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1 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 11:47:42am

That is an admirable story. We will however not know the world has changed until we read of a Saudi mosque allowing their Christian employees to pray in a mosque, given that there are no churches at all in Saudi.

2 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 12:06:32pm

re: #1 Achilles Tang

That is an admirable story. We will however not know the world has changed until we read of a Saudi mosque allowing their Christian employees to pray in a mosque, given that there are no churches at all in Saudi.

So the world is entirely static until you see change in Saudi Arabia? Got it.

3 Jimmah  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 12:08:50pm
Christina McKay, I learned of your name
How you travelled south from Delny one day
You raised a whole family in one room they say
And the X on the line stands in place of your name

So in the old story I’ll bet that I came
From Gael and Pict and Angle and Dane
And a poor migrant girl who could not write her name
It’s a common old story but it’s mine just the same

All through the story the immigrants came
The Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane
From Pakistan, England and from the Ukraine
We’re all Scotland’s story and we’re all worth the same
Your Scotland’s story is worth just the same

4 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 12:09:25pm

re: #2 wrenchwench

So the world is entirely static until you see change in Saudi Arabia? Got it.

LOL, I was just thinking the same thing: “Boy, are we in big trouble if the world moving forward hinges on what happens in Saudi Arabia.”

5 Jimmah  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 12:09:50pm

re: #1 Achilles Tang

We will however not know the world has changed until we read of a Saudi mosque allowing their Christian employees to pray in a mosque, given that there are no churches at all in Saudi.

No, that will tell us that Saudi has changed.

6 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 12:11:21pm

re: #3 Jimmah

Awesome. ;)

7 Political Atheist  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 12:12:03pm

When your religion tells you to hate, your religion has lost all faith and attachment to God.

8 iceweasel  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 12:19:27pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

Awesome. ;)

I’m so glad you liked that!

9 Destro  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 12:52:12pm

re: #5 Jimmah

I don’t get why a god that loves you would want you to pray in snow. I love my kids but I won’t keep them outside in the snow if they don’t tell me they think I am awesome and not thank me for giving them life several times a day.

Even if my kids wanted to show me how much they loved me by doing something I would insist they come inside from the cold to do it.

10 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 1:38:53pm

re: #2 wrenchwench

So the world is entirely static until you see change in Saudi Arabia? Got it.

You sometimes don’t seem to get much unless spelled out in paragraphs.

11 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 1:40:25pm

re: #4 CuriousLurker

LOL, I was just thinking the same thing: “Boy, are we in big trouble if the world moving forward hinges on what happens in Saudi Arabia.”

re: #5 Jimmah

No, that will tell us that Saudi has changed.

Another literalist interpretation.

12 iceweasel  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 1:55:40pm

re: #11 Achilles Tang

re: #5 Jimmah

Another literalist interpretation.

Was there some way, other than literally, to interpret the words you left?

13 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 1:56:27pm

re: #10 Achilles Tang

You sometimes don’t seem to get much unless spelled out in paragraphs.

If paragraphs will make more sense, you should use them. Did you not mean your words to be taken literally? Then say so.

Frankly, you’ve been kind of an ass in some of your comments about Muslims in the past, so I was not inclined to be generous with my time in trying to figure out what you really might have meant with your comment.

14 Jimmah  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 2:00:19pm

re: #11 Achilles Tang

re: #5 Jimmah

Another literalist interpretation.

You should try writing literally - instead of some (still unidentified) other way we are supposed to somehow guess.

15 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 2:24:36pm

re: #1 Achilles Tang

That is an admirable story. We will however not know the world has changed until we read of a Saudi mosque allowing their Christian employees to pray in a mosque, given that there are no churches at all in Saudi.

re: #10 Achilles Tang

You sometimes don’t seem to get much unless spelled out in paragraphs.

re: #11 Achilles Tang

re: #5 Jimmah

Another literalist interpretation.

You just can’t seem to pass up an opportunity to take a swipe at Muslims, can you? Do you have any idea how smug & obnoxious you come across as? Did you seriously think that prefacing your first comment with, “That is an admirable story,” would make the barb that followed invisible?

I’m really getting sick & tired of putting forth the effort to find decent content and create readable Pages only to have people come by trolling them with snark due their personal biases. If you don’t have something constructive to contribute, why even bother to comment in the first place?

It’s tiresome and more than a little juvenile to do so.

16 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 3:41:30pm

re: #12 Why I Never!

Was there some way, other than literally, to interpret the words you left?

Yes there was. This sensitivity to any critique of Islam is tiresome. We can lambaste Catholics for any number of reasons, or evangelicals for science ignorance, or atheists for being confrontational, but critiquing Islam has become a no no here for some reason.

