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1 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 1:08:49pm

That is some original thinking. Might make for a good LGF poll.

2 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 1:18:33pm

Fuck no. See my comment at your link (which you probably already have).

His idea of ‘a life of dignity’ does not include the right to political representation. Did we not have a fucking revolution over that?

Two classes of Americans, citizens and non-citizens, is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

3 Destro  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 1:25:18pm

re: #2 wrenchwench

Fuck no. See my comment at your link (which you probably already have).

Two classes of Americans, citizens and non-citizens, is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

We already have 2 classes of Americans in that regard - guest workers and green card holders but I don’t disagree with your point. In fact I honor it’s sentiments.

I am “war gaming” a solution. What if I was the president over a divided legislature with a Republican cock blocking congress? How would I get something passed in a way that would disarm the GOP and the base on a wedge issue like this?

I am not really playing at what is the best policy in the ivory tower scenario. It’s a down and dirty policy that would split the GOP - disarm them with their own racism that the Hispanics will be taking over by easing the fear through denial of citizen for the illegal first generation population as “punishment” for entering illegally.

PS: You didn’t answer if you think this would pass into law? As wrong as it your sensibilities.

4 Destro  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 1:30:44pm

re: #1 Political Atheist

That is some original thinking. Might make for a good LGF poll.

Thank you.

5 shecky  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 1:36:55pm

It’s not clear Jeb’s idea would be useful. I think he proposes it because it’s his idea of conservative charity. He can afford it because he knows it will never come to pass. Lets assume his proposal magically becomes law. No current Republican would actually accept lifetime amnesty, citizenship or not. Because doing so would mean that Republicans are opposed to amnesty for some kind of legalistic reason. This would be a misreading, imo. Republicans are opposed to immigration of dark colored folks, end of story.

Furthermore, there’s a conceit Americans like to indulge that immigrants come for that holy grail called “citizenship”. I think it’s far from clear that immigrants give a damn about citizenship, as long as the government won’t hassle them. Which is the real draw of citizenship-immunity from being deported. All the other rights and responsibilities of citizenship range from “meh” (voting) to “pain in the butt” (jury duty). I’d bet a good percentage of natural born citizens could lose their citizenship today, and never know any different for the rest of their lives. If Jeb’s plan of amnesty with a green card in exchange for giving up the possibility of citizenship were to pan out, I’ll bet most illegal immigrants will shrug and say, “Ok, hand over the green card.”

And I’m sure every modern Republican would be overjoyed, amirite?

6 Destro  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 2:21:19pm

re: #5 shecky

It’s not clear Jeb’s idea would be useful. I think he proposes it because it’s his idea of conservative charity. He can afford it because he knows it will never come to pass. Lets assume his proposal magically becomes law. No current Republican would actually accept lifetime amnesty, citizenship or not. Because doing so would mean that Republicans are opposed to amnesty for some kind of legalistic reason. This would be a misreading, imo. Republicans are opposed to immigration of dark colored folks, end of story.

Furthermore, there’s a conceit Americans like to indulge that immigrants come for that holy grail called “citizenship”. I think it’s far from clear that immigrants give a damn about citizenship, as long as the government won’t hassle them. Which is the real draw of citizenship-immunity from being deported. All the other rights and responsibilities of citizenship range from “meh” (voting) to “pain in the butt” (jury duty). I’d bet a good percentage of natural born citizens could lose their citizenship today, and never know any different for the rest of their lives. If Jeb’s plan of amnesty with a green card in exchange for giving up the possibility of citizenship were to pan out, I’ll bet most illegal immigrants will shrug and say, “Ok, hand over the green card.”

And I’m sure every modern Republican would be overjoyed, amirite?

That plan was mine not Jeb’s as in what if I was running for president or if I was president and I proposed this as a solution?

7 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 7:10:06pm

Upding for original thought and an honest desire to get things done.

8 Destro  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 9:00:12pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

Thanks! I should push my solution to the Palestinian right of return question again.

Deny Palestinians the right to return but restore them their property rights where they would charge rent/lease to Israelis.

This would allow Palestinians to earn an income from their land. Respects property rights and the most subversive part of my fiendish idea - make Palestinians stake holders in the existence of a Jewish homeland in Israel. Suddenly jihad against so called “Zionist invaders” does not look so appealing if they are making you money from their presence.

9 Flavia  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 10:44:24pm

re: #8 Destro

Except that Israel has already tried to compensate them for the lands/property. Everyone who has come forward to take the money has been compensated. Some have tried to claim land that turned out not to be theirs; others refuse to take it, saying they want to “come home” - but since they refuse to recognize Israel, they naturally can’t come back. Israel ended up finally closing the office set up for this a few years back, because there was no work for anyone to do anymore.

Yes, I realize that you said “property rights/charging rent”, but the end result would be the same thing. Those who refuse to take compensation would refuse this set up as well, and for the same reasons.

10 Destro  Tue, Mar 5, 2013 10:50:15pm

Yes, I realize that you said “property rights/charging rent”,

Which is not the same as saying here is a ONE TIME PAYMENT that sells your land to us and ends your ownership of ancesteral land.

Right?

There is a huge difference between a one time compensation for land forfiture vs a lend lease agreement.

And I think that difference is a profound one.

Also, you did not know of my full proposal - payment is NOT refused. If an individual Palestinian refuses payment that money is transfered to the Palestinian govt. This provides an incentive to agree amongst many others.

I think it’s nifty.


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 Frank says:

This is a really nice place. Don't f*ck it up. -- Chrysler Hall, Norfolk, Virginia in the Spring of 1984. A very genteel place to see fine compositions performed live. Usually the opera folks hang out there.