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1 Joanne  Tue, May 21, 2013 5:42:52pm

I don’t know. Perhaps if so many GOPers weren’t calling for imprisonment….

2 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 21, 2013 6:57:33pm

re: #1 Joanne

I don’t know. Perhaps if so many GOPers weren’t calling for imprisonment….

Must concur. Given that prosecutors in the US sometimes twist testimony given in other contexts to make a defendant look bad, someone facing a criminal investigation is often well advised to take the 5th, even if she or he did nothing wrong.

3 Political Atheist  Tue, May 21, 2013 7:36:18pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

re: #1 Joanne

Let’s not let the GOP noise machine have us ignore a profound sign of things gone wrong at a big agency with enormous power.

4 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 21, 2013 9:36:33pm

re: #3 Political Atheist

re: #1 Joanne

Let’s not let the GOP noise machine have us ignore a profound sign of things gone wrong at a big agency with enormous power.

re: #3 Political Atheist

re: #1 Joanne

Let’s not let the GOP noise machine have us ignore a profound sign of things gone wrong at a big agency with enormous power.

I’m not doing that. This IRS matter is a serious problem, and brushing it off for partisan reasons isn’t a good idea.

5 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 6:30:03am

re: #3 Political Atheist

re: #1 Joanne

Let’s not let the GOP noise machine have us ignore a profound sign of things gone wrong at a big agency with enormous power.

The biggest thing that’s gone wrong at the IRS is that they’re letting shitloads of fake-ass charities get away with this shit, and that they’re letting religious organizations engage in open politicking.

6 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 6:30:32am

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

Since it’s been shown that Tea Party groups represented only a fraction of those that were investigated, what is the serious problem?

7 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 6:44:16am

re: #3 Political Atheist

re: #1 Joanne

Let’s not let the GOP noise machine have us ignore a profound sign of things gone wrong at a big agency with enormous power.

Yes - people have so little confidence in getting a fair hearing from Republican politicians that they feel they can’t represent themselves at hearings without having their words twisted against them.

8 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 6:54:42am

re: #7 iossarian

According to an inspector general’s report, Lerner found out in June 2011 that some staff in the nonprofits division in Cincinnati had used terms such as “Tea Party” and “Patriots” to select some applications for additional screening of their political activities. She ordered changes.

This is the extent of the ‘scandal’. A couple of guys got the (to me, completely reasonable idea) that, given the huge amount of scammy Tea Party groups, they were going to use that as a search key to find nonprofits to investigate.

This is a grey area, to me. There are a shitload of scammy Tea Party groups. I think, on one hand, using that is completely fair. There’s also a shitload of scammy religious groups, scammy help-the-orphans-in-Africa groups, etc. This search concentrated on the former, rather than the latter. That’s quasi-biased, and I think it should probably stop, but it’s not a very big deal.

9 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 7:28:54am

re: #8 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Of course the targets of the improper screening criteria feel a lot differently than their devout critics do.

10 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 7:36:42am

re: #9 Political Atheist

Of course the targets of the improper screening criteria feel a lot differently than their devout critics do.

I’m not sure what that response has to do with what I said. Can you expand?

11 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 22, 2013 9:46:26am

I have to admit I’m feeling some measure of empathy, but precious little sympathy for conservative groups, especially considering their support for profiling Muslims (or their silence in not protesting it).

Slate sums it up best for me here:
Profiling Is Great … Except When You Do It to Me

12 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 9:50:33am

re: #1 Joanne

So…..how does one hold a top official accountable? The blame game is getting so tired.

13 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 9:53:35am

re: #10 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

I’ll expand- its curious that people decide to institute a double standard when they disagree with the offended party. IF this were done by president Bush’s Admin, how would you feel…..thought so. Equal opportunity disgust. That’s the honesty.

14 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 9:57:54am

How in the world are we ever going to rid our selves of partisan politics, if we don’t hold our poloticians accountable? Anyone agree with this?

15 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:01:34am

re: #11 CuriousLurker

Profiling is an unfortunate reality in our world. Go visit Tehran and walk the streets……… You’ll be profiled.

16 blueraven  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:11:03am

re: #15 Whynothonesty?

