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1 Destro  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 7:09:06am

What Israeli West Bank Apartheid Regime?

2 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 7:13:21am

I noticed this from Jeffrey Goldberg’s tweet:

3 alinuxguru  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 7:20:39am

re: #1 Destro

What Israeli West Bank Apartheid Regime?

None, actually. Thanks for asking.

Any Palestinian who holds an entrance permit to the State of Israel is allowed by law to use public transportation. Officials at the Samaria and Judea District Police have said there is no change in the operation of the rest of the buses, nor is there any intention to remove Palestinians from other bus lines

4 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 7:24:18am

What do you want to call it then? Voluntary Segregation, those who don’t volunteer will be lobbied? :

Racial segregation or transportation mitigation? The Transportation Ministry announced that starting Sunday it will begin operating designated lines for Palestinians in the West Bank.

The bus lines in question are meant, according to the ministry, to transport Palestinian workers from the West Bank to central Israel. The ministry alleges that the move is meant to ease the congestion felt on bus lines used by Jews in the same areas, but several bus drivers told Ynet that Palestinians who will choose to travel on the so-called “mixed” lines, will be asked to leave them.

While officially the new lines are considered “general bus lines,” Ynet learned Saturday that their existence has been made public only in Palestinian villages in the West Bank, via flyers in Arabic urging Palestinians to arrive at Eyal crossing and use the designated lines.

The Transportation Ministry defended the plan, saying it was the result of reports and complaints saying that the buses traveling in the area were overcrowded and rife with tensions between the Jewish and Arab passengers.

A ministry source said that many complaints expressed concern that the Palestinian passengers may pose a security risk, while other complaints said that the overcrowded buses cause the drivers to skip stations.

5 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 7:27:42am

Also for those following AIPAC, the hashtag being most used is :

#AIPAC2013

6 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 7:54:10am

re: #4 Randall Gross

What do you want to call it then? Voluntary Segregation, those who don’t volunteer will be lobbied? :

It’s a Bad Idea is what it is. Even if the settlers are correct about security risks, in a counter-insurgency situation ‘optics’ matter a lot, sometimes more than the actual facts. And the optics of this are horrendous.

If the Palestinians are smart, they’ll reply to this with a boycott of all effected bus lines but without any throwing of stones or violent slogans. It worked for Dr. King in Montgomery, after all.

7 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 8:03:47am

this is top of reddit’s /r/worldnews, [Link: www.reddit.com…]
there are the comments.
read through that and tell me if it’s concern for Palestinians or Hate of Israelis which drives people.

8 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 8:05:53am

Why should settlers not fear Palestinians?

9 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 8:09:27am

Also these people are taking buses to go to work in Israel, going to work in Israel…

10 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 8:25:52am

Sigh. There will never be peace in The Middle East because too many people do not want peace. They want victory.

11 Aligarr  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 9:24:06am

re: #10 Romantic Heretic

I disagree. There will never be peace in Israel , because one side is dedicated to wiping out the other . It has been this way since 1948 with violence unabated .A societal situation that is no where near normal .Any incident becomes immediately polarized .And all scrutinized by the world outside . Victory ? what would be victory for Israel ?
What would be victory for Palestinians ? The stated Goal of both Hamas ,Hizbollah and the P.A. - Eradication of Israel .Measures like the one discussed are not a cause , but an effect of such a situation . Palestinians kill those who sell property to Israelis , also kill Palestinians suspected for collaborating with Israelis , all this in the same country . It of course is bad P.R. for Israel ,and then outside world will no doubt crticize it . Yet when rockets rain down on Israel from Gaza, people expect their idea of normalcy to prevail . Peace will be possible ONLY when the Palestinians abandon their sworn goal as put forward in The Palestinian National Charter, The Hamas Charter ,and The Hizbollah Proclaimation .

12 Aligarr  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 9:29:17am

Having said the above , the situation with buses becomes trivial , and the practical solution is two buslines . Cabs in Israel already have israeli and palestinian designation on their license plates .

13 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 9:32:05am

I do not see why Randall posting this gets a downding.

14 Buck  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 10:17:26am

This is so much like the “Israel sterilizing African women” slander. (An Ethiopian-born woman, and former IDF officer was just crowned Miss Israel 2013)

Maybe the headline could be that Israel is running special buses for people in the “Westbank” to help those wishing to work in central Israel.

ANYONE who has been in Israel can see with their own eyes that there is NO ethnic separation anywhere in Israel. There are no “Jews only” water fountains, restaurants, bathrooms or ANYTHING LIKE THAT. Everywhere you go there are Arabs, Christians, and Jews interacting in every way.

