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1 Destro  Mon, Feb 25, 2013 8:37:23am

Kidnapping soldiers or any act against a soldier is not terrorism.

Terrorism is an attack on civilians and civilian structures for the sole strategic or tactical purpose of inducing terror.

The attack on the USS Cole for example was not a terror attack.

2 rosiee  Mon, Feb 25, 2013 11:32:13am

re: #1 Destro

What armies in the world kidnap?
The only reason they do this is to get political gains from the civilian population of whom these soldiers are the sons and daughters of.
BTW Destro, just love your double standard: on the one hand Hamas and Fatah are freedom fighters but FSA in Syria are terrorists in cohoots with the terrorist funding state department.

3 Destro  Mon, Feb 25, 2013 11:54:47am

What armies in the world kidnap?

You never heard of armies capturing other soldiers? Did you learn warfare from playing “Risk”?

Attacks on soldiers is not terrorism in contrast attacks on police can be considered terrorism.

This is the US govt’s definition of terrorism for what it’s worth:

[Link: www.nctc.gov…]

Terrorism: Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.

Armed soldiers on military duty of course are not noncombatants are they?

4 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 25, 2013 1:33:45pm

re: #3 Destro

In this case, the point is to make his loved ones back in Israel feel the terror. It doesn’t fit the strict definition of terrorism, but only an idiot wouldn’t understand that this isn’t being done in any sort of conventional military fashion.

5 Destro  Mon, Feb 25, 2013 1:45:17pm

It doesn’t fit the strict definition of terrorism

Thank you.


PS: I must have missed the lectures where conventional military actions are not designed to make the families of soldiers back home feel bad their soldier relatives would get hurt, killed or captured in war and thus urge their leaders to end the war………..

6 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Feb 25, 2013 4:38:34pm

Some people are failing to remember that Gilad Shalit was kidnapped on Israeli soil. It wasn’t anything close to a “POW” situation.

7 Destro  Mon, Feb 25, 2013 8:38:16pm

re: #6 ReamWorks SKG

Actions against soldiers even on the soil of their country is not an act of terrorism. It is an act of war, an act or aggression but not terrorism.

8 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 7:42:57am

Who knows. Maybe Destro is right in that Palestine is too cowardly to actually admit that they’re behind these attempts to kidnap Israeli soldiers. So instead, they’ll use Hamas much like they use human shields, to claim it isn’t an official state act when in fact it really is given their caveman mentality that also includes a stupid charter to destroy the state of Israel. Bu until that ignorant big mouth Abbas admits to it, it’s terrorism. Oh, and what does it tell you when a nation trades 1,000 of their own citizens for 1 of another nation?

9 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 7:48:07am

re: #5 Destro

It doesn’t fit the strict definition of terrorism

Thank you.

You’re welcome. Strict definitions are pretty dumb, and only idiots adhere to them when they’re clearly not suited for the situation.

PS: I must have missed the lectures where conventional military actions are not designed to make the families of soldiers back home feel bad their soldier relatives would get hurt, killed or captured in war and thus urge their leaders to end the war………..

In many cases war deaths increase the support for the war. By the way, you only need three periods in an ellipsis. Using more looks nutty.

10 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:03:13am

Warfare is generally considered when two uniformed military forces fight each other. That warfare can be asymmetrical, or symmetrical (but even then, the sides are always trying to find ways to shape the battlefield to their advantage).

Terrorism can and does include attacks against military targets, just as surely as they are against civilian targets. The purpose is the instructive and defining attribute. Terrorism is about instilling terror and fear in the target population, forcing government policy changes.

Hamas targeting IDF soldiers for kidnapping isn’t warfare since it isn’t a tactic treated as such under laws of war. Hamas doesn’t treat the soldiers it kidnaps according to the laws of war and Geneva Conventions (withholding Red Cross access for instance). That distinguishes it from soldiers captured on a battlefield - like when a military unit surrenders and is captured and the soldiers are processed as POWs.

It is terrorism. It is about exploiting an Israeli sociopolitical decision to protect its citizens from capture by Hamas and doing what it must to bring all of its soldiers home (up to an including eventually trading a single soldier for hundreds, or thousands of Palestinians held in Israeli jails for charges up to and including terrorism, murder, and who have Israeli blood on their hands).

Moreover, Hamas doesn’t fight as a uniformed military force; it fights and acts as an out-of-uniform terror group that operates behind civilians so as to maximize the carnage and to blend in. At the first sign of Israeli preparations for attacking Gaza, Hamas militia members switch out of their typical uniforms and don civilian garb. That’s not the action of a military, but a terror group.