Profiling is an unfortunate reality in our world. Go visit Tehran and walk the streets……… You’ll be profiled.

So we should ascribe to the practices of Tehran now?

17 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:12:49am

re: #15 Whynothonesty?

Profiling is an unfortunate reality in our world. Go visit Tehran and walk the streets……… You’ll be profiled.

Yeah, let’s make the United States more like Iran. That’s the ticket.

Good grief.

18 blueraven  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:13:06am

re: #13 Whynothonesty?

I’ll expand- its curious that people decide to institute a double standard when they disagree with the offended party. IF this were done by president Bush’s Admin, how would you feel…..thought so. Equal opportunity disgust. That’s the honesty.

Karl Rove and others totally ignored congressional subpoenas. How do you feel about that accountability?

19 RadicalModerate  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:16:32am

re: #15 Whynothonesty?

Profiling is an unfortunate reality in our world. Go visit Tehran and walk the streets……… You’ll be profiled.

So, your solution is to bring back Jim Crow laws?

No f*cking thanks.

20 blueraven  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:16:47am

re: #17 Charles Johnson

Yeah, let’s make the United States more like Iran. That’s the ticket.

Good grief.

I have never understood this RW argument. The countries we see as antithetical to democracy and everything we stand for do this, so why shouldn’t we!!??

21 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:17:39am

re: #13 Whynothonesty?

I’ll expand- its curious that people decide to institute a double standard when they disagree with the offended party. IF this were done by president Bush’s Admin, how would you feel…..thought so. Equal opportunity disgust. That’s the honesty.

Again, I have no clue what you’re talking about. If what was done?

What appears to have happened is that two people in Cincinatti used these terms to target groups. As I said, this is a grey area for me, because, like ‘sustainable’ ‘green’, and other buzzwords, tea party and patriot seem like good keywords for finding scammy charities.

So what is the ‘this’ that you’re referring to?

22 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:17:59am

re: #15 Whynothonesty?

Profiling is an unfortunate reality in our world. Go visit Tehran and walk the streets……… You’ll be profiled.

If profiling is an unfortunate reality, then why are you angry at these groups being profiled?

23 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:22:14am

re: #7 iossarian

Let’s not forget that the other way to play this is testify fully with a attorney present, likely paid for by the IRS as the employer. Or just issue a statement demanding immunity from unfair charges spoken already.

Frankly after all the threats unfulfilled by Iissa, I rate the risk of jail for these people as very low. Issa=Big Bad Wolf.

24 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:25:12am

re: #23 Political Atheist

Could you reply to my #10?

25 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:37:25am

re: #23 Political Atheist

Let’s not forget that the other way to play this is testify fully with a attorney present, likely paid for by the IRS as the employer. Or just issue a statement demanding immunity from unfair charges spoken already.

Frankly after all the threats unfulfilled by Iissa, I rate the risk of jail for these people as very low. Issa=Big Bad Wolf.

If Issa is just posturing, why waste your time and testify? There’s actual work to be done.

26 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:40:02am

re: #24 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Sure. Your take is this incident as just a gray area violation of policy. Those who endured the extraordinary screening see it as a larger issue, perhaps as a fair conclusion given their experience.

27 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:41:41am

re: #25 iossarian

Because testifying to congress on request or demand is what happens no matter who is in the majority. It’s a priority and is key to proper oversight. That does not change with the partisan shifts that swing back and forth.

28 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:43:09am

re: #27 Political Atheist

Because testifying to congress on request or demand is what happens no matter who is in the majority. It’s a priority and is key to proper oversight. That does not change with the partisan shifts that swing back and forth.

That’s right, and I distinctly remember Bush administration officials falling over themselves to testify before Congress on numerous occasions, because the priority of testifying does not change with the partisan shifts that swing back and forth.

29 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:44:49am

re: #26 Political Atheist

Sure. Your take is this incident as just a gray area violation of policy. Those who endured the extraordinary screening see it as a larger issue, perhaps as a fair conclusion given their experience.

Again, the ‘extraordinary’ screening was two people in Cincinnati using these search terms to find groups that might be improperly registered. I’m not sure what you’re saying they see it as: What is the larger issue?