In this case I comment on the country that is the heart of Islam in many ways, Guardian/Custodian of the holy places as they call themselves. Millions of Muslim visit there every year on Hajj, to a place that would jail any non Muslim if they stepped inside the city limits of Mecca/Medina at any time of the year.

No other religion is allowed to practice there, and this is no hole in the wall backwater.

It would indeed be a world change if that changed, and the millions of Muslims who visit every year from all over the world supported it, instead of accepting their religion’s own bigotry, or insecurity.

This bleeding heart stuff is getting tiresome, and CL, as likable and intelligent a person as she is, needs to get some backbone.

17 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 3:42:51pm

re: #15 CuriousLurker

It was an admirable story and I meant it. You can stuff it.

18 CriticalDragon1177  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 3:52:55pm

CuriousLurker.

How pathetic. This makes me so angry I could just spit.

It makes me feel the same way.

19 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 4:17:58pm

I see no arguments, justifications, defense, against anything I have said. Only dings and spit. That is the problem.

20 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 4:31:24pm

re: #19 Achilles Tang

I see no arguments, justifications, defense, against anything I have said. Only dings and spit. That is the problem.

This is spit:

That is an admirable story. We will however not know the world has changed until …

This is spit:

You sometimes don’t seem to get much unless spelled out in paragraphs.

This is saliva, just waiting to be expectorated:

Another literalist interpretation.

This is crap:

You can stuff it.

No wonder there are dings.

You original comment does not warrant ‘arguments, justifications, defense’. It warrants other comments, which it received and you rejected. You say the story is admirable, but your original comment rejects it as insufficient.

Make an argument for or against something if you want arguments, justifications, and defense.

21 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 4:33:00pm

re: #16 Achilles Tang

This bleeding heart stuff is getting tiresome, and CL, as likable and intelligent a person as she is, needs to get some backbone.

This is fucking bullshit. You are an ass.

22 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 4:41:04pm

re: #21 wrenchwench

This is fucking bullshit. You are an ass.

You illustrate my point well. I take it you and your followers are perfectly happy with the religious discrimination in the home of Islam, apparently supported by Muslims worldwide, but nowhere else.

23 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 4:44:34pm

re: #22 Achilles Tang

You illustrate my point well. I take it you and your followers are perfectly happy with the religious discrimination in the home of Islam, apparently supported by Muslims worldwide, but nowhere else.

Your point is that you are an ass?

I don’t have followers (well, ok, I have 62 followers on Twitter, but I don’t think that’s what you meant).

What have I said that implies I approve of religious discrimination anywhere?

I’m starting to think you are not very smart, just driven by a hatred of religion, which you justify by pointing out the worst examples of religion that you find.

24 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 5:02:24pm

re: #16 Achilles Tang

This bleeding heart stuff is getting tiresome, and CL, as likable and intelligent a person as she is, needs to get some backbone.

re: #17 Achilles Tang

It was an admirable story and I meant it. You can stuff it.

The problem here isn’t lack of backbone or a hypersensitivity to criticism of Islam, it’s your insufferable, boringly predictable, and wholly transparent inability to abide anyone saying anything positive about Islam or Muslims (or religion in general). Whenever someone does, you immediately become churlish and attempt to draw blood from whoever annoyed you with such talk.

Piss off, you hateful old cynic.

25 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 6:17:16pm

It’s very likely that the Muslims in Scotland are there because they didn’t want to live in a place like Saudi Arabia, and didn’t want to be associated with that backwards regime.

Seems like the least we can do is support them.

26 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 6:23:41pm

re: #25 Charles Johnson

It’s very likely that the Muslims in Scotland are there because they didn’t want to live in a place like Saudi Arabia, and didn’t want to be associated with that backwards regime.

Seems like the least we can do is support them.

If you paid attention to what I said originally, I think that was admirable, although CL and company think it wasn’t sincere because I had the temerity to point out that it would be nice if the center of Islam (and it’s millions of visitors) reciprocated the welcome.

I doubt and Muslims in Scotland, and few elsewhere, came from Saudi, but it is a fact that the one place all Muslims strive to visit in their lifetime is the most religiously bigoted one possible; but it seems some here think it is bigotry to point that out.

27 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 6:25:18pm

re: #24 CuriousLurker

re: #17 Achilles Tang

The problem here isn’t lack of backbone or a hypersensitivity to criticism of Islam, it’s your insufferable, boringly predictable, and wholly transparent inability to abide anyone saying anything positive about Islam or Muslims (or religion in general). Whenever someone does, you immediately become churlish and attempt to draw blood from whoever annoyed you with such talk.

Piss off, you hateful old cynic.

You expect fawning support, but you make no defense of the failing of your own faith in regard to what you expect from others.

28 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 6:26:47pm

re: #23 wrenchwench

Your point is that you are an ass?

I don’t have followers (well, ok, I have 62 followers on Twitter, but I don’t think that’s what you meant).