The Transportation Ministry said it “has not issued any instruction or prohibition that prevents Palestinian workers from riding the public bus lines in Israel or in Judea and Samaria. Furthermore, the Transportation Ministry is not authorized to prevent any passengers from riding those lines.”

Anything different would be illegal.

NOW with that said, anyone who wants to separate Judea and Samaria from the rest of Israel are certainly guilty of supporting the war crime of ethnic cleansing that took place in 1948 by the Palestinian Arabs (Jordan).

That was well documented and ignored by the entire world.

15 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 10:52:59am

re: #13 Political Atheist
It’s hate mongering and feeding false notions of what Israel is.

16 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:26:10am

When did posting factual articles from two different sources become “hate mongering”?

17 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:37:46am

re: #16 Randall Gross

There is no “factual” basis to why Israel takes so much flak for moves like this.
It’s cherry picked to serve an agenda.
Meanwhile the real apartheid is in the Arabs’ countries. Just last week Copts were hiding in their Churches in fear of a mob.
Headlines to grab attention and inflame passions, getting front page of reddit and millions of pageviews for Ha’aretz, it’s all so easy when you have a populist movement behind you.
The self-richeous rejoice and balance is thrown out the window.
I don’t have a problem with the article, or an outrage at this, I do not think that bus-lines should be segregated
My issue lies in the mechanisms that swoop into action when bad things like this happen. Where are those same outrages when the other side commits or says evil?
Why is the dialogue so one sided?
Why is it Israel who takes the heat?
What vile attitudes do you foment when one helps spread raw and unbalanced headlines such as this.
Israelis can be unfair to the Palestinians and cruel, but, is it truely “Israel” that is doing this or is it vindictive parts of a free society?
In any case, have you read through the reddit page, will you answer my question? Is this about Israelis or Palestinians?

Remember, most people will only read a headline.

18 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:41:14am

re: #17 rosiee

So now you are accusing me of having an agenda, what’s that supposed to be and when did you become a mind reader?

19 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:56:40am
20 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:59:20am

re: #18 Randall Gross

Well obviously you care about Israel, and seeing it develop into something respected by the world, or you wouldn’t care enough to post this. I think for you it’s a situation of tough love.
Many though hate it and wish it to disappear.

21 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:00:57pm

re: #19 Billy the Weatherman

Go troll /b/

22 Billy the Weatherman  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:13:53pm

re: #17 rosiee

The arch of history bends towards justice, justice isn’t a balanced dialogue between two equally at fault parties. It takes allot of work to recognize your own privileged views when you are not a Bedouin being forced out of your villages.

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

This is what I talk about Intifada.

23 Buck  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:17:28pm

There is no actual evidence of what this headline/Post says.

Once again the haters string a bunch of anonymous person “told us this”, or uses loaded (and completely inaccurate) terms like Apartheid.

Even 100 websites all quoting the original biased source does not create even one more source.

The fact that this is a “Featured Page” is shameful.

24 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:22:35pm

re: #22 Billy the Weatherman

Dude, Bedouins serve proudly in the IDF.
If there are Bedouin camps in the Negev that are dug up then it is a legal matter not a matter of racism and apartheid.
Personally I feel settlements should be frozen, and perhaps dismantled, but try telling that to a paratrooper in the ‘67 war who fought back the the Jordanians. No country on earth has voluntarily given up so much spear-won territory as Israel has.
Meanwhile, people draw analogies to SA under the whites, but Israeli text books arn’t filled with villifications and racism, unlike their Gazan and P.A. counter-parts
[Link: palwatch.org…]

For Israelis to make concessions there should be rock-soild returns.

25 Billy the Weatherman  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:33:05pm

re: #24 rosiee

Personally settlements should be frozen, but try telling that to a paratrooper in the ‘67 war who fought back the the Jordanians. No country on earth has voluntarily given up so much spear-won territory as Israel has.

Thank you for making it pure and simple: Might Makes Right.

26 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:36:02pm

re: #25 Billy the Weatherman

It was a defensive war you numpty.

27 Billy the Weatherman  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:37:42pm

re: #24 rosiee

Dude, Bedouins serve proudly in the IDF.
If there are Bedouin camps in the Negev that are dug up then it is a legal matter not a matter of racism and apartheid.

you cannot separate the law with matters of racism and apartheid, considering the law can be a weapon to be used to enforce racism and apartheid. For years, Segregation in the south was found to be totally legal and was propped up though the systems of the American Legal system.

28 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:42:25pm

re: #27 Billy the Weatherman

Once again a false analogy.
Israeli law forbids any racism.
No Israeli-Arab takes a separate bus.

