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1 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 12, 2013 7:25:50pm

The “America and Russia are morally equivalent” gambit: That one’s older than I am, and I remember it from back in the 1980’s (though Russia was then part of the USSR). It was bullshit then and its bullshit now.

Downding.

2 Destro  Fri, Apr 12, 2013 8:42:01pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

How many wars of choice has Russia started since the fall of the USSR vs the ones the USA started? Also, why does no such list exist for Saudi Arabian abusers? And any moral authority the USA has went out the window when the USA still has the death penalty (Russia does not), USA jails more people than any other industrialized nation outside of China and when the USA opened Gitmo, black centers and torture chambers. It may have been bullshit then, old timer, but it is not bullshit now.

3 Aligarr  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 6:05:49am

Dead on Destro . Do as I say , not as I do .

4 Political Atheist  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 10:12:30am
PS: No such sanctions exist for the Chinese further eroding any claim the USA is an impartial human rights advocate.

Oh FFS. Have you never heard of Tibet?!

5 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 2:41:55pm

re: #4 Political Atheist

This will likely be the only time I defend Destro, but what does the US Government do on Tibet and Uyghurstan? Nothing really. Certainly many US citizens do activism over these areas, but the Government largely ignores it.

The US has lost its way in the Cold War. Instead of doing the ideological fight over Human Rights, we did it over economic systems and money, very rarely giving a damn about Human Rights. This is evident under Nixon and Reagan especially.

Hell, the US Treasury contributed to the Breakup of Yugoslavia because they felt reticent to aid a nation that would remain heavily socialized. Treasury at the time held more sway than State, even though they were very tin-eared over the possible consequences. This, of course, led to the Bosnian War, where a Bosnia trapped between two effectively fascist states (something close to Strasserism in both cases.) And the Bosnians suffered massively for being a stunningly poor place geographically.

However, Human Rights wise, we are better than Russia. Gay Rights for one. And as a Muslim, I feel safer here than I would in Russia. Not to mention corruption that makes ours look small, and assassination of journalists. But we are a far stretch from Scandinavia.

6 Destro  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 4:35:45pm

re: #4 Political Atheist

Oh FFS. Have you never heard of Tibet?!

What sanctions exist against Chinese for Tibet?

7 Destro  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 6:10:00pm

re: #5 ProBosniaLiberal

Islam is one of the official religions of Russia. As a Muslim you would probably be a victim of Islamist on Muslim violence.

8 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 6:52:32pm

re: #2 Destro

How many wars of choice has Russia started since the fall of the USSR vs the ones the USA started?

Basically the same number. Two wars in Chechnya, the second lasting ten years and two wars with Georgia over Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

9 Destro  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 7:02:47pm

re: #8 goddamnedfrank

Basically the same number. Two wars in Chechnya, the second lasting ten years and two wars with Georgia over Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Fail. Chechnya was within Russia’s recognized borders and was not a war of choice in that the Russia did not start the war. In Abkhazia the Russians backed one side in a Civil war but no direct combat and in South Ossetia the Russians were attacked by Georgia while serving as UN approved peace keeping force. So those are not examples of “wars of Choice”.

guardian.co.uk

War in South Ossetia: Georgia started it

In any case, those are areas in Russia’s former territories on her border. Iraq for example was never a state of the USA and half a world away.

10 Political Atheist  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 7:15:53pm

re: #6 Destro
re: #5 ProBosniaLiberal

None, which tells me how crappy a measure this is.

11 Destro  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 8:10:48pm

re: #10 Political Atheist

This was done to get at Russia over foreign policy conflicts with the USA disguised as concern for human rights. Nothing more or less. If we are to use human rights as a tool of diplomacy, at this point in time, we should be consistent and we should be blemish free or it looks obvious.

12 Gus  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 9:06:15pm

The list started out as 60 Russians I believe. Putin retaliated by banning American adoptions of Russia children or approximately 3,000 Russian children per year who will now be destined to live in orphanages until they become adults. Incidentally, that list was whittled down to 18.

Russia also retaliated by banning travel to 18 Americans as indicated here.

Putin is now considering laws against blasphemy. I guess this will add to the Russian commitment to jail dissidents. The anti-American propaganda WRT to Gitmo is nothing new and has been part of the propaganda campaign carried out by Russia Today. That amongst others.

Oh, and that article is cut off and continues as such:

An unnamed Russian source told ITAR-TASS that Moscow’s counter-measures would be “symmetrical” and should be expected by Saturday.

The latest downturn prompted the US general nominated to take over as NATO commander to admit that the “reset” in relations that US President Barack Obama agreed with his former counterpart Dmitry Medvedev in 2009 had hit a “pause”.

“Russia will remain the primary actor of regional concern through 2020,” General Philip Breedlove told the US Senate Armed Services Committee.

The Kremlin has further expressed repeated concern at US plans to deploy a missile defence shield over Europe that Russia fears may make its own nuclear arsenal obsolete.

Yet Washington needs Moscow’s support on such vital international issues as the Syria crisis and the ongoing standoff around North Korea.

These and another topics will be on the agenda when US National Security Advisor Tom Donilon visits Moscow for talks Tuesday with his Russian counterpart Nikolai Patrushev.