What have I said that implies I approve of religious discrimination anywhere?

I’m starting to think you are not very smart, just driven by a hatred of religion, which you justify by pointing out the worst examples of religion that you find.

I don’t hate religion, just the type of selective bigotry you express.

29 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 6:45:08pm

re: #27 Achilles Tang

You expect fawning support, but you make no defense of the failing of your own faith in regard to what you expect from others.

Fawning support? LOL, sounds like you’re a little jealous.

Saudi Arabia isn’t my faith any more than Israel is the Jewish faith, it’s a country with a bunch of backward Wahhabis calling the shots. I have neither the need nor the desire to defend it.

You claim to have lived & worked in the Gulf for years, so why don’t you defend your hypocritical willingness to accept their money while bitching about how morally reprehensible they are over there.

30 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 6:57:00pm

re: #29 CuriousLurker

I am amazed how you miss what I say so religiously.

I thought your OP was a great example of coexistence, but thought it obvious to point out how one sided it was in the center of your faith. If you have so little respect for Saudi, and Mecca and the Khabba and the way it is managed, with the support of Muslims worldwide (except perhaps Al Qaeda), all you had to do was say so instead of offering spit.

Saudi is not nearly as backward as you think, at least in it’s leadership and middle class.

I will let you rest now. Goodnight.

31 Gus  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:20:40pm

You expect people to respect freedom of religion in the western world and in democracies like Scotland. In Saudi Arabia, not so much. Cripes I remember having this argument several years ago at LGF. We do no base our standards on countries like Saudi Arabia. If you’re going to ignore injustices in your own back yard because of what happens there then we would likely regress ourselves.

32 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:30:25pm

re: #30 Achilles Tang

I am amazed how you miss what I say so religiously.

I thought your OP was a great example of coexistence, but thought it obvious to point out how one sided it was in the center of your faith. If you have so little respect for Saudi, and Mecca and the Khabba and the way it is managed, with the support of Muslims worldwide (except perhaps Al Qaeda), all you had to do was say so instead of offering spit.

Saudi is not nearly as backward as you think, at least in it’s leadership and middle class.

I will let you rest now. Goodnight.

*SIGH* You’re the one who offered spit in the very first comment of this thread.

Why do you persist in twisting things around? You’re not fooling anyone. I didn’t say ALL of Saudi Arabia was backward, I very specifically said the Wahhabis are. Additionally, after 3 years of reading my posts here I find it rather mind boggling that you feign ignorance regarding how I feel about religious bigotry of ANY stripe,

My respect for Mecca & the Kaaba has nothing to do with what political entity is currently governing it or how it’s being managed, and I suspect most Muslims the world over feel similarly. Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation and neither I nor any other non-Saudi Muslim has any say in effecting change there.

Mecca & the Kaaba are physical representations of spiritual symbols with deep & complex meaning to Muslims, however I’m not willing to discuss those things with you for reasons that should by now be obvious.

33 Varek Raith  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:34:38pm

re: #27 Achilles Tang

Blahblahblah, we get it, you hate Islam.
You can stop now.

34 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:36:01pm

re: #19 Achilles Tang

I see no arguments, justifications, defense, against anything I have said. Only dings and spit. That is the problem.

God loves. Man kills. And then he blames it on God. That’s the ultimate reality.

I will be doing my evening prayer office in a few moments. I will offer my intentions for Father Poobalan that he might continue to do what is right.

35 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:37:08pm

re: #16 Achilles Tang

Dude, you’re crossing the line here & moving into Destro territory.

36 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:37:55pm

re: #34 William Barnett-Lewis

God loves. Man kills. And then he blames it on God. That’s the ultimate reality.

I will be doing my evening prayer office in a few moments. I will offer my intentions for Father Poobalan that he might continue to do what is right.

Ditto.

37 Gus  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:42:36pm

The argument was something about the minaret bans in Europe. Which eventually led to something similar to, “oh yeah, try building a Christian church in Saudi Arabia.” My answer to that is “so what?” We are not Saudi Arabia.

And there’s a good secular message here:

Secular India taught me to look at every religion with equal respect. My inheritance and the celebration of religions in India where Hindu, Sikhs, Christians and Muslims celebrate and live side by side, irrespective of colour or creed was a significant factor for my growth,” Rev Poobalan told TOI in an exclusive interview from Aberdeen.

Being secular includes everyone regardless of belief. My being secular understands that people have a right to practice their religion free from harassment. This is just as true as people being able to gather as atheists. We all live together in this society.

Some of this is why I believe we need more atheists to come to the defense of moderate or secular Muslims. This in turn will further secularize immigrants from Islamic countries.

What we want as a society is more secularism which means the inclusion of all. Secularism is not atheism.