30 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:48:53am

re: #28 iossarian

That’s right, and I distinctly remember Bush administration officials falling over themselves to testify before Congress on numerous occasions, because the priority of testifying does not change with the partisan shifts that swing back and forth.

So your point is we repeat or continue that kind of dysfunction out of partisan anger? Either call for due process or declare it over.

31 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:49:42am

re: #29 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Again, the ‘extraordinary’ screening was two people in Cincinnati using these search terms to find groups that might be improperly registered. I’m not sure what you’re saying they see it as: What is the larger issue?

Larger than what?

32 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:50:05am

re: #30 Political Atheist

So your point is we repeat or continue that kind of dysfunction out of partisan anger? Either call for due process or declare it over.

I honestly don’t know what we should do. Not electing any more Republicans ever at any level would be a start.

33 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:51:12am

re: #32 iossarian

Okay I get that. But in the meantime we must proceed somehow.

34 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:51:56am

re: #31 Political Atheist

Larger than what?

I don’t know, man, it was your phrase.

Sure. Your take is this incident as just a gray area violation of policy. Those who endured the extraordinary screening see it as a larger issue, perhaps as a fair conclusion given their experience.

What is the larger issue that they see it as?

35 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:53:18am

re: #33 Political Atheist

Okay I get that. But in the meantime we must proceed somehow.

Yes, we must all appear before Republican committees and confess our sins against America and Apple Pie, and Straight White Christian Maleness.

36 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 10:57:17am

re: #34 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Are you asking me make their case for them? no thanks. I simply appreciate the difference in perspective. Because as minimal as it may be, the officials have admitted they got the policy of screening wrong. Why and how remains to be fully disclosed. Or perhaps now won’t ever be thanks to a (IMO) conveniently exaggerated fear of jail.

I’m coming down on the side of transparency, where everyone involved actually testifies. Some may see that as support for the GOP, which is not my intent.

37 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:00:18am

re: #35 iossarian

Yes, we must all appear before Republican committees and confess our sins against America and Apple Pie, and Straight White Christian Maleness.

Heh. Snark in the pool! ;-)

38 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:02:43am

re: #36 Political Atheist

I’m coming down on the side of transparency, where everyone involved actually testifies. Some may see that as support for the GOP, which is not my intent.

In what way would testifying before Republicans increase transparency? I contend that all that would happen would be that they would ask a bunch of irrelevant and leading questions in order to grandstand, and we wouldn’t actually find out anything of interest.

Note that this is based not on partisanship, but on empirical observation of the past n such events (I particularly enjoyed Republicans’ fellation of Apple executives yesterday, in which we learned nothing about how that company plans to avoid paying US tax on tens of billions of dollars of profit).

If you can persuade me that appearing before the committee would actually increase transparency, I’m all for it. But please base such persuasion on things that have happened, not on some fantasy world in which Republicans actually care about finding out real facts.

39 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:02:46am

re: #36 Political Atheist

Are you asking me make their case for them? no thanks.

No, I’m asking you to explain what the larger perspective they’re seeing is.

I simply appreciate the difference in perspective. Because as minimal as it may be, the officials have admitted they got the policy of screening wrong. Why and how remains to be fully disclosed. Or perhaps now won’t ever be thanks to a (IMO) conveniently exaggerated fear of jail.

I don’t actually think the policy is a bad one, though, in general. If a new wave of organizations sharing similar names pops up, I think they should get more scrutinity, whether it’s “tea party” or “sustainable”. It makes sense.

I’m coming down on the side of transparency, where everyone involved actually testifies. Some may see that as support for the GOP, which is not my intent.

You are normally an extremely strong supporter of constutitutional rights. Why not in this case?

I am also highly in favor of transparency, which is why I would like every single charitable group formed to be investigated. Since we don’t have money to do that, I think we should, rather than choosing randomly, use intelligence and investigate groups that there is reason to believe may be scammy.

I actually would really, sincerely love it if the IRS specifically investigated every group with ‘green’ in the name, because I passionately believe in evnrionmentalist causes and I only want those groups on my ‘side’ that are being run legally and ethically.