AQ attacked high profile targets so as to spread its doctrine and worldview, raise awareness, and taking out embassies (protected by US military) or US Navy ships directly (the USS Cole) doesn’t diminish the fact that those were terror attacks. They were also part of the AQ war against the US that they declared in the 1990s.

Hamas wants people like Destro to spread their agitprop - to give Hamas the veneer of a state-actor that is entitled to all the protections of laws of war all while they ignore those same rules so as to maximize their advantages in an asymmetrical war against Israel.

Hamas uses all means at their disposal, even targeting Israeli kids in schools and justifying those attacks on grounds that they one day will be IDF soldiers.

Flipping that logic on its head would absolve Israel of similar civilian casualties - particularly those of kids kids killed in airstrikes that do kill Palestinian terrorists, because they too will grow up to be terrorists.

But that’s not Israel’s tactic, and that’s not Israel’s stance on civilian casualties collaterally caused by going after terrorists who seek to kill and maim Israelis. Israel does what it can to avoid those civilian casualties all while Hamas looks to maximize them for propaganda purposes.

11 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:08:26am

re: #10 lawhawk

Nice. Especially this:

Moreover, Hamas doesn’t fight as a uniformed military force; it fights and acts as an out-of-uniform terror group that operates behind civilians so as to maximize the carnage and to blend in. At the first sign of Israeli preparations for attacking Gaza, Hamas militia members switch out of their typical uniforms and don civilian garb. That’s not the action of a military, but a terror group.

12 Destro  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:12:01am

re: #10 lawhawk

You do not need a uniform to be a soldier or combatant. Mistreating POWs is a war crime but it is not terrorism. [Link: www.icrc.org…]

13 Destro  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:12:30am

re: #11 Gus

Nice but bullshit. You do not need a uniform to be a soldier or combatant. Mistreating POWs (denying Red Cross access, etc) is a war crime but it is not terrorism. [Link: www.icrc.org…]


PS: I am not declaring Hamas does not carry out acts of terror and terrorism - they clearly have done so and continue to do so but acts of violence against military personal is not terrorism.

14 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:23:27am

re: #13 Destro

Nice but bullshit. You do not need a uniform to be a soldier or combatant. Mistreating POWs (denying Red Cross access, etc) is a war crime but it is not terrorism. [Link: www.icrc.org…]

PS: I am not declaring Hamas does not carry out acts of terror and terrorism - they clearly have done so and continue to do so but acts of violence against military personal is not terrorism.

Didn’t you used to be a Freeper?

15 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:34:19am

re: #13 Destro

Nice but bullshit. You do not need a uniform to be a soldier or combatant. Mistreating POWs (denying Red Cross access, etc) is a war crime but it is not terrorism. [Link: www.icrc.org…]

PS: I am not declaring Hamas does not carry out acts of terror and terrorism - they clearly have done so and continue to do so but acts of violence against military personal is not terrorism.

Which means Palestine or Hamas would have to then officially declare war on Israel. They have in essence through their charter. However, they have not publicly declared war on Israel. Therefore, I invite them to take their case to the United Nations and declare war on Israel. Short of that, Abbas can go up to a mic and publicly declare war and “official conflict” against Israel. For the time being, he gets to hide behind “unknown agents” such as Hezbollah, and occasionally lob rockets at Israel. AKA, terrorism.

16 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:56:47am

To the page mobile!

17 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 9:05:29am

re: #16 Gus

To the page mobile!

Oops. Wrong page.

18 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 9:47:52am

Well what do you know, a senior Hamas leader and all around scumbag is calling for more kidnappings of IDF soldiers.

Hamas Calls to Kidnap IDF Soldiers

The Hamas terror group, taking advantage of the rioting in Judea and Samaria, is calling on terrorists to kidnap IDF soldiers.

According to the Iranian Fars agency, senior Hamas leader Salah al-Bardawil urged terrorists participating in a rally in Gaza in protest of the death of a terrorist in Israeli custody to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

Hamas organized two huge rallies in Khan Younis and Rafah in southern Gaza to protest the death of 30-year-old Arafat Jaradat in the Meggido prison, according to Fars.

Addressing the rally in Khan Younis, al-Bardawil urged the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. The abduction of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit led to the release of over 1,000 terrorists in 2011 in a prisoner swap deal between Hamas and Israel.