38 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:46:09pm

re: #37 Gus

Well said. ;)

39 Gus  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:50:34pm

re: #38 CuriousLurker

Well said. ;)

Thanks. I’m a little worried about Achilles Tang. He seems to be lashing out a lot lately. I know from personal experience that that could be a sign of personal hardship.

40 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:51:29pm

re: #37 Gus

If you’ll pardon the expression, the best thing I have to say to that is…

Amen.

;)

41 Gus  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:52:45pm

re: #40 William Barnett-Lewis

If you’ll pardon the expression, the best thing I have to say to that is…

Amen.

;)

Thanks. Amen!

42 Gus  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:56:14pm

Now you got me listening to Sidney Poitier singing Amen.

43 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:02:31pm

re: #37 Gus

The argument was something about the minaret bans in Europe. Which eventually led to something similar to, “oh yeah, try building a Christian church in Saudi Arabia.” My answer to that is “so what?” We are not Saudi Arabia.

Amen! Testify, brother! ;)

Don’t forget the summer of 2010 and THE GROUND ZERO MEGA MOSQUE OF TERROR!!11!

“There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.” —Newt Gingrich

44 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:04:31pm

CL, You mentioned in your OP emailing the priest. As an Anglican myself I felt I must as well. My words to him were short and simple:

Father Poobalan,

I have read recently of your tribulations as you seek to do the Lord’s work in this world. I wish to thank you and encourage you. I have added you to my personal intentions each day as I pray the daily offices this Lent. By helping all of God’s children pray in they ways they best know you lift all of us up to the Lord.

Kyrie eleison on us all,

Thank you for bringing this story to my attention. I greatly appreciate it.

45 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:07:15pm

re: #44 William Barnett-Lewis

CL, You mentioned in your OP emailing the priest. As an Anglican myself I felt I must as well. My words to him were short and simple:

Thank you for bringing this story to my attention. I greatly appreciate it.

That’s wonderful! I;m so glad you sent him a few lines. I did as well. The world needs more like him.

46 Gus  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:09:15pm

re: #43 CuriousLurker

Amen! Testify, brother! ;)

Don’t forget the summer of 2010 and THE GROUND ZERO MEGA MOSQUE OF TERROR!!11!

It’s like being Catholic I suppose. Comparing Muslims to the conservative clerics of Saudi Arabia and comparing Catholics to the conservatives at the Vatican. Hey, maybe this will help the Saudis evolve faster.

47 Gus  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:16:59pm

…and always thinking about extremist Muslims every time the topic of Islam comes about. Hey, there are extremist Catholics out there. Extremist Jews. Extremist atheists. Poland is a rather severely Catholic nation now. Russia is a rather severely Orthodox nation. Are we going to judge Catholics and the Orthodox for this? I had some Orthodox neighbors once. They were pretty much like hippies.

48 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:18:44pm

re: #46 Gus

It’s like being Catholic I suppose. Comparing Muslims to the conservative clerics of Saudi Arabia and comparing Catholics to the conservatives at the Vatican. Hey, maybe this will help the Saudis evolve faster.

It would be nice if they would evolve faster, the thing is the Saudis aren’t like the Pope—they’re basically just custodians of Mecca & Medina and have they have no effective authority over Muslims worldwide (there is no central authority, it’s sorta like retail politics ;)).

49 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:23:00pm

A little snooping shows that the history of this parish make this stand especially appropriate. en.wikipedia.org gives the history:

The Episcopal congregation in Aberdeen that became St John’s Church began when the Kirk of St Nicholas ejected Rev Dr George Garden in 1693 for refusing to conform to the Presbyterian Establishment. After a spell in exile, he returned to Aberdeen by 1720 and gathered around him the remnants of his flock

It is ironic, to put it mildly, to remember that the Episcopalian church in Scotland is very much a minority church itself. As I said before, God loves…

50 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:24:32pm

re: #49 William Barnett-Lewis

A little snooping shows that the history of this parish make this stand especially appropriate. en.wikipedia.org gives the history:

It is ironic, to put it mildly, to remember that the Episcopalian church in Scotland is very much a minority church itself. As I said before, God loves…

Wow, that’s interesting, thanks! Gonna read it before I go to sleep.

51 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:25:44pm

re: #40 William Barnett-Lewis

re: #41 Gus

Okay, now that we’ve had our liberal atheist-Christian-Muslim tent revival and sung Kumbaya, I can go to sleep with a smile on my face knowing it’ll cause the right-wing cynics to gag. LOL

Have good night, everyone. Thanks for making me smile. ;)

52 Gus  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 8:29:25pm

re: #51 CuriousLurker

re: #41 Gus

Okay, now that we’ve had our liberal atheist-Christian-Muslim tent revival and sung Kumbaya, I can go to sleep with a smile on my face knowing it’ll cause the right-wing cynics to gag. LOL

[Embedded content]

Have good night, everyone. Thanks for making me smile. ;)

:D

53 gwangung  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 9:44:22pm

re: #30 Achilles Tang

Dude, people are telling you that you’re being an idiotic asshole.