40 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:04:01am

re: #37 Political Atheist

Heh. Snark in the pool! ;-)

It’s not snark. Go and look at how Republicans behave in these things. They aren’t asking questions to actually find stuff out. They’re just posturing.

In the Apple hearing they were basically lobbing up softballs. “Tell me, Mr. Apple Executive, do you agree that corporate taxes are too high everywhere and should be lowered significantly?”

What a farce.

41 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:06:51am

re: #39 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

I actually would really, sincerely love it if the IRS specifically investigated every group with ‘green’ in the name, because I passionately believe in evnrionmentalist causes and I only want those groups on my ‘side’ that are being run legally and ethically.

Ditto “fairness” because that’s what all the lobbying groups trying to funnel money into Mitt Romney’s bank account put in their names.

42 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:07:24am

re: #14 Whynothonesty?

Politicians! Yikes!!!!

43 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:11:46am

re: #39 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Well now we begin to discuss what we wish was in the law and policy instead of what we (apparently) do have. Right now I’m still working on whjat the policy of “objective’ screening is supposed to mean vs what it became in this instance. The best way to approach that is having all the testimony from those involved.

How high do you rate the risk of jail such as it was from Issa? Very likely” Somewhat likely? My thought is unlikely to highly unlikely. If I’m right then the 5th has needlessly been invoked. Still her right of course but damaging to the process regardless. If I’m wrong then Issa has more power now than i think can be shown from the past.

44 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:12:27am

re: #21 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Leadership is top down in this and any other administration. What was done by the IRS is clear, intimidation. No way is this an act of some rogue low level employees. Clearly a directive. We’ll see if anyone ever talks…….

45 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:13:29am

re: #44 Whynothonesty?

Leadership is top down in this and any other administration. What was done by the IRS is clear, intimidation. No way is this an act of some rogue low level employees. Clearly a directive. We’ll see if anyone ever talks…….

Hi, we are fond of facts here. And discussion based on facts.

Not conspiracy theories.

46 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:14:10am

re: #44 Whynothonesty?

Leadership is top down in this and any other administration. What was done by the IRS is clear, intimidation. No way is this an act of some rogue low level employees. Clearly a directive. We’ll see if anyone ever talks…….

Put up the memo or some links or some evidence this got to the White House. Or, have your strong claim rejected as having little to no evidence to support it. Strong claims require strong evidence. Got any?

47 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:15:08am

re: #22 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Who said I was angry at any group? You need to understand that profiling is a standard around the world. It happens.

48 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:15:57am

re: #46 Political Atheist

We’ll see,……. You sound like my father during the Nixon admin.

49 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:17:32am

re: #47 Whynothonesty?

Who said I was angry at any group? You need to understand that profiling is a standard around the world. It happens.

So … if profiling “happens”, what exactly is the problem with the IRS doing some profiling?

I don’t think you understand that, in this case, it’s the IRS that’s being accused of profiling. If you don’t think profiling is a problem, you’re basically excusing them from that accusation.

50 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:18:38am

re: #45 klys

Great- facts are wonderful and complete honesty is how we get the the “facts”. Lets get there- this thread started with the fact that Lois Lerner invoked the 5th. Would love to hear her honesty.

51 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:20:29am

re: #48 Whynothonesty?

A couple of reporters had real evidence. Backed up by real investigations so that members of both parties were willing to vote against the sitting president.

This? This is just another GOP lynch mob terrified of a successful black president.

52 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:20:52am

re: #50 Whynothonesty?

Great- facts are wonderful and complete honesty is how we get the the “facts”. Lets get there- this thread started with the fact that Lois Lerner invoked the 5th. Would love to hear her honesty.

I’m pretty certain that Congressional ‘investigations’ rarely turn up facts these days. (BTW, facts doesn’t need scare quotes.)

Did you have the same opinion about honesty during the previous administration?

53 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:22:48am

re: #43 Political Atheist

Well now we begin to discuss what we wish was in the law and policy instead of what we (apparently) do have. Right now I’m still working on whjat the policy of “objective’ screening is supposed to mean vs what it became in this instance. The best way to approach that is having all the testimony from those involved.