29 Billy the Weatherman  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:47:25pm

re: #26 rosiee

that is an ideological statement, considering that it began with an Israel preemptive strike which Most contemporary scholarship equates preventive war with aggression, and therefore argues that it is illegitimate.

but defensive or Offensive, it does not change the fact that your statement was “No country on earth has voluntarily given up so much spear-won territory as Israel has” which is to say that why should Israel give by any of it’s conquered territoriality; ie MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, WOE TO THE CONQUERED.

re: #28 rosiee

Assuming that Israeli Civilian law does apply to Palestinians in the Occupied Territories (it doesn’t) it’s not like Israel has never broken it’s own laws before - No government has ever dared to break it’s own laws.

30 rosiee  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:50:55pm

re: #29 Billy the Weatherman

What a jaded view of the past, the Jordanians made no bones about their goals, at least they had balls to say what they meant openly, unlike sly apologists like yourself.

31 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 12:53:02pm

re: #2 Randall Gross

I noticed this from Jeffrey Goldberg’s tweet:

When I first saw this, I thought it was bullshit.

32 Billy the Weatherman  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 1:57:39pm

re: #30 rosiee

Israel’s attack in ‘67 isn’t seen as fulfilling the criteria of the Caroline test for anticipatory self-defense. Sabre Rattling is not enough criteria for attack. Wither or not Israel’s preemptive strike was just or unjust is still up for interpretation.

33 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 1:59:09pm

re: #24 rosiee

No country on earth has voluntarily given up so much spear-won territory as Israel has.

This is absolute and complete bullshit. The British gave up far more territory. The average war in Europe during the 1500s-1800s wound up with countries giving up larger portions of territory.

Israel has given up land, let’s not get foolishly hyperbolic.

34 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 2:00:53pm

re: #28 rosiee

Once again a false analogy.
Israeli law forbids any racism.
No Israeli-Arab takes a separate bus.

The basis that they’re disallowed on the bus is solely living in Palestine, correct?

35 Aligarr  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 3:02:09pm

re: #30 rosiee

you got Billy the weatherman pegged . let them talk long enough and the faux agenda becomes transparent .

36 Buck  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 5:35:55pm

re: #33 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

This is absolute and complete bullshit. The British gave up far more territory. The average war in Europe during the 1500s-1800s wound up with countries giving up larger portions of territory.

Israel has given up land, let’s not get foolishly hyperbolic.

The key word was ‘voluntarily’. However I will disagree with the phrase ‘spear won’.

Start with the British Mandate and subtract all the land ‘voluntarily’ given up in the name of peace by Israel.

You can’t include European countries that lost land in offensive wars.

37 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 3, 2013 6:10:02pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

This is what I talk about Intifada.

The 1st problem with that is that ‘intifada’ as normally understood means ‘uprising’ and uprisings almost always feature at least some violence. The Montgomery Bus Boycott was just that, a boycott. There were no attacks on buses or on police, even though the police in Montgomery, Alabama in the 1950’s surely deserved to be attacked far more than present-day Israeli soldiers do. Martin Luther King Jr. did not see the boycott he lead as an uprising nor did he explain it to the world as such. Thus the Bus Boycott does not really square in the mind with the term ‘intifada’.

The 2nd problem is the growth of the forces of Radical Islam in the Palestinian territories coupled with the recent use of terror attacks on Israeli civilians. The confluence of these two issues is such that any ‘3rd Intifada’ is going to resemble the 2nd more than the 1st. Too many want to kill and die for what they see as the greater glory of Islam, and the current generation of younger Palestinians have been raised on a steady diet of hate-propaganda. In such circumstances a largely-peaceful rising is extremely unlikely, since any attempt at same will be accompanied by terror attacks that it will not condemn and it will thus be seen (correctly, in my eyes) as just cover for the violent haters.

38 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 4, 2013 8:38:19am

re: #36 Buck

The key word was ‘voluntarily’. However I will disagree with the phrase ‘spear won’.

Start with the British Mandate and subtract all the land ‘voluntarily’ given up in the name of peace by Israel.

You can’t include European countries that lost land in offensive wars.

How about when England gave up all of India that it had conquered voluntarily?

39 Malcolman  Mon, Mar 4, 2013 9:12:53am

re: #30 rosiee

re: #36 Buck

That awkward moment when you find yourself justifying racial segregation.

40 rosiee  Mon, Mar 4, 2013 9:22:45am

re: #39 Malcolman

There really are all races in the world represented in Israel, It’s not racial, it’s a national issue.

41 Flavia  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 10:34:42pm

re: #34 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

The basis that they’re disallowed on the bus is solely living in Palestine, correct?

Impossible, because there is no “Palestine”. The end-run they tried to make around actual negotiations has not actually worked, tho’ everyone acts as if it did - which was, of course, the point.

However, whether it’s true or not, considering the hostile nature of the area, they’d be crazy not to set it up like this.


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