Kremlin spokesman Peskov said there was a possibility that Donilon would also have a chance to briefly meet Putin as well.

The protests against Putin will continue. I guess some people have already forgotten the massive protests held against Putin a couple of years ago. Other than that we have good cooperation in the space program. Anti-American and anti-Russian propagandists will try and blow this out of proportion.

13 Destro  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 10:31:08pm

re: #12 Gus

The Russian ban on American adoption had to do with Americans abusing and killing adopted kids and predates this so called list.

This list was thought up by some think tank and passed in congress via special interests to get at Russia over foreign policy conflicts near and dear to foreign policy hawks disguised as concern for human rights. Nothing more or less. If we are to use human rights as a tool of diplomacy, at this point in time, we should be consistent and we should be blemish free or it looks obvious. Those 18 Americans are clearly war criminals.

The Russians contemplating so called “anti-blasphemy” laws make sense in a nation with inter ethnic and inter religious strife. All it takes is one asshole to burn a Koran and we have thousands dead.

American ignorance about what exists overseas versus their own sheltered and ignorant world view on display right here.

14 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Apr 13, 2013 11:42:32pm

re: #7 Destro

Really? So what the fuck is going on in Chechnya and Dagestan?

Again, you seem to be alot like Geller.

15 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 14, 2013 3:58:56am

re: #13 Destro

And here’s the Anti-Americanism, right on schedule. You clearly don’t get how anti-blasphemy laws are used by clerics (of any religion) who want to stir up trouble or by people who are just plain fanatical: They just trump charges up or magnify an innocent act out of proportion. Then they demand that the state punish the “Vile Other” or they’ll riot. That’s how it works in Pakistan, and PLL will back me up on that score.

No, laws against blasphemy are a bad idea. Free speech is the better policy. In any case, this isn’t really about preventing communal strife: This is about Putin’s support of the Russian Orthodox Church, and Pussy Riot’s attack on same. Putin say that as a challenge to his power, and now he plans to change the law to ensure he is not challenged in that way again.

16 Destro  Sun, Apr 14, 2013 5:09:06am

re: #14 ProBosniaLiberal

Really? So what the fuck is going on in Chechnya and Dagestan?

Again, you seem to be alot like Geller.

What’s going on is Islamists hijacked a nationalist cause in the Caucuses and backed by America’s ally Saudi Arabia introduced Wahabisim when the local brand of Islam was Sufi influenced.

17 Destro  Sun, Apr 14, 2013 5:12:53am

re: #15 Dark_Falcon

That’s why people like you should have zero influence over foreign policy. When the pictures of the Muslim prophet were drawn the Russia reaction was to start to figure out how to prevent a local occurrence because of their inter religious communities and the potential for violence between them. This is not Putin setting up a theocracy. It is similar to the Germans banning Scientology because of the unique issues Germany has with the rise of Nazis. To American sensibilities it’s wrong but it does make sense (not condoning it) for what these nations are going through.

18 Aligarr  Sun, Apr 14, 2013 7:35:58am

We take American hubris and then rub the Russian’s noses in it . We support regimes , that commit more egregious human rights violations than Russia.

19 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 14, 2013 8:51:42am

re: #18 Aligarr

Opposing corruption is “hubris”, is it? That’s most of the purpose of the block list in the US. Creating a parallel list with people like John Yoo on it is Putin’s attempt to change the issue. It’s the foreign policy equivalent of shouting “SQUIRREL!”.

20 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Apr 14, 2013 10:01:29am

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

There are things in the Cold War and afterwards we haven’t faced up to. I think you could admit that.

However, again, need to point out that, at least with the First Chechnya War, Saudi’s involvement was minimal. And there is massive anti-Central Asian racism in Russia right now.

I stand by my statement about the US being better for me, as a Muslim.

21 KingKenrod  Mon, Apr 15, 2013 6:49:50am

Destro, I can understand your resorting pro-Putin propaganda because of the anti-American angle, but now I’m starting to think you’re a fan.

22 Destro  Mon, Apr 15, 2013 10:11:54am

re: #21 KingKenrod

Destro, I can understand your resorting pro-Putin propaganda because of the anti-American angle, but now I’m starting to think you’re a fan.

I am a fan of Putin’s anti-Americanism. I enjoy Putin’s cockblocking of American foreign policy goals with great glee and I am sure this cockblocking is the real reason the Military Industrial Foreign Policy Complex in Congress passes these anti-Russia laws rather than some concern America has for human rights.

Using human rights as a propaganda weapon has been the USA’s thing since the start of the Cold War (and the USSR would of course point to the Civil Rights record as push back) but this tool of diplomacy has lost it’s edge for the USA since Iraq and since the USA became China’s biggest trading partner and since it started basing troops in Saudi Arabia.

23 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 15, 2013 9:14:35pm

re: #22 Destro

Fine, you’ve just proven yourself a tyrant loving shithead.

24 Gus  Mon, Apr 15, 2013 9:32:50pm
25 Destro  Tue, Apr 16, 2013 6:16:40am

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

Fine, you’ve just proven yourself a tyrant loving shithead.

Let me know when Putin starts as many wars and gets as many people killed as the freedom loving Americans have these last decades.

26 Destro  Tue, Apr 16, 2013 6:17:37am

re: #24 Gus

Minus for any Disco music.


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