You really, honestly are telling me you think the best way to get at this is to have the GOP congress ask these people questions? Sincerely, that’s what you think, these are the guys to do it?

54 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:23:23am

re: #49 iossarian

Wait a second, what the IRS did was profiling? Lets get the facts straight. What they did was target conservative groups- this is profiling? No it’s intimidation from a very powerful entity, the IRS. Are you discounting the use of the IRS in political intimidation, that this was never done? This situation passes the smell test. I was responding to the comment about profiling Muslims.

55 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:23:46am

re: #52 klys

Yes

56 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:24:45am

re: #44 Whynothonesty?

Leadership is top down in this and any other administration. What was done by the IRS is clear, intimidation. No way is this an act of some rogue low level employees. Clearly a directive. We’ll see if anyone ever talks…….

Then why did only two people in Cincinnati do it?

I expect an investigation might reveal various people all over the country may have used various search terms that, under close scrutiny, could be seen as non-objective. Is ‘green’ an objective search term? It’s one I’d use, if I was in the IRS, because there’s so much scammery in that area. But ‘green’ things tend to be (or claim to be) liberal. So is that objective, in that I objectively know that there’s a lot of scamming associated with that word, or is it unfair to liberals?

57 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:25:32am

re: #54 Whynothonesty?

Wait a second, what the IRS did was profiling? Lets get the facts straight. What they did was target conservative groups- this is profiling? No it’s intimidation from a very powerful entity, the IRS. Are you discounting the use of the IRS in political intimidation, that this was never done? This situation passes the smell test. I was responding to the comment about profiling Muslims.

Lol. “Profiling applied to target conservative groups = bad. Profiling applied to Muslims = good.”

Why is it “intimidation” to send questionnaires to Tea Party charities (and liberal charities as well, it’s worth noting) but not to pull Muslims out of airport security checks for further questions?

58 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:26:29am

re: #53 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

So , who would you like to do it?

59 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:26:52am

re: #55 Whynothonesty?

Great, you can stop spouting conspiracy theories about how the Obama administration directed this any time now then.

60 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:27:34am

re: #58 Whynothonesty?

So , who would you like to do it?

Umm, the inspector general whose report was released last week?

61 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:27:43am

re: #53 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

No, I never called this ideal, or these guys the best.
These guys are what we have. the duly elected majority. No less so than our President right? The law compels testimony to that body on demand, or else. That does not change with competence or party.

62 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:28:19am

re: #57 iossarian

Well, you seem to be confused. The TSA pulls many people out of line. Lets not blur this discussion with your own agenda.

63 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:28:42am

re: #48 Whynothonesty?

We’ll see,……. You sound like my father during the Nixon admin.

What did your father have to say as the evidence came out and Nixon resigned?

64 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:29:13am

re: #62 Whynothonesty?

Well, you seem to be confused. The TSA pulls many people out of line. Lets not blur this discussion with your own agenda.

I’m not confused - I’m asking you why it’s “intimidation” to profile conservatives but apparently OK to profile Muslims, since you’ve made both claims in your comments above.

65 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:30:05am

re: #62 Whynothonesty?

And many groups were singled out for scrutiny, not just conservative ones. But by all means, let’s not blur your agenda.

66 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:30:23am

re: #58 Whynothonesty?

So , who would you like to do it?

And independent commission, appointed by a quorum of judges who have had significant experience with tax law. I’d like them to present an opinion on how we can best fight back against the abuse of this system and decrease the influence of money on politics.

67 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:30:58am

re: #59 klys

Not really, I don’t have to answer to you. Bottom line this is an issue that needs complete transperency. Maybe our President will apply his motto here.

68 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:31:23am

re: #53 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

You really, honestly are telling me you think the best way to get at this is to have the GOP congress ask these people questions? Sincerely, that’s what you think, these are the guys to do it?

Oh, about that jail question I asked you above-? #43 2nd para.

69 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:32:43am

re: #61 Political Atheist

No, I never called this ideal, or these guys the best.
These guys are what we have. the duly elected majority. No less so than our President right? The law compels testimony to that body on demand, or else. That does not change with competence or party.

