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1 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 6:31:39pm

Dawkins has a lot more name recognition than most of the rest of these guys.

2 SidewaysQuark  Sun, Apr 28, 2013 10:43:02pm

I like Dawkins, but honestly, it doesn’t take a lot of “thinking” to realize religion is 100% bunk. I think an “unbridled honesty” award would be more suiting.

3 Jimmah  Mon, Apr 29, 2013 1:48:51am

In case anyone missed it:

To qualify for this year’s world thinkers rankings, it was not enough to have written a seminal book, inspired an intellectual movement or won a Nobel prize several years ago (hence the absence from the 65-strong long list of ageing titans such as Noam Chomsky or Edward O Wilson); the selectors’ remit ruthlessly insisted on “influence over the past 12 months” and “significance to the year’s biggest questions”.

4 rosiee  Mon, Apr 29, 2013 9:28:01am

Dawkins is two faced, during his Al Jazeera interview he stood by his assertion that the Old Testiment’s God was brutal and bloodthirsty, yet during the debate with Rabbi Sacks, the chief Rabbi of England he said “I was joking.”

Sacks/Dawkins

Dawkins on al Jazeera

When asked by the al Jazeera interviewer: “What about the God of the Koran..” He says “the God of the Koran I don’t know about” So he knows about the Old Testament God? Which Yeshiva did Dawkins go to, doesn’t take much to pick up a Koran and read it, no more difficult than picking up a King James. Why does he presume to have more knowledge of the Jewish God than others? What is his obsession?

Maybe Rabbi Sacks is right, Dawkins might have a bit of a hate for Jews.

5 JeffFX  Mon, Apr 29, 2013 10:12:53am

re: #4 rosiee

The old testament God IS brutal and bloodthirsty
God’s reflect the culture that imagined them

6 JeffFX  Mon, Apr 29, 2013 10:16:01am

re: #2 SidewaysQuark

I like Dawkins, but honestly, it doesn’t take a lot of “thinking” to realize religion is 100% bunk. I think an “unbridled honesty” award would be more suiting.

Most people are unable to overcome their local superstitions, so it does require a kind of thinking most can’t manage

7 Jimmah  Mon, Apr 29, 2013 10:44:47am

re: #4 rosiee

Dawkins is two faced, during his Al Jazeera interview he stood by his assertion that the Old Testiment’s God was brutal and bloodthirsty, yet during the debate with Rabbi Sacks, the chief Rabbi of England he said “I was joking.”

No he didn’t. He justified the comment.

The video does show Sack’s ludicrous attempts to paint Dawkins as an antisemite when he is nothing of the sort. Sadly this is the kind of shabby, morally bankrupt tactic we see all too often from religious apologists.

Shame on you for joining in.

When asked by the al Jazeera interviewer: “What about the God of the Koran..” He says “the God of the Koran I don’t know about” So he knows about the Old Testament God? Which Yeshiva did Dawkins go to, doesn’t take much to pick up a Koran and read it, no more difficult than picking up a King James. Why does he presume to have more knowledge of the Jewish God than others? What is his obsession?

It’s simply untrue that Dawkins only criticises Christianity and Judaism, as anyone familiar with Dawkins writings and broadcasts, including the very debate you just linked to knows.

8 Mar  Mon, Apr 29, 2013 1:59:36pm

Dawkins is not an anti-Semite. How ridiculous!

9 palomino  Mon, Apr 29, 2013 4:13:18pm

re: #8 Mar

Dawkins is not an anti-Semite. How ridiculous!

This isn’t Twitter. Here you can actually elaborate and try to make cogent points (with things like facts, quotes, links, a fully formed opinion, whatever). Better luck next time.

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 4:50:14am

So what has Dawkins done in the last twelve months? I mostly follow him by the screams of outrage in his wake. In the last twelve months, he pissed off Sacks, announced on Twitter that Islam is the ‘greatest force for evil today’, and engaged in some sophistry, also on Twitter about how important fetal pain is, which led some feminists to wonder how much he’s actually keeping up in his official academic field.

Anything I missed?

11 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 4:58:44am

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

WELCOME BACK!!

WE MISSED YOU!!