Al-Bardawil urged Egypt to show responsibility toward the prisoner exchange, which was brokered in Cairo, according to Fars.

A new Palestinian Intifada is about to break out in support of prisoners,” al-Bardawil said, urging all PA Arabs to join activities to support detainees.

19 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 10:06:15am

re: #13 Destro

Nice but bullshit. You do not need a uniform to be a soldier or combatant. Mistreating POWs (denying Red Cross access, etc) is a war crime but it is not terrorism. [Link: www.icrc.org…]

It’s not just ‘mistreating’ them. They don’t treat them as POWs in any sense of the word. They’re just kidnapping them as a political bargaining chip.

This is an obvious thing; denying it is weird.

20 Destro  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 10:38:09am

re: #19 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

It’s not just ‘mistreating’ them. They don’t treat them as POWs in any sense of the word. They’re just kidnapping them as a political bargaining chip.

This is an obvious thing; denying it is weird.

I did not deny it, which is weird that you think I did. I called it a war crime. A war crime is not terrorism.

21 Destro  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 10:38:56am

re: #15 Gus

Which means Palestine or Hamas would have to then officially declare war on Israel. They have in essence through their charter. However, they have not publicly declared war on Israel. Therefore, I invite them to take their case to the United Nations and declare war on Israel. Short of that, Abbas can go up to a mic and publicly declare war and “official conflict” against Israel. For the time being, he gets to hide behind “unknown agents” such as Hezbollah, and occasionally lob rockets at Israel. AKA, terrorism.

That means you would have to officially recognize the nationhood of the Palestinian people. I mean it is Israel that declared that the UN should not recognize Palestine as an independent co-equal nation.

Attacks on civilians is terrorism. I don’t deny this.

Attacks on soldiers? Not terrorism.

22 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 10:41:46am

re: #21 Destro

That means you would have to officially recognize the nationhood of the Palestinian people.

I’ll wait for Hamas to recognize the state of Israel. Even to the point of their constant extremist language in which they say that Israel does not have a right to exist. I would accept a state of Palestine. Their turn to accept they state of Israel. I’ll wait.

23 Destro  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 11:28:56am

re: #22 Gus

Well there is you declaration of “war” right there.

In any case, attacking soldiers is not terrorism even if done by terrorists.

24 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 11:32:22am

re: #23 Destro

Well there is you declaration of “war” right there.

In any case, attacking soldiers is not terrorism even if done by terrorists.

1983 Beirut barracks bombing.

Terrorism.

25 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 11:43:23am

USS Cole bombing.

Terrorism.

26 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 11:45:18am

9/11 Pentagon Attack.

Terrorism.

Yes, a mixed target. Unless of course you’re going to argue that the military personnel were killed that day were not victims of terrorism.

27 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 11:56:48am
White House Press Secretary Jay Carney today strongly condemned the attack on the U.S. embassy in Ankara, Turkey, saying “a suicide bombing on the perimeter of an embassy is by definition an act of terror.”

“It is a terrorist attack,” Carney told reporters at the White House daily briefing.

28 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 12:03:58pm

1996 Khobar Towers military complex. 19 American servicemen killed.

Terrorism.

29 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 12:07:03pm

re: #27 NJDhockeyfan

Here’s my rule. If a terrorist organization carries out a violent act it’s a terrorist act regardless of the target.

In 22 USC § 2656f - Annual country reports on terrorism they define terrorism as

(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group practicing, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—

Yes, there it is. There’s just one problem. That’s a definition of terrorism “as used in this section.” 18 USC § 2331 - Definitions defines terrorism. There is no qualification for “non-combatants” and only mentions ” to intimidate or coerce a civilian population.” The bombing of the USS Cole for example was meant “to intimidate or coerce a civilian population” of the USA.

There is also 18 USC § 2332b - Acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries

(b) Jurisdictional Bases.—
(1) Circumstances.— The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are—
(A) the mail or any facility of interstate or foreign commerce is used in furtherance of the offense;
(B) the offense obstructs, delays, or affects interstate or foreign commerce, or would have so obstructed, delayed, or affected interstate or foreign commerce if the offense had been consummated;
(C) the victim, or intended victim, is the United States Government, a member of the uniformed services, or any official, officer, employee, or agent of the legislative, executive, or judicial branches, or of any department or agency, of the United States;
(D) the structure, conveyance, or other real or personal property is, in whole or in part, owned, possessed, or leased to the United States, or any department or agency of the United States;
(E) the offense is committed in the territorial sea (including the airspace above and the seabed and subsoil below, and artificial islands and fixed structures erected thereon) of the United States; or
(F) the offense is committed within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

Yes, the counter argument would be “but that is US law and the USA is violating international law. I welcome that argument from my EU brothers and sisters that continue to acknowledge that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

30 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 12:09:17pm

So to recap:

18 USC § 2332b - Acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries

(b) Jurisdictional Bases.—
(1) Circumstances.— The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are—

(C) the victim, or intended victim, is the United States Government, a member of the uniformed services, or any official, officer, employee, or agent of the legislative, executive, or judicial branches, or of any department or agency, of the United States;

31 Destro  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 12:59:42pm

re: #24 Gus

1983 Beirut barracks bombing = not terrorism unless you want to consider Japanese Kamikaze attacks terrorism also.

USS Cole bombing = not terrorism = see Kamikaze example.

1996 Khobar Towers military complex = not terrorism again military on military action. Is it terrorism because the American soldiers were asleep?

The 9/11 attack on the Pentagon was terrorism because it used a hijacked civilian airliner.

Pointing out that attacks on soldiers is not terrorism does not in fact endorse the organizations who carried out these attacks - for example I don’t support the Japanese empire but I won’t call the kamikaze suicide bombings acts of terror either - it is meant to enlighten and to make sure we see reality as it is rather than through war propaganda.

32 Destro  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 1:04:52pm

re: #30 Gus

Terrorism Transcending National Boundaries (18 USC § 2332b)

www.justice.gov › US Attorneys › USAM › Title 9Terrorism Transcending National Boundaries (18 U.S.C. § 2332b) … 1996, was enacted as part of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996

If we only thought of that sooner than 1996! We could have labeled the Vietcong or the Apaches “terrorists”!

Of course when the USA attacks the military personnel of other nations without declarations of war, etc - that is not terrorism.

If American soldiers get attacked - that’s terrorism.

33 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 2:04:46pm

We remember today the 241 American Marines, soldiers, and sailors who lost their lives twenty-six years ago as the result of a horrific terrorist attack that destroyed the Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. The military personnel serving in Beirut were there to bring peace and stability to Lebanon after years of internal strife and conflict. The murder of our soldiers, sailors, and Marines on this day on 1983 remains a senseless tragedy.

We pay tribute on this day to the courage and sacrifice of those whose lives were lost in the Beirut attack, as well as their families and loved ones. We also wish to honor the brave service of all members of the United States military who are protecting Americans and promoting freedom and security around the world, as well as those international peacekeepers who serve in harm’s way.

“In remembering this terrible day of loss, we are at the same time hopeful that a new government in Lebanon will soon be formed. We look forward to working with a Lebanese government that works actively to promote stability in the region and prosperity for its people.”

President Barack Obama
Oct. 23, 2009

The 1983 Beirut barracks bombing was considered a terrorist attack on an official level.

34 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 2:16:58pm

Hizballah is a Lebanon-based terrorist organization formed in approximately 1982 responsible for some of the deadliest terrorist attacks against the United States, including the suicide truck bombings of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 and the U.S. Embassy and U.S. Embassy Annex in Beirut in 1984.

Filed Complaint 11 cv 9186 (RHJ) - Department of Justice

35 Gus  Tue, Feb 26, 2013 2:23:59pm

re: #31 Destro

1983 Beirut barracks bombing = not terrorism unless you want to consider Japanese Kamikaze attacks terrorism also.

USS Cole bombing = not terrorism = see Kamikaze example.

1996 Khobar Towers military complex = not terrorism again military on military action. Is it terrorism because the American soldiers were asleep?

The 9/11 attack on the Pentagon was terrorism because it used a hijacked civilian airliner.

Pointing out that attacks on soldiers is not terrorism does not in fact endorse the organizations who carried out these attacks - for example I don’t support the Japanese empire but I won’t call the kamikaze suicide bombings acts of terror either - it is meant to enlighten and to make sure we see reality as it is rather than through war propaganda.

Apparently you’re going to ignore #30.

36 Destro  Thu, Feb 28, 2013 8:36:26am

re: #35 Gus

Apparently you’re going to ignore #30.

The American law contradicts international law and of course is hypocritical. When Americans kill soldiers from another country (since 1945 no official war has been declared) that is not terrorism but when American soldiers are targeted that is terrorism.

Self serving American foreign policy bullshit passed as “law”.


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