Maybe you should pay attention?

54 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 21, 2013 10:10:56pm

re: #28 Achilles Tang

I don’t hate religion, just the type of selective bigotry you express.

What is my bigotry?

55 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 5:28:54am

re: #1 Achilles Tang

That is an admirable story. We will however not know the world has changed until we read of a Saudi mosque allowing their Christian employees to pray in a mosque, given that there are no churches at all in Saudi.

Your second sentence has nothing to do with your first.

56 CuriousLurker  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 6:43:26am

re: #54 wrenchwench

What is my bigotry?

bigotry (big-uh-tre)

noun, plural  bigotries
1. Disagreement with someone on the grounds that their criticism of Islam is arbitrary and completely gratuitous given the context of the topic at hand.

//

57 SidewaysQuark  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 8:35:58am

re: #9 Destro

I don’t get why a god that loves you would want you to pray in snow. I love my kids but I won’t keep them outside in the snow if they don’t tell me they think I am awesome and not thank me for giving them life several times a day.

Even if my kids wanted to show me how much they loved me by doing something I would insist they come inside from the cold to do it.

Pray in snow? Pffft. I’m more concerned about the god who would abandon his child to an eternity of torture over theological disagreements.

58 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 8:39:28am

re: #56 CuriousLurker

bigotry (big-uh-tre)

noun, plural  bigotries
1. Disagreement with someone on the grounds that their criticism of Islam is arbitrary and completely gratuitous given the context of the topic at hand.

//

Big-o-tree:

Image: 9026%2Bw%2Bhuahui%2Bon%2Btree%2Bgd.JPG

See also: Big-ass Tree

59 CuriousLurker  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 8:45:06am

re: #58 wrenchwench

Big-o-tree:

Image: 9026%2Bw%2Bhuahui%2Bon%2Btree%2Bgd.JPG

See also: Big-ass Tree

Whoa! Gorgeous.

60 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 9:17:31am

re: #59 CuriousLurker

Whoa! Gorgeous.

As is your Page.

You highlight a story about a nice person who does good things, and gets denigrated by internet trolls. Then your Page becomes a mirror of that story, on a smaller scale. There’s a sad part, but a certain beauty in the symmetry. There’s a kind of magic to it too. You didn’t have control after you put it out there. You let it go, and it happened.

Art doesn’t just imitate life. Life is art, and vice-versa.

61 CuriousLurker  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 9:26:42am

re: #60 wrenchwench

As is your Page.

You highlight a story about a nice person who does good things, and gets denigrated by internet trolls. Then your Page becomes a mirror of that story, on a smaller scale. There’s a sad part, but a certain beauty in the symmetry. There’s a kind of magic to it too. You didn’t have control after you put it out there. You let it go, and it happened.

Thanks. I hadn’t really thought about the mirror aspect of it—good insight.

Art doesn’t just imitate life. Life is art, and vice-versa.

QFT. That’s a keeper. ;)

62 CuriousLurker  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 9:44:58am

re: #58 wrenchwench

I just went to Google Images to look for that tree photo and see if there was any mention of where it is. The “visit page” link took me to a blog post that didn’t use the image, but contained a beautiful poem about a tree:

Bajo tu sombra

Arbolito, arbolito
que disfrutas el viento
arbolito, arbolito
que disfrutas el sol
la lluvia alegra tus ojos
te acompañan el girasol
las rosas y el clavel…
El sol y la lluvia te acarician
con ternura te dan vida
tu crecer ellos propicia…
t crecer ellos propician..
arbolito bajo tu sombra
anhelados sueños forjé
algunos fueron realizados
otros quedaron olvidados
tu presencia fue mi esperanza
mi fiel compañero has sido
a tu lado he vivido
torbellino de emociones….

“Art doesn’t just imitate life. Life is art, and vice-versa.”
—wrenchwench

:)

63 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 9:51:34am

re: #62 CuriousLurker

I just went to Google Images to look for that tree photo and see if there was any mention of where it is. The “visit page” link took me to a blog post that didn’t use the image, but contained a beautiful poem about a tree:

“Art doesn’t just imitate life. Life is art, and vice-versa.”
—wrenchwench

:)

Nice! I can read some of it, and got some google translate help with the rest.

Here’s the source of my big-ass tree.

64 CuriousLurker  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 9:53:20am

re: #63 wrenchwench

Nice! I can read some of it, and got some google translate help with the rest.

Here’s the source of my big-ass tree.

Thanks!

65 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:08:42pm

re: #33 Varek Raith

Blahblahblah, we get it, you hate Islam.
You can stop now.