{{SFZ}}

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 4:59:54am

re: #11 Vicious Babushka

WELCOME BACK!!

WE MISSED YOU!!

{{SFZ}}

Just dropping by. {Babushka}.

13 Jimmah  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 5:15:06am

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

So what has Dawkins done in the last twelve months? I mostly follow him by the screams of outrage in his wake. In the last twelve months, he pissed off Sacks, announced on Twitter that Islam is the ‘greatest force for evil today’, and engaged in some sophistry, also on Twitter about how important fetal pain is, which led some feminists to wonder how much he’s actually keeping up in his official academic field.

Anything I missed?

Er, how about the ongoing fight against creationism and other manifestations of religious/superstition inspired ignorance?

Been pretty active in that as always, and for some people, fortunately I would say, that is considered important, more important than hurt feelings of the “he insulted my precious beliefs” sort.

14 Jimmah  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 5:23:22am

My Dad has just arrived and will be staying for a few days so I won’t be around much, but I’ll be back later in the week to see what the inevitable tide of butthurt washed up.

(I’m guessing it will take the form of some sort of attempt to launch a War On Richard Dawkins on LGF by some people)

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 7:21:24am

re: #14 Jimmah

My Dad has just arrived and will be staying for a few days so I won’t be around much, but I’ll be back later in the week to see what the inevitable tide of butthurt washed up.

(I’m guessing it will take the form of some sort of attempt to launch a War On Richard Dawkins on LGF by some people)

BUTTHURT! It’s a floor wax! It’s a dessert topping!

OK, now that we’ve established the butthurt, let me just state for the record that someone who said these sorts of things about Islam:

loonwatch.com

who was not Richard Dawkins, would get a less warm reception at LGF.

Pat Condell is persona non grata. Why is Dawkins, who says of Condell:

“I am not in favour of banning the burqa, because I am not in favour banning any style of clothing. But I think Pat is right to compare the burqa with a Ku Klux Klan hood or a swastika armband (which shouldn’t be banned either). I think he is right to speak of Islamic fascism, I think he is right to condemn the use of the word ‘Islamophobia’….I think Islam is probably the greatest of all man-made evils in the world today. It takes courage to speak out against it. Pat has that courage. He will be making enough enemies among the Islamofascists. I prefer not to encourage them by attacking him from the other side. “

still persona grata?

If this be butthurt, make the most of it. I think Dawkins is a bit overrated in many ways, but I’m genuinely curious as to why his record of saying about Islam what the wingnuts say, albeit in a cuter accent, doesn’t piss people off.

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 7:41:03am

re: #4 rosiee

Dawkins is two faced, during his Al Jazeera interview he stood by his assertion that the Old Testiment’s God was brutal and bloodthirsty, yet during the debate with Rabbi Sacks, the chief Rabbi of England he said “I was joking.”

Sacks/Dawkins

Dawkins on al Jazeera

When asked by the al Jazeera interviewer: “What about the God of the Koran..” He says “the God of the Koran I don’t know about” So he knows about the Old Testament God? Which Yeshiva did Dawkins go to, doesn’t take much to pick up a Koran and read it, no more difficult than picking up a King James. Why does he presume to have more knowledge of the Jewish God than others? What is his obsession?

Maybe Rabbi Sacks is right, Dawkins might have a bit of a hate for Jews.

I don’t think it’s specific, no. I do think that Dawkins is often intellectually lazy, and somewhat clueless about his own social privilege and cultural context. It didn’t occur to him to examine the intellectual heritage of the ‘Old Testament God of Wrath, New Testament God of Love’ meme, nor where he had picked it up from, and when it was pointed out to him that it’s a traditional anti-Semitic formulation, he couldn’t be bothered to take that on board, nor to really care much.

I’m given to understand that he is really good on biology, that weird riff on fetal pain to one side. Unfortunately, if you’re going to be the Grand Poobah of Reason, you also need to know a bit about some other things, and he seems a little lost there sometimes.

