fitness equipment, individualized programs, personal training, and life-coaching to in-need veterans with disabilities, Gold Star families, or those suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

From the new entry on the alleged killer, Eddie Ray Routh:

Television station WFAA was contacted by an unnamed source who said that Routh had been taken out by Kyle of Midlothian and a neighbor on an outing to help him with post-traumatic stress disorder.

29 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 7:07:23am

Some tweets ..

30 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 7:10:31am

re: #29 Mich-again

Some tweets ..

We are at war with insanity.

31 Mich-again  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 7:13:55am

re: #30 Shiplord Kirel

We are at war with insanity.

No kidding. The nuts are hiding out in public..

32 dragonfire1981  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 8:03:23am

re: #30 Shiplord Kirel

We are at war with insanity.

And losing unfortunately…

33 Destro  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 8:52:35am

re: #29 Mich-again

Even I did not think the right would call this an Obama conspiracy kill like they did the murder of that teen girl in Chicago.

34 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 8:58:26am

re: #8 Obdicut

Having the means to defend yourself is not any guarantee, any more then calling the police. It’s a fighting chance. Using NRA rhetoric, exaggerating it for derision on a blog is one thing. But taking it as some flawless assurance of surviving an assault is a straw man of the most deceptive sort. Banal.

This is a crime story that had a great veteran as a victim. There is not much more to be learned about this, and it has zero relevance to ones defense/security decisions in their own circumstances. This crime has no more relevance to that than a gangland murder.

35 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 8:59:00am

re: #33 Destro

Even I did not think the right would call this an Obama conspiracy kill like they did the murder of that teen girl in Chicago.

To the worst of the worst, Obama is a vile demon who can order executions carried out with diabolical precision, but who can never stop the REVOLUTION!!1 I can’t explain the level of reality denial I see in the world these days.

36 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 9:24:03am

This just heavily underscores my main and enduring point to anyone who is friend or family: if you have firearms or hang out a lot where there are guns, you are much more likely to be shot. (e.g. armed school guard’s pistols are used in approximately a fifth of all school shootings.)

37 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 9:28:49am

re: #36 Randall Gross

This just heavily underscores my main and enduring point to anyone who is friend or family: if you have firearms or hang out a lot where there are guns, you are much more likely to be shot. (e.g. armed school guard’s pistols are used in approximately a fifth of all school shootings.)

Like gangland neighborhoods for instance…

Chicago Chaos: Gangland Shootings Claim 19 Victims In One Night
Read more at [Link: www.inquisitr.com…]

38 lawhawk  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 9:38:26am

My thoughts and prayers go out to Kyle’s and Littlefield’s family and friends. Losing a family member or friend is tough.

I’ve seen a couple of reports that indicate that Kyle’s attacker was himself a soldier with PTSD and someone who Kyle was attempting to help.

It makes an already tough situation even tougher. It highlights the need for improved mental health treatment and support services for those returning from military service and to help reintegrating into the civilian life.

As some have noted above, if a single bad guy with a gun can still murder people who are knowledgeable about firearms (and presumably outnumber the bad guy by a wide margin), then the asinine line of thinking by LaPierre and others that a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun should be put to rest.

A bad guy who intends to kill will invariably be able to get the drop on someone who isn’t ready to defend themselves, even if they’re armed.

What kinds of laws could have prevented this particular crime? It’s not entirely clear. Laws prohibiting those with mental health issues? Perhaps, but until we know more of the shooter’s mental health status, treatment, etc., it’s not clear that there was an indicator that he shouldn’t have been entitled to own/carry firearms. For the same reason, a background check wouldn’t necessarily have dissuaded the shooter (depending on registration/reregistration requirements). The AWB wouldn’t necessarily have prevented it either.

In other words, no law will prevent 100% of firearms deaths, but there are reasonable steps that the nation should take to reduce the epidemic of firearms fatalities and injuries.

39 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 9:45:30am

re: #38 lawhawk

A bad guy who intends to kill will invariably be able to get the drop on someone who isn’t ready to defend themselves, even if they’re armed.

As rough as those big flat statistics about crimes and guns seem to be, there are too many successful uses of guns to stop or deter a crime for that to be entirely true. Some security in your home and work, a certain basic situational awareness have provided good people enough time to prevail. Often not even with a gun.

40 Destro  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 10:38:11am

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

[Link: www.freerepublic.com…]

Obama is carrying out SEAL executions it seems…..