You don’t get bullshit. I don’t hate any religion, but unlike many here I don’t consider them immune from criticism, and in particular I don’t consider Islam more immune than any other which I get the impression is becoming the hypocritical rule here.

66 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:11:31pm

re: #65 Achilles Tang

You don’t get bullshit. I don’t hate any religion, but unlike many here I don’t consider them immune from criticism, and in particular I don’t consider Islam more immune than any other which I get the impression is becoming the hypocritical rule here.

Who here considers Islam immune from criticism?

67 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:15:07pm

re: #37 Gus

My being secular understands that people have a right to practice their religion free from harassment.

Critique is not harassment, except in the mind of someone very insecure in their belief, or someone like you wanting to suck up with feelgood comments.

Saudi Arabia, by the way, again, is not just another country. It is the home of Islam and it’s most important sites, but you know that, you just don’t like to argue simple points.

68 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:17:26pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

Who here considers Islam immune from criticism?

When people like you react with indignation instead of argument, I would say you do.

It’s not as if I drew a cartoon. That would have been a terrible thing to do./

69 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:23:35pm

re: #56 CuriousLurker

bigotry (big-uh-tre)

noun, plural  bigotries
1. Disagreement with someone on the grounds that their criticism of Islam is arbitrary and completely gratuitous given the context of the topic at hand.

//

That’s a really stupid post. The topic at hand was inter religious tolerance. My only point was to mention the need for more reciprocity which is entire in context.

70 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:24:22pm

re: #68 Achilles Tang

When people like you react with indignation instead of argument, I would say you do.

It’s not as if I drew a cartoon. That would have been a terrible thing to do./

Just because I find your comments useless and/or offensive does not mean I think Islam is immune from criticism. You yourself are not immune from criticism either.

Acting like a sarcastic twit doesn’t help anything either.

71 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:24:54pm

re: #69 Achilles Tang

That’s a really stupid post. The topic at hand was inter religious tolerance. My only point was to mention the need for more reciprocity which is entire in context.

Then maybe you could tell me what you see as my bigotry.

72 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:25:23pm

re: #34 William Barnett-Lewis

God loves. Man kills. And then he blames it on God. That’s the ultimate reality.

How trite.

73 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:30:08pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

Then maybe you could tell me what you see as my bigotry.

Did I call you a bigot? If I did that would have been a bad choice of word.

What do you call anyone who reacts with indignation at the suggestion of criticism, and finds personal slight, or insult, where none is intended?

74 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:34:43pm

Hey CL, I think it is time to end this. I am sorry to see you become just another dingalinger. You have said in this thread that you essentially agree with me about the religious bigotry of the laws in Saudi, the home of Islam, yet you simultaneously take offense at my critique of that.

Typical cognitive dissonance.

75 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:35:27pm

re: #65 Achilles Tang

You don’t get bullshit. I don’t hate any religion, but unlike many here I don’t consider them immune from criticism, and in particular I don’t consider Islam more immune than any other which I get the impression is becoming the hypocritical rule here.

But it’s not. No clue why you’re saying it is. If someone had opened up the first post of something about some Catholic church doing charity, people would also give someone shit if they immediately pissed on it and said that they don’t care because of child abuse.

76 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:36:31pm

re: #74 Achilles Tang

Hey CL, I think it is time to end this. I am sorry to see you become just another dingalinger. You have said in this thread that you essentially agree with me about the religious bigotry of the laws in Saudi, the home of Islam, yet you simultaneously take offense at my critique of that.

Typical cognitive dissonance.

It’s not the critique, it’s the placement of the critique. The topic of the thread has fuck-all to do with Saudi Arabia, so why are you talking about Saudi Arabia?

77 CuriousLurker  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:37:44pm

re: #74 Achilles Tang

Hey CL, I think it is time to end this. I am sorry to see you become just another dingalinger. You have said in this thread that you essentially agree with me about the religious bigotry of the laws in Saudi, the home of Islam, yet you simultaneously take offense at my critique of that.

Typical cognitive dissonance.

I don’t give a damn what your opinion of me is. You can end this any time you like by simply walking away, but it seems your ego won’t let you.

78 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:43:59pm

re: #73 Achilles Tang

Did I call you a bigot? If I did that would have been a bad choice of word.

What do you call anyone who reacts with indignation at the suggestion of criticism, and finds personal slight, or insult, where none is intended?

You don’t even read your own posts.

You don’t care enough to have a considered conversation. I think you just came here to poke CL. What a jerk.

79 CuriousLurker  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 3:53:38pm

re: #78 wrenchwench

You don’t even read your own posts.

You don’t care enough to have a considered conversation. I think you just came here to poke CL. What a jerk.

He’s just a garden variety ankle biter.

80 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 22, 2013 9:11:14pm

re: #72 Achilles Tang

How trite.

Truth often is. That’s how people keep allowing themselves to ignore it.