17 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 11:05:45am

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

I like and defend Dawkins in many ways, but that was completely over the line. To my dismay, Neil DeGrasse Tyson jumped into this too when he declared that a certain Muslim scholar was the reason the Muslim world went into a scientific dark age— a very ambitious historical premise, but not exactly anything approaching a fact. Furthermore, the Christian world had plenty of guys writing about how science was the debil, too.

Anyway, this once again shows that Islamophobia is, in fact, real— which, in the context of his quote, is ironic.


However, Dawkins may still be the world’s greatest thinker. His theory of the gene-level unit of replication was an absolutely brilliant on, and he’s continued to expand on it. Myself, I would choose Daniel Dennett.

There might be another award perhaps for the world’s most flawless thinker, the one who makes the fewest mistakes. Were he not dead, I’d nominate Murray Kempton. As it is, I got nothin’.

18 Jimmah  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 5:41:14pm

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

BUTTHURT! It’s a floor wax! It’s a dessert topping!

Dr Butthurt has no plans for a floor wax or a dessert topping, but he does make a rather exquisite ointment…

As for Dawkins comments on Islam that you posted, I’m not a fan of Islam (or any religion) but I don’t agree with making comparative slams on one particular faith, as I think it is divisive and inevitably becomes fodder for bigots. So I don’t agree with him on that.

Now on with the W.O.R.D. :

Pat Condell is persona non grata. Why is Dawkins

still persona grata?

The reason we don’t make Dawkins a pariah like Pat Condell is because he is a world class scientist who has worked tirelessly to spread the scientific message, whereas Condell is a one note bigoted ranter.

Dawkins views on religion are not exactly unique among scientists and philosophers, many of whom have either made similar points themselves in their writings or publicly supported his writing and comments on the subject.

Do we really want to make pariahs of not only Dawkins, but also Weinberg, Dennet, and Hawking, for example?

19 Mar  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 6:02:30pm

re: #9 palomino

Really? I was unaware that this is the high school debating team and proving a negative, an in Dawkins isn’t an anti-Semite, is rather difficult.

Rather he detests all religion and considers the belief in such to be superstitious nonsense. I agree with him.

20 Jimmah  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 6:21:14pm

re: #19 Mar

Really? I was unaware that this is the high school debating team and proving a negative, an in Dawkins isn’t an anti-Semite, is rather difficult.

Dude, I think sarcasm was assumed from your somewhat spare comment where (as is clear now) it wasn’t intended.

Rather he detests all religion and considers the belief in such to be superstitious nonsense. I agree with him.

Yep, and as such he runs the risk of being simultaneously called an anti-semite, Islamophobe and anti-christian bigot etc by apologists of all stripes. Being honest about bullshit can make you a lot of enemies.

21 Jimmah  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 6:24:12pm

Oh and he’s an anti-dowsing bigot too, of course :D

22 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 30, 2013 9:39:33pm

re: #18 Jimmah

Dr Butthurt has no plans for a floor wax or a dessert topping, but he does make a rather exquisite ointment…

[Embedded content]

As for Dawkins comments on Islam that you posted, I’m not a fan of Islam (or any religion) but I don’t agree with making comparative slams on one particular faith, as I think it is divisive and inevitably becomes fodder for bigots. So I don’t agree with him on that.

Now on with the W.O.R.D. :

The reason we don’t make Dawkins a pariah like Pat Condell is because he is a world class scientist who has worked tirelessly to spread the scientific message, whereas Condell is a one note bigoted ranter.

Dawkins views on religion are not exactly unique among scientists and philosophers, many of whom have either made similar points themselves in their writings or publicly supported his writing and comments on the subject.

Do we really want to make pariahs of not only Dawkins, but also Weinberg, Dennet, and Hawking, for example?

I’m not asking to make a pariah of anyone. But of that one-note bigot, Dawkins has said:

“Pat Condell is unique. Nobody can match his extraordinary blend of suavity and savagery. With his articulate intelligence he runs rings around the religious wingnuts that are the targets of his merciless humour. Thank goodness he is on our side.”

He’s also used his website to promote Condell’s materials. Has he retracted that support?