41 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 10:39:13am

re: #40 Destro

[Link: www.freerepublic.com…]

Obama is carrying out SEAL executions it seems…..

Never turn your back on a bunch of hippie liberal flower-children.

42 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 10:54:17am

re: #34 Political Atheist

There’s very few cases where people actually are safer owning a gun than not owning one, though.

43 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:13:54am

re: #42 Obdicut

Thing is we all live in our own particular circumstances. Those circumstances are highly complex. Location, lifestyle, training or lack thereof, police response rates. And that’s before we get to level of risk, as in ordinary middle/low class housewife with kids compared to people who keep enough wealth at home to draw criminal attention. Or the relative few that face an escalated risk because of career.

How to stay safe at home, up against threats all kinds is all to be taken up carefully. Especially the home defense part with a gun or weapon of any kind. So on one hand we have these broad, almost flat statistics drawn from the largest possible area. And then we have the complexities that are part and parcel of the decision tree. It’s a low resolution view being applied to a high information resolution need.

44 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:15:11am

re: #43 Political Atheist

Yep. There’s very few cases where people are actually safer owning a gun than not owning one, though.

45 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:16:39am

re: #44 Obdicut

So how few is too few for policy matters?

According to some anti gun advocates, the following things are so unlikely as to be considered practically impossible. The truth is not quite that helpful to that point of view. Sometimes luck is on the side of the good guy as in this first instance listed. Compiled from Google in less than 15 minutes. Every single one from a news source or a web cache. Not one NRA, CATO, or self defense advocacy site.

HARRIS COUNTY, Texas – A retired firefighter took action when a pair of masked home invasion suspects forced his family to the floor in their southeast Harris County home.
Larry Covington said he was unloading groceries in his driveway on Glenhurst in South Park when the two armed robbers forced him inside.
[Link: www.khou.com…]
===================================================
SACRAMENTO, CA - A robbery suspect was shot and killed during a home invasion robbery in Sacramento’s Pocket neighborhood early Saturday morning.
[Link: www.webcitation.org…]
=======================================
GRAND PRAIRIE (CBSDFW.COM) - A 21 year old man is in the hospital, and a homeowner’s bullet put him there.
Grand Prairie police say the homeowner called 9-1-1 around 2:30 on November 27, to report someone breaking into a window of his home, located in the 2000 block of Clark Trail.
The homeowner continued to talk to the 9-1-1 dispatcher, as he grabbed his handgun and argued with the suspect as he entered the home
[Link: dfw.cbslocal.com…]
=============================================
MICHIGAN CITY, Ind — A recent home invasion that led to two suspects getting shot is causing a buzz in Michigan City.
Today people are speaking out after a homeowner took matters into his own hands when coming face to face with a couple intruders.
According to police, a man was inside his home on Pontiac Drive Friday night when two people broke in.
[Link: www.abc57.com…]
===========================================
BRYAN COUNTY, Oklahoma -
A 12-year-old girl took matters into her own hands during a home invasion in southeast Oklahoma.
It happened on Wednesday when the girl was home alone. She told police a stranger rang the doorbell, then went around to the back door and kicked it in. She called her mom, Debra St. Clair, who told her to get the family gun, hide in a closet and call 911.
[Link: www.news9.com…]
=================================
Off-Duty Officer Shoots Burglar To Death In Home Invasion
PHILADELPHIA -
As crime scene investigators dusted for fingerprints at his family’s Andorra home, veteran Warminster Police Officer Chris McCole stood outside talking to investigators and friends, just hours after he met an unwelcome burglar face-to-face in an upstairs bedroom and fatally shot the intruder.
“Thank God it was a police officer who could do something about it before his family was hurt,” said neighbor Sharon Fischer.
[Link: www.myfoxphilly.com…]
===============================================

46 S.D.  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:19:47am

re: #9 Vicious Babushka

Wonder if ‘Twitchy’ covers that???

In any case, it’s a sad day when any of our veterans get killed.

47 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:20:19am

re: #45 Political Atheist

So how few is too few for policy matters?

I’m not talking about public policy mattes. I’m talking about personal choice, and how especially how many people buy a gun thinking they’re making themselves safer but are actually making things more dangerous for themselves and their children. And the gun myth that the NRA is busy pushing that guns make you safer.