81 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:39:55pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

Who here considers Islam immune from criticism?

Why do you answer questions with inane questions?

82 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:41:12pm

re: #80 William Barnett-Lewis

Truth often is. That’s how people keep allowing themselves to ignore it.

Truth is not trite. Your trite comment was trite.

83 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:43:22pm

re: #81 Achilles Tang

Why do you answer questions with inane questions?

I didn’t. Once again, you did not read your own comment. It was not a question. It was a statement. Specifically, an assertion. I was asking what it was based on.

Is something wrong? Are you having some kind of trouble that makes conversing in this format difficult?

84 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:47:16pm

re: #78 wrenchwench

You don’t even read your own posts.

You don’t care enough to have a considered conversation. I think you just came here to poke CL. What a jerk.

I meant that you sounded like you consider me a bigot for having a critical opinion. What you think is wrong. I thought, and did until recently, that CL was an intelligent and rational spokesperson for the 21st century of Islam. Unfortunately I find that this was not entirely right. The kneejerk reactions I experience here, and which are no doubt having hilarious reactions at the wingnut stalker blogs, is giving me grief.

85 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:51:46pm

re: #83 wrenchwench

I didn’t. Once again, you did not read your own comment. It was not a question. It was a statement. Specifically, an assertion. I was asking what it was based on.

Is something wrong? Are you having some kind of trouble that makes conversing in this format difficult?

Which comment? Conversation is easier if you use appropriate quotes.

As to what is wrong, I suggest it is your inability to discuss the vast tensions and disagreement within that amorphous thing called Islam; without taking it personally.

86 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:53:28pm

re: #84 Achilles Tang

I meant that you sounded like you consider me a bigot for having a critical opinion. What you think is wrong. I thought, and did until recently, that CL was an intelligent and rational spokesperson for the 21st century of Islam. Unfortunately I find that this was not entirely right. The kneejerk reactions I experience here, and which are no doubt having hilarious reactions at the wingnut stalker blogs, is giving me grief.

You sound like a bigot when you offer your critical opinion of Saudi religious life on a post that has nothing to do with that (other than Islam being involved). It’s like bringing up the Crusades every time someone mentions a Christian holiday. Only someone with a mean agenda would do that.

I think you could post a Page about Saudi Arabia and religious life there and not be picked on. But if you titled it “Why Islam is Bad”, then you would be (rightly) criticized.

Does that make sense?

87 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:57:29pm

re: #84 Achilles Tang

I meant that you sounded like you consider me a bigot for having a critical opinion. What you think is wrong. I thought, and did until recently, that CL was an intelligent and rational spokesperson for the 21st century of Islam. Unfortunately I find that this was not entirely right. The kneejerk reactions I experience here, and which are no doubt having hilarious reactions at the wingnut stalker blogs, is giving me grief.

Who gives a damn what the stalkers think? The sole purpose of existence of their little pigsty is to ridicule everyone here 24/7. You’re an even bigger idiot than I’d imagined if you’re concerning yourself with what they say. Or perhaps you’re performing for them and that’s why you’re bringing them up.

88 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:57:33pm

re: #85 Achilles Tang

Which comment? Conversation is easier if you use appropriate quotes.

As to what is wrong, I suggest it is your inability to discuss the vast tensions and disagreement within that amorphous thing called Islam; without taking it personally.

In your #81, you responded to my #66, which was a response to your #65.

You can click on the blue number in a comment that responds to a previous comment, and that previous comment will pop up in its own window. In that popup, if it was responding to an earlier comment, you can click on and read that one too. It’s incredibly easy to follow the conversation that way.

I’m not taking this personally. Do you want me to?

89 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 3:59:25pm

re: #77 CuriousLurker

I don’t give a damn what your opinion of me is. You can end this any time you like by simply walking away, but it seems your ego won’t let you.

I have had a considerably high opinion of you, and so some extent still do. You have intelligence and a high standard of ethics and even insights; but I would say that your “problem” in this forum is that you seem to think you are the voice of Islam, not just a modern version of it, and you react with the usual kneejerks when anyone seem to attack your faith, even when it is clearly meant for the worst dimensions of that, as we often do here for the same extremes of Christianity, without the reactions seen from you and, dare I say, your dittoheads.

90 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:03:51pm

re: #89 Achilles Tang

I have had a considerably high opinion of you, and so some extent still do. You have intelligence and a high standard of ethics and even insights; but I would say that your “problem” in this forum is that you seem to think you are the voice of Islam, not just a modern version of it, and you react with the usual kneejerks when anyone seem to attack your faith, even when it is clearly meant for the worst dimensions of that, as we often do here for the same extremes of Christianity, without the reactions seen from you and, dare I say, your dittoheads.