As for the views of scientists on religion, Hawking, for example, has said that he doesn’t believe in life after death, and called it a ‘fairy tale’. As far as I know he has NOT defended “Fitna”, not suggested that there is a movement afoot to impose Sharia law, or insisted that British cops won’t arrest Muslims for wifebeating. Nor has he said that ‘multiculturalism’ is code for Islam in Europe. I don’t think. If Hawking actually runs around saying all of this, I stand corrected.

If you don’t see the difference between believing religion is false, or believing that religion harms society, and what Dawkins says about Islam—all the exact same points and memes as many people who, frankly, are obnoxious paranoid Islamophobes…I don’t know what to say beyond that.

If you figure that being a famous scientist who promotes causes you find important covers a multitude of sins, that’s another thing.

If you think he’s right, but you have to have a certain intellectual stature to get away with saying it…not be a trashy conspiracy-theory believing twit like Pam Geller…that’s something else again.

But seriously, he seems to have hit every damn point in the Islam Is the Debbil Greatest Hits. And just being famous for not believing in the devil seems a thin cover for that.

23 hellosnackbar  Wed, May 1, 2013 1:26:23am

Funny how times have changed !
Pat Condell used to get rave reviews on this site.
He and Richard Dawkins are serious pals.
I support his site’s criticism of daft religious right wing head cases!
Cheers,
Hellosnackbar

24 SidewaysQuark  Wed, May 1, 2013 7:07:47am

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

So what has Dawkins done in the last twelve months? I mostly follow him by the screams of outrage in his wake. In the last twelve months, he pissed off Sacks, announced on Twitter that Islam is the ‘greatest force for evil today’, and engaged in some sophistry, also on Twitter about how important fetal pain is, which led some feminists to wonder how much he’s actually keeping up in his official academic field.

Anything I missed?

Over the top, perhaps, but you can’t deny that Islam is much more problematic than any other major religion in the world, at this point in time. Anyone denying this has their eyes completely shut.

25 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, May 1, 2013 7:59:25am

re: #4 rosiee

Dawkins is two faced, during his Al Jazeera interview he stood by his assertion that the Old Testiment’s God was brutal and bloodthirsty, yet during the debate with Rabbi Sacks, the chief Rabbi of England he said “I was joking.”

Sacks/Dawkins

Dawkins on al Jazeera

When asked by the al Jazeera interviewer: “What about the God of the Koran..” He says “the God of the Koran I don’t know about” So he knows about the Old Testament God? Which Yeshiva did Dawkins go to, doesn’t take much to pick up a Koran and read it, no more difficult than picking up a King James. Why does he presume to have more knowledge of the Jewish God than others? What is his obsession?

Maybe Rabbi Sacks is right, Dawkins might have a bit of a hate for Jews.

Where did Dawkins say it was a joke?

26 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, May 1, 2013 8:12:45am

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

BUTTHURT! It’s a floor wax! It’s a dessert topping!

OK, now that we’ve established the butthurt, let me just state for the record that someone who said these sorts of things about Islam:

loonwatch.com

who was not Richard Dawkins, would get a less warm reception at LGF.

Pat Condell is persona non grata. Why is Dawkins, who says of Condell:

“I am not in favour of banning the burqa, because I am not in favour banning any style of clothing. But I think Pat is right to compare the burqa with a Ku Klux Klan hood or a swastika armband (which shouldn’t be banned either). I think he is right to speak of Islamic fascism, I think he is right to condemn the use of the word ‘Islamophobia’….I think Islam is probably the greatest of all man-made evils in the world today. It takes courage to speak out against it. Pat has that courage. He will be making enough enemies among the Islamofascists. I prefer not to encourage them by attacking him from the other side. “

still persona grata?

If this be butthurt, make the most of it. I think Dawkins is a bit overrated in many ways, but I’m genuinely curious as to why his record of saying about Islam what the wingnuts say, albeit in a cuter accent, doesn’t piss people off.

I haven’t been paying attention to Dawkins much since 2008, so I was unaware of some of his anti-Islam rants and comments.

If he’s supporting Condell, then I have to admit he’s turned to the dark side and should be condemned for his obvious bigotry. A bigotry I had no idea was part of his message.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 1, 2013 8:12:45am

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

It occurs to me that ‘runs around’ is probably a poor phrase to use in regards to Stephen Hawking. Amend that to “if Stephen Hawking GOES around…”

28 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, May 1, 2013 8:18:59am

re: #24 SidewaysQuark

Over the top, perhaps, but you can’t deny that Islam is much more problematic than any other major religion in the world, at this point in time. Anyone denying this has their eyes completely shut.

Yes, it is more of a problem now, but is that in the nature of Islam, or in the use of Islam?

Islam, like Christianity and Judaism has many sects.

29 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, May 1, 2013 8:21:22am

I can’t believe I’m defending a religion, I used to be such an anti-theist.

You guys are corrupting my brain.

30 Jimmah  Fri, May 3, 2013 7:02:52am

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

As for the views of scientists on religion, Hawking, for example, has said that he doesn’t believe in life after death, and called it a ‘fairy tale’.

Hawking hasn’t commented specifically on Islam as far as I know but he has praised Dawkins and is happy to take part in conversations with him. By the same reasoning that you have used to attack Dawkins (he likes Pat Condell!) we would have to disown him as well. And as I said, the same would go for a great many others. Not even to mention Christopher Hitchens, who had a lot to say about Islam.

As far as I know he has NOT defended “Fitna”, not suggested that there is a movement afoot to impose Sharia law, or insisted that British cops won’t arrest Muslims for wifebeating. Nor has he said that ‘multiculturalism’ is code for Islam in Europe. I don’t think. If Hawking actually runs around saying all of this, I stand corrected.

There is a massive difference between wingnut critiques of multiculturalism which are borne out of racism and a simple fear of otherness and those of liberals like Dawkins.

There is a better way for the state to understand and regulate human differences, beyond the old oppositions of Tebbittry and multiculturalism. It is called liberalism. A liberal society allows an individual to do whatever he or she wants, provided it doesn’t harm other people. You can choose to wear PVC hotpants or a veil. You can choose to spend all day praying, or all day mocking people who pray.

Where a multiculturalist prizes the rights of religious groups, a liberal favours the rights of the individual. So if you want to preach that the Archangel Gabriel revealed the word of God to an illiterate nomad two millennia ago, you can do it as much as you like. You can write books and hold rallies and make your case. What you cannot do is argue that since this angel supposedly said women are worth half of a man when it comes to inheritance, and that gay people should be killed, you can ditch the rules of liberalism and act on it.

The above is from an article on multiculturalism that appeared on Dawkins site. Do you even disagree with it, and if so, why?

If you figure that being a famous scientist who promotes causes you find important covers a multitude of sins, that’s another thing.

If you think he’s right, but you have to have a certain intellectual stature to get away with saying it…not be a trashy conspiracy-theory believing twit like Pam Geller…that’s something else again.

He’s not saying anything like what Geller is saying. Dawkins does not advocate military adventures into Muslim countries, in fact he is staunchly anti-war; he does not advocate restrictive immigration policies, he does not even advocate banning the burkha,(as your quote even showed, although I got the distinct feeling that we were supposed to be outraged anyway, just because he doesn’t like the burkha and feels it to be misogynistic (which I do too, just for the record).

But seriously, he seems to have hit every damn point in the Islam Is the Debbil Greatest Hits. And just being famous for not believing in the devil seems a thin cover for that.

Serious critics of religion are always making points that religious bigots also make when criticising someone elses religion. That does not make the serious critic a bigot, or part of their group. Islamic extremists are I am sure only too happy to recant everything that has been said about the Catholic Church’s child abuse scandals - this does not make serious critics of the Catholic Church who have made these points equivalent to the Taliban nor does it make them extremists or bigots.

31 Jimmah  Fri, May 3, 2013 7:24:12am

re: #26 Walking Spanish Down the Hall

I haven’t been paying attention to Dawkins much since 2008, so I was unaware of some of his anti-Islam rants and comments.

If he’s supporting Condell, then I have to admit he’s turned to the dark side and should be condemned for his obvious bigotry. A bigotry I had no idea was part of his message.

I used to like Condell too, until he got behind that ridiculous 9/11 mosque outrage. Dawkins has posted articles both pro and anti that issue on his site, btw , and judging by many of the comments Condell’s was not particularly well received at the time.


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