In terms of policy, the people who would benefit from having a gun are generally classifiable— either from where they live, what they do for a profession, or some other clear reason. It’s problematic when it’s just the chief of police giving them out to his friends and denying them to his enemies, though.

48 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:37:09am

Public policy lives in the home for us law abiding types. We have laws to comply with that overlay our decision tree about home safety and defense. Or we risk jail. That makes public policy and personal decision inseparable.

Low information gun owners as a concept is a lot more dangerous than low information voters. And your statistic is a small amount of information all by itself. It needs a lot more filled in, which might include what I pointed out in #45. That stat is one point of information among many and should be regarded as such. The policy or personal decision does not start and stop at that stat. Most Americans don’t own guns at all. Many gun owners bought them for hunt and sport not defense. Hopefully with good policy fewer people will own guns for the wrong reason or negligently. Very few people apply for CCW as compared to the overall population. So your stat is already significantly reflected in gun ownership rates. One way to reduce defensive gun purchases is to reduce crime rates. Maybe that’s the best way in the long term.

49 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:43:50am

re: #48 Political Atheist

Public policy lives in the home for us law abiding types. We have laws to comply with that overlay our decision tree about home safety and defense. Or we risk jail. That makes public policy and personal decision inseparable.

Not really what I was talking about. What I was talking about is for the average law-abiding gun owner, the gun is more dangerous than it is ever going to be helpful.

Low information gun owners as a concept is a lot more dangerous than low information voters. And your statistic is a small amount of information all by itself. It needs a lot more filled in, which might include what I pointed out in #45. That stat is one point of information among many and should be regarded as such. The policy or personal decision does not start and stop at that stat. Most Americans don’t own guns at all. Many gun owners bought them for hunt and sport not defense.

I’m sorry, I’m really not getting your point. For most people, owning a gun is more dangerous than not owning a gun. That’s true for hunters, too, even if they didn’t buy the gun to increase their safety.

Hopefully with good policy fewer people will own guns for the wrong reason or negligently. Very few people apply for CCW as compared to the overall population. So your stat is already significantly reflected in gun ownership rates. One way to reduce defensive gun purchases is to reduce crime rates. Maybe that’s the best way in the long term.

My point is that many, many, many people these days own guns for the wrong reason— just out of pure ‘I want that’, or for self-defense, etc. My wife’s relatives, who are sweet people but classic low-information types, just bought a brace of guns and that terrifies me since one of them is a diabetic who regularly goes into insulin shock and an 82 year old who’s got the beginnings of dementia. Anyway, Wayne LaPierre and the other nutjobs managed to scare up enough shit for them to compulsively buy guns and it really sucks.

Oh, and crime rates have fucking nosedived and people are buying more and more guns. I think it might be a smaller percentage of people buying more and more guns, so that’s nice, except for the more and more guns part.

50 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:55:02am

re: #49 Obdicut

Not really what I was talking about. What I was talking about is for the average law-abiding gun owner, the gun is more dangerous than it is ever going to be helpful.

Might you have a link on the percentage of law abiding gun owners that have guns for decades and never have an accident or negligent use of it? I think that would provide a valuable perspective on your point quoted.

51 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:56:44am

re: #50 Political Atheist

Might you have a link on the percentage of law abiding gun owners that have guns for decades and never have an accident or negligent use of it? I think that would provide a valuable perspective on your point quoted.

Why? I’m not arguing that a high percentage of law abiding gun owners have gun accidents.

52 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 11:58:58am

re: #51 Obdicut

You are arguing for “too high”. Which I happen to agree with but would welcome the number for a fair perspective. The good and the bad. Unless that seems inappropriate or illogical to include?

53 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:02:49pm

re: #52 Political Atheist

No, I’m talking about relative risk. It’s obvious that owning a gun is dangerous. In rare cases, the danger of being attacked is so high that owning a gun makes you safer. Those cases are rare.

The specific number doesn’t really matter in terms of personal choice, which is what I’m talking about. It’s kind of like owning a hotplate, except a hotplate has actual utility, but still, there are a ton of tiny little apartments carved out of spaces in New York where there shouldn’t be, and people do their cooking on little hotplates. Problem is that a hotplate is so freaking easy to start a fire with its ridiculous. It’s almost never worth it to own a hotplate, even if you’re a very careful hotplate user.

54 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:08:14pm

re: #53 Obdicut

No, I’m talking about relative risk. It’s obvious that owning a gun is dangerous. In rare cases, the danger of being attacked is so high that owning a gun makes you safer. Those cases are rare.

The specific number doesn’t really matter in terms of personal choice, which is what I’m talking about. It’s kind of like owning a hotplate, except a hotplate has actual utility, but still, there are a ton of tiny little apartments carved out of spaces in New York where there shouldn’t be, and people do their cooking on little hotplates. Problem is that a hotplate is so freaking easy to start a fire with its ridiculous. It’s almost never worth it to own a hotplate, even if you’re a very careful hotplate user.

Looking at this differently I guess, because in either instance I’d like to see the number of fires and the rate of hot plate use to see how often there is a problem. One in a million? One in 100,000? One fire for every ten hotplates?!
Perspective.

55 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:16:58pm

re: #54 Political Atheist

Looking at this differently I guess, because in either instance I’d like to see the number of fires and the rate of hot plate use to see how often there is a problem. One in a million? One in 100,000? One fire for every ten hotplates?!
Perspective.

Really really hard statistics to gather. In the case of hotplates— and guns— its more of a matter of them being dangerous in and of themselves. A burning hot element that can set most common household fabrics on fire is dangerous. Stoves are dangerous too, but far less dangerous since they’re not portable and can’t tip over on their side, etc.

Guns, likewise, are inherently very dangerous— or rather, gun + ammo is. If you keep your gun like you keep your stove— say, keeping your gun at the firing range, or locked in a gun cabinet with the ammo in a seperate place— you reduce the risk a lot. But the real danger of some average schmoe who guys and buys a glock at Walmart because he heard Obama is taking our guns and keeps it in his bedroom drawer fully loaded— obviously that dude is acting dangerously unless he’s actually at severe risk of being attacked in his house. Which is possible, in some places.

This is why the old NRA pledges from back in the 1940s were stuff like “I will never carry my gun loaded except when hunting and then I will never point my gun towards another human”, and now the NRA makes a lot of money off of teaching firearm safety classes to people its convincing need a gun, while not teaching them the biggest thing: that they’re almost certainly more at risk having that gun than not having it.

56 Destro  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:33:31pm

re: #43 Political Atheist

Thing is we all live in our own particular circumstances. Those circumstances are highly complex.

Then stop coming up with simplistic bumper sticker solutions and slogans to explain this gun fetish policy like the NRA does.

This incident pretty much demolishes the NRA argument of what could have prevented gun violence.

57 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:34:45pm

re: #56 Destro

Then stop coming up with simplistic bumper sticker solutions and slogans to explain this gun fetish policy like the NRA does.

PA doesn’t do that, though.

58 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:41:12pm

re: #56 Destro

Thing is we all live in our own particular circumstances. Those circumstances are highly complex.

Then stop coming up with simplistic bumper sticker solutions and slogans to explain this gun fetish policy like the NRA does.

This incident pretty much demolishes the NRA argument of what could have prevented gun violence.

You sound pissed. You must have missed my numerous posts distancing and in fact attacking the NRA approach to this.

NRA Head LaPierre ‘Call Me Crazy’-RWC Says May I Be First?

59 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:44:48pm

re: #55 Obdicut

Really really hard statistics to gather. In the case of hotplates— and guns— its more of a matter of them being dangerous in and of themselves. A burning hot element that can set most common household fabrics on fire is dangerous. Stoves are dangerous too, but far less dangerous since they’re not portable and can’t tip over on their side, etc.

Guns, likewise, are inherently very dangerous— or rather, gun + ammo is. If you keep your gun like you keep your stove— say, keeping your gun at the firing range, or locked in a gun cabinet with the ammo in a seperate place— you reduce the risk a lot. But the real danger of some average schmoe who guys and buys a glock at Walmart because he heard Obama is taking our guns and keeps it in his bedroom drawer fully loaded— obviously that dude is acting dangerously unless he’s actually at severe risk of being attacked in his house. Which is possible, in some places.

This is why the old NRA pledges from back in the 1940s were stuff like “I will never carry my gun loaded except when hunting and then I will never point my gun towards another human”, and now the NRA makes a lot of money off of teaching firearm safety classes to people its convincing need a gun, while not teaching them the biggest thing: that they’re almost certainly more at risk having that gun than not having it.

Which is why I want that research money restored that has been discussed a bit. We all want the right data to ponder this debate.

60 Destro  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 12:48:26pm

re: #57 Obdicut

re: #58 Political Atheist

I meant the pro gun lobby rather than individuals on here and those that re-cycle the same propaganda of the right and gun lobby and I have no idea how you can read sound and emotion with my writings online.

Statistics show owning a gun means you are more likely to be injured/killed by one than not. So claiming it makes you safer is nonsense. That does not mean in certain cases people should not own guns (just like you may need to own a car which makes you more liable to be involved in a car accident).

So any claim guns make us safer is false/a lie.

61 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:05:24pm

I’m going to add to this that whether owning a gun helps keep you safe should only matter up to a point. If someone is not a danger to others and is not suicidal, then frankly the decision should generally be up to them to make. That it would make them less safe is, even if true, irrelevant. It frankly should not matter to the state that a stable and responsible person wants to keep a pistol in their house for personal protection, so long as they do it safely. Freedom means being able to assume risks and then accept the rewards and costs of running those risks. Ultimately, accepting the freedom of others means accepting that some people will take chances that end up getting them killed.

62 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:07:15pm

re: #60 Destro

Simplistic stuff like this is just not nearly as helpful as we might both wish Destro. I have tried to show why, without any jingoism or pro gun links.

That the NRA lies comes as no surprise to me. It’s what advocacy organizations often do because their loyalty to the cause outweighs their loyalty to the facts or the truth. Sadly, we see a lot of that in the gun debate and on both sides.

63 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:10:09pm

re: #59 Political Atheist

Which is why I want that research money restored that has been discussed a bit. We all want the right data to ponder this debate.

Man, that data is nearly impossible to really get. It’s so tied in with so many other factors. It also doesn’t matter to my main argument, which is not ‘how should this inform policy’ but ‘how should this inform gun culture’. A good gun safety teacher should, for example, teach that, unless you are in a rare circumstance or you are an exceptionally, no-kidding-about-it, conscientious person, owning a gun is more dangerous than not owning a gun. We have a myth in the US of people in the US solving problems with guns. I do not think these myths are the cause of gun culture, I think they’re representative of it.

This is going to be a side-ramble, but if you go back and watch the old good Westerns, the classic John Ford movies, firing guns is a significant event. People who just let off rounds are lunatics, are fools, are dangerous. Most of the gunfire is in military action, with unglamorous tactics, and when there is a small-scale gun battle in a John Ford film it’s often a guy shooting another guy in the back after setting up an ambush— The Searchers— or it’s a guy whacking down prone while firing two desperate shots, with no shot of the people getting killed— like in Stagecoach.

I think our myths have changed and that they were healthier back then; I think back then having a gun and carrying it around was seen as a burden of responsibility, and anyone who didn’t treat it that way, who glorified and swaggered in it, that was the bad guy, or at least the seriously flawed hero who will suffer tragedy and go through a redemptive process.

64 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:11:08pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to add to this that whether owning a gun helps keep you safe should only matter up to a point. If someone is not a danger to others and is not suicidal, then frankly the decision should generally be up to them to make. That it would make them less safe is, even if true, irrelevant.

It’s not irrelevant to their personal decision-making, Dark, which is what I’m talking about. Guns are ‘sold’ in the US as making you safer, but in most cases they do the opposite. I’m objecting to the marketing tactics of the gun industry, basically, whether they’re intentional or just following the gun myth, I dunno.

65 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:17:29pm

re: #63 Obdicut

Man, that data is nearly impossible to really get. It’s so tied in with so many other factors.

We can find good data. The FD can probably database fire causes. Local hotplate sales can give you a rough number. Simple surveys can and have been done to good effect. Divide gun accidents with gun ownership and get an accident rate. Much like divide murders into population and get the rate.
You do agree those studies de funded by the NRA should re start right?

Keep in mind I’m all for most of the gun regulation changes suggested by Biden and Obama now and want research to continue. I think we want to see those studies that looked at violence from a epidemic/contagious disease perspective. Not as a delay or distraction, but as an addition.

Destro, might you like that plan?

66 Political Atheist  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:18:43pm

re: #63 Obdicut

This is going to be a side-ramble, but if you go back and watch the old good Westerns, the classic John Ford movies, firing guns is a significant event. People who just let off rounds are lunatics, are fools, are dangerous. Most of the gunfire is in military action, with unglamorous tactics, and when there is a small-scale gun battle in a John Ford film it’s often a guy shooting another guy in the back after setting up an ambush— The Searchers— or it’s a gun whacking down prone while firing two desperate shots, with no shot of the people getting killed— like in Stagecoach.

I think our myths have changed and that they were healthier back then; I think back then having a gun and carrying it around was seen as a burden of responsibility, and anyone who didn’t treat it that way, who glorified and swaggered in it, that was the bad guy, or at least the seriously flawed hero who will suffer tragedy and go through a redemptive process.

I agree with this part 100%

67 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:19:52pm

re: #64 Obdicut

It’s not irrelevant to their personal decision-making, Dark, which is what I’m talking about. Guns are ‘sold’ in the US as making you safer, but in most cases they do the opposite. I’m objecting to the marketing tactics of the gun industry, basically, whether they’re intentional or just following the gun myth, I dunno.

Fine, that’s a valid objection. Just as long as you remember that it isn’t a basis for legislation. The answer to what one perceives as deceptive speech is to reply with what one feels is the truth.

68 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 1:46:22pm

re: #65 Political Atheist

We can find good data. The FD can probably database fire causes. Local hotplate sales can give you a rough number. Simple surveys can and have been done to good effect. Divide gun accidents with gun ownership and get an accident rate. Much like divide murders into population and get the rate.

It’s really not that easy to do, man. It’s fascinating, but it’s not that easy to do. For example, a lot of hotplates are used in places where you’re not supposed to have a hotplate. So how do you figure out the number of illegal hotplate users?

Let me put it this way: I’m all for funding that research, but it could take decades before we saw fruit from it, because it gets into some fundamental questions. Like, if a guy gets drunk and knocks over his hotplate, are we calling that a death by hotplate, or a death by alcohol? The apartment building then burned down, killing another ten people— but it turned out management had the back stairs blocked off illegally, trapping some people. So are those deaths hotplate deaths, or are they apartment mismanagement deaths, or what? Gun suicides, which are more often successful than other attempts at suicide, how much do those get counted?

Guns you have the reverse problem, too— the majority of cases where someone says they used a gun in self-defense but the use was to brandish it and not to fire— the best use, really— you can’t prove they did it. You can’t prove, in a lot of cases, there was a burglar, or if he got scared off by the light going on and never even saw the gun, etc. Figuring out how to get to second-order stuff like that is really tricky.

We have a rough idea. The chance of dying by gun violence is slightly below the chance of dying in a car accident right now. That chance is obviously massively unevenly distributed— just as the areas where you’re likely to need a weapon in self-defense are very unevenly distributed. So if you live in an area you know is very safe, then owning a gun is almost certainly more harmful than it is helpful.

69 Destro  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 2:39:17pm

re: #63 Obdicut

I was surprised when I brought up that the “Gunfight at the OK Corral” was over the cowboys not turning in their guns when they came to town.

When I posted that I got this huge firestorm about this as if I had attacked a myth that in old America, men walked around armed like in the movies all the time with a side arm.

70 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 2:56:39pm

Taking someone with mental health issues shooting doesn’t seem to help them much.

71 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 3:04:06pm

re: #69 Destro

Where was this?

72 Destro  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 3:26:36pm

re: #71 Obdicut

Where was this?

On a right wing forum a few years ago…

73 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 4:36:13pm

...

74 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Feb 3, 2013 7:46:13pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to add to this that whether owning a gun helps keep you safe should only matter up to a point. If someone is not a danger to others and is not suicidal, then frankly the decision should generally be up to them to make. That it would make them less safe is, even if true, irrelevant. It frankly should not matter to the state that a stable and responsible person wants to keep a pistol in their house for personal protection, so long as they do it safely. Freedom means being able to assume risks and then accept the rewards and costs of running those risks. Ultimately, accepting the freedom of others means accepting that some people will take chances that end up getting them killed.

Again, Nancy Lanza was ‘not a danger to others, not suicidal’, and would have been a responsible gun owner up till December. People shooting themselves and their family members is an appalling tragedy and a massive financial and societal burden on the nation. That it happens for no reason other than to make profit off selling guns is disgusting and a blight on this country.

But it doesn’t end just with people who might be otherwise stable and responsible making bad decisions and hurting themselves. Their guns kill other people too. Far, far too often.

And accepting thousands of deaths a year and tens of thousands of injuries just so people can be free to be sold fear and paranoia and worship guns is, frankly, morally wrong.


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