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1 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 3:49:33pm

It wasn’t until recently and a friends younger brothers situation that I really thought about laws and fines and penalty’s and how relative they are to ones own personal fortunes.
A more financially set person will not be phased by speeding fines or tickets but some one who struggles financially for whatever reason can really have their entire life damaged or put on hold by it.

It seems fines and financial penalty’s really only punish people who are less fortunate.

It reminds me of something I once read a long time ago, from a French writer, something along the lines of “In France they believe in equality of the classes, It is against the law for both a poor and rich person to beg for food on the streets”

2 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 3:54:14pm

It is certainly dumb to jail people who can’t pay, but if we are honest we should admit that many don’t because they spent the money on something else that they didn’t need. There needs to be a financial accounting in such cases.

3 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 4:01:01pm

re: #2 Achilles Tang

It is certainly dumb to jail people who can’t pay, but if we are honest we should admit that many don’t because they spent the money on something else that they didn’t need. There needs to be a financial accounting in such cases.

Yes, but you can’t count every nickel and dime spent on gum or beer against a person. We all buy items other people think are ridiculous.

Where do you draw the line?

I see posts on facebook that say, “if you can afford tattoos and nose jewelry you don’t need welfare.” I think that is making a value judgement that wouldn’t hold up under scrutiny.

4 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 4:50:24pm

re: #2 Achilles Tang

I don’t give a shit if someone wants to buy their kids a birthday present for their birthday over a fine or if they decide to pay a parking fine over paying for their seizure medicine. Either way doesn’t immediately affect me. What I do care about is these financial penalties ONLY punish less financially fortunate people. Not everyone who is in a bad financial situation is their due to irresponsible living.

5 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 4:52:04pm

re: #3 FemNaziBitch

Yes, but you can’t count every nickel and dime spent on gum or beer against a person. We all buy items other people think are ridiculous.

Where do you draw the line?

I see posts on facebook that say, “if you can afford tattoos and nose jewelry you don’t need welfare.” I think that is making a value judgement that wouldn’t hold up under scrutiny.

Respectfully, that sounds like an excuse to do nothing if taken literally.

For a start, those who can’t pay can appeal to the court in a timely manner with reasons and take their chances, without simply ignoring the fine and then saying months later (often when arrested on another violation) that they didn’t pay because they didn’t have the money (and didn’t think it was a big deal).

If people can’t pay the electric bill, or the mortgage, or the credit card, they do have an opportunity to work out a payment schedule. Why should a warrant for a minor offense be any different?

Finally, I am getting close to 70 and I have, so far never had even a parking ticket (that I can remember anyway), but if I did I paid my debt and have no warrants.

Even while I don’t agree with jail for such matters, I question why I should have sympathy for those who cannot follow the simplest of laws, and then expect to have them ignored.

6 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 5:02:17pm

re: #4 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown

I don’t give a shit if someone wants to buy their kids a birthday present for their birthday over a fine or if they decide to pay a parking fine over paying for their seizure medicine. Either way doesn’t immediately affect me. What I do care about is these financial penalties ONLY punish less financially fortunate people. Not everyone who is in a bad financial situation is their due to irresponsible living.

I don’t give a shit for someone who can’t follow simple rules, and not bother to explain extenuating circumstances instead of waiting for the next arrest on another minor violation that could have been avoided in the first place.

Also, I have seen plenty of “civil” debt issues in my time, and I have seen no examples of arrest and jail for not paying a “debt collector” for a civil debt. The plaintiff can ask for judgments against income or liens against assets, or liens against those who may buy those prior assets, but I have never heard of jail for person A who doesn’t pay person B (who is not a governments). That is why we have so many lawyers.

7 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 5:07:33pm

re: #4 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown

I don’t give a shit if someone wants to buy their kids a birthday present for their birthday over a fine or if they decide to pay a parking fine over paying for their seizure medicine. Either way doesn’t immediately affect me. What I do care about is these financial penalties ONLY punish less financially fortunate people. Not everyone who is in a bad financial situation is their due to irresponsible living.

A couple years ago, NPR carried a a story from Finland that answered your issue. There, a fine schedule matches the offense to your income. The case was the director of Nokia, who landed the world’s largest speeding ticket, 116,000 Euros.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk…]

8 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 5:08:31pm

re: #6 Achilles Tang

I am not talking about Jail I am talking about fines and how they affect people differently depending on their situation.
And I don’t give a shit what you think about people you feel are beneath your awesome ability to follow simple rules.

I do have respect for your opinion and I know it has been raised before I just can’t agree.

9 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 6:01:49pm

Shrugs. We live in a society where your value as a human being is the same as the amount of money you make. That’s not a big surprise in a society ruled by economic determinism.

10 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 6:12:01pm

re: #8 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown

I am not talking about Jail I am talking about fines and how they affect people differently depending on their situation.
And I don’t give a shit what you think about people you feel are beneath your awesome ability to follow simple rules.

I do have respect for your opinion and I know it has been raised before I just can’t agree.

Well, thanks for the respect, and also with respect the OP is about jailing people for debt. My point, in essence, is that nobody is jailed simply for being in debt, so far. They are jailed for ignoring the law and the system of law. As to simple rules, yes, I do feel I am above people who regularly, as opposed to by accident, violate simple laws; and yes, I think fining them is preferential to jailing them, and if you disagree I can only assume that you allow those to do as they please; or would you substitute lashes perchance?

11 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown  Sun, Feb 10, 2013 7:26:05pm

re: #10 Achilles Tang

If people are jailed for ignoring the system of law I do not see a problem with that. I do see a problem with set monetary fines as punishment when it does not punish someone who can well afford it. I also have a problem with someone suggesting poorer people need to have their finances scrutinized because they probably are spending money on things they don’t “need”.
You would never need to scrutinize the needless spending habits of the trophy wife of a millionaire who would have to pay the same fine because, well it would just be paid.

And by the way, I would only entertain the idea of lashings if I could dole them out personally and as long as it was consensual of course.

12 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 11, 2013 6:11:41am

re: #11 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown

I think you miss my point. Fines are the way we punish infractions of law. They are not issued based on a person’s wealth, which is unknown at that time. The followup when that person ignores the fine is the issue at stake, and I have said as much already.

One method that could be considered is what they do in Sweden, where fines are called “Day Fines”. The fine is based on the daily earnings of the person fined and the number of days fined depends on the circumstances. A millionaire would pay a lot.


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