Your comment does not reflect the reality of what I read here. I see no ‘kneejerks’, no ‘dittoheads’, and no evidence that anyone sees themself as the voice for any other person or group of people.

91 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:09:19pm

re: #89 Achilles Tang

I have had a considerably high opinion of you, and so some extent still do. You have intelligence and a high standard of ethics and even insights; but I would say that your “problem” in this forum is that you seem to think you are the voice of Islam, not just a modern version of it, and you react with the usual kneejerks when anyone seem to attack your faith, even when it is clearly meant for the worst dimensions of that, as we often do here for the same extremes of Christianity, without the reactions seen from you and, dare I say, your dittoheads.

I’ll repeat what I said yesterday, I don’t give a damn what your opinion of me is. No one here is my “dittohead”, FFS. It’s been 2+ days and you STILL can’t leave it alone—everyone else had either changed the subject or moved on, yet here you are again. Your enormously fragile ego in is direct inverse proportion to your incredibly narrow little mind.

92 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:10:08pm

re: #86 wrenchwench

You sound like a bigot when you offer your critical opinion of Saudi religious life on a post that has nothing to do with that (other than Islam being involved). It’s like bringing up the Crusades every time someone mentions a Christian holiday. Only someone with a mean agenda would do that.

I think you could post a Page about Saudi Arabia and religious life there and not be picked on. But if you titled it “Why Islam is Bad”, then you would be (rightly) criticized.

Does that make sense?

No it doesn’t make sense, in anything but the most literal narrow interpretation.

Our discussions here range from the most intellectual to the most inane at the drop of a coin. Nothing is sacred, nor should it be. Show me one thread (no please don’t try) that has stayed “religiously” on topic from beginning to end.

I have already answered the rest of your question in this thread, more than once, but for some reason you seem not to have see that.

What I need to ask you is why could you not?

There is no more important issue about interfaith relations than reciprocity. I comment on the other side of the equation in a post about one side.

How can you not see that?

Could it be because you discount my opinion because you know that I know there is no god, or gods?

93 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:12:09pm

re: #91 CuriousLurker

I’ll repeat what I said yesterday, I don’t give a damn what your opinion of me is. No one here is my “dittohead”, FFS. It’s been 2+ days and you STILL can’t leave it alone—everyone else had either changed the subject or moved on, yet here you are again. Your enormously fragile ego in is direct inverse proportion to your incredibly narrow little mind.

OK. My opinion is evolving. Clearly yours is not. I’m sorry.

94 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:14:45pm

This like the old days when we had real agreement/disagreement. I should get a thousand dings (any way you like them) just for the inanity of the thread. :)

95 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:18:13pm

re: #92 Achilles Tang

Could it be because you discount my opinion because you know that I know there is no god, or gods?

Not likely. I’m an atheist myself.

No it doesn’t make sense, in anything but the most literal narrow interpretation.

We should stick with narrow, literal interpretations. Why go afield from those?

Our discussions here range from the most intellectual to the most inane at the drop of a coin.

This is a Page, not a front page post over 100 comments.

There is no more important issue about interfaith relations than reciprocity. I comment on the other side of the equation in a post about one side.

That’s what’s sometimes called ‘Magical Balance Fairy’, but in this case, you’re taking a Page about a positive aspect of Islam and a negative reaction to it, and making comments that discuss neither, in order to say that you won’t recognize any positive aspects of Islam until you see reciprocity in Saudi Arabia. I don’t see any reason to do that other than to poke CL, or to imply that there can be no positive things about Islam. But you don’t want to say that directly, it seems.

96 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:18:45pm

re: #90 wrenchwench

Your comment does not reflect the reality of what I read here. I see no ‘kneejerks’, no ‘dittoheads’, and no evidence that anyone sees themself as the voice for any other person or group of people.

Why do you keep replying with quotes for CL?

That is one definition of dittohead (although I apologize for using a Limbaugh created label).

97 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:19:25pm

re: #94 Achilles Tang

This like the old days when we had real agreement/disagreement. I should get a thousand dings (any way you like them) just for the inanity of the thread. :)

I think your goal is inanity and diversion and causing hurt feelings.

I’m done replying to you. There is no value to be had in it.

98 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:22:30pm

re: #96 Achilles Tang

Why do you keep replying with quotes for CL?

Because I can. But now I won’t. Bye.

99 CuriousLurker  Sat, Mar 23, 2013 4:23:08pm

re: #96 Achilles Tang

Why do you keep replying with quotes for CL?

That is one definition of dittohead (although I apologize for using a Limbaugh created label).

Alright, I’ve had enough of your asshattery. I’m going to end your obnoxious, idiotic performance by shutting down this Page until the commenting window has expired, then I’ll reinstate it when you no longer have the ability to lift up your leg and piss on it.

You’re no longer even worth the effort to down-ding—you just disappeared off the face of the earth as far as I’m concerned.


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