Okay, but you said that you think the best way to get the info we need is through this. And I disagree. I think any other form of investigation, even journalistic, would produce a better result, because I am absolutely sure the GOP would use such hearings to spread disinformation, because they always use these hearings to spread disinformation.

My ideal would be an independent panel. I don’t know the subject well enough to know who should be on it, thus my idea, above, of judges, since I think that the executive is too close to this to do the appointing.

70 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:32:54am

re: #67 Whynothonesty?

Not really, I don’t have to answer to you. Bottom line this is an issue that needs complete transperency. Maybe our President will apply his motto here.

Do you also think Benghazi suffers from a lack of transparency?

I’m just asking questions…

71 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:35:06am

re: #43 Political Atheist

How high do you rate the risk of jail such as it was from Issa? Very likely” Somewhat likely? My thought is unlikely to highly unlikely. If I’m right then the 5th has needlessly been invoked. Still her right of course but damaging to the process regardless. If I’m wrong then Issa has more power now than i think can be shown from the past.

How is it damaging to the process to invoke it? From what I have read, the law governing this is vague. If I was under questioning under a law I found vague— for example, the obscenity statues— I would take the 5th amendment in a heartbeat.

I have no idea how to evaluate the risk of jail: it seems like a pretty unique set of circumstances. What are you basing your idea of the level of risk on?

72 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:37:06am

re: #64 iossarian

It’s not intimidation when you decide to travel and go through a security line and are subject to a search. It is intimidation when you apply for the 501(c)4 and your group is discouraged and investigated with the most asinine questions., slow walked through the process and leadership within those groups find their being audited. It’s clearly intimidation. Look, let’s not confuse this situation with someone in a security line.

73 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:37:47am

re: #70 klys

I do , do you? Just asking questions also.

74 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:41:13am

re: #72 Whynothonesty?

It’s not intimidation when you decide to travel and go through a security line and are subject to a search.

So, if Republican voters had to face an extra 20 minutes of security at the airport, that would be fine?

75 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:42:21am

re: #16 blueraven

No ….. That’s silly- but if you were walking the streets of Tehran, you would be profiled.

76 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:42:23am

re: #71 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

I have no idea how to evaluate the risk of jail: it seems like a pretty unique set of circumstances. What are you basing your idea of the level of risk on?

One pretty easy way is to look back. Another is to ponder what a blowhard Issa is. Another is try to imagine these charges actually making it through the whole process.

77 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:43:35am

re: #74 iossarian

Why just republican voters?

78 jaunte  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:44:32am

Spoonfeed.

79 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:44:35am

re: #77 Whynothonesty?

Why just republican voters?

Why not? It’s OK and not intimidation, apparently:

re: #72 Whynothonesty?

It’s not intimidation when you decide to travel and go through a security line and are subject to a search.

80 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:45:28am
81 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:45:36am

re: #76 Political Atheist

One pretty easy way is to look back. Another is to ponder what a blowhard Issa is. Another is try to imagine these charges actually making it through the whole process.

I don’t really think contempt of congress is what she’s worried about; I think it’s that the law governing how the IRS can ‘profile’ is really vague and so, while she completely believes she has broken no laws, a prosecutor might well be able to indict her for it.

82 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:46:21am

Why do right wing trolls always pick these weird self-aggrandizing names?

83 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:50:26am

re: #73 Whynothonesty?

“Just asking questions!”

Maybe it’s a bot.

84 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:50:52am

re: #76 Political Atheist

Another is try to imagine these charges actually making it through the whole process.

I must say, if I were offered the chance to live in legal limbo for a couple of years so that Darrell Issa could hold a hearing which shed no light on actual events but threw some red meat to mouth-breathing Obummer-hating conspiracy theorists, I would totally jump at it. My only question would be: “How high?”

85 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:51:40am

re: #65 klys

Yes, there were other groups. So your ok with this? Maybe educate yourself, here’s an interesting article.
washingtonpost.com

86 erik_t  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:51:54am

re: #82 Charles Johnson

Why do right wing trolls always pick these weird self-aggrandizing names?

Why noth onesty? I don’t get it.

/

87 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:53:10am

re: #85 Whynothonesty?

Yes, there were other groups. So your ok with this? Maybe educate yourself, here’s an interesting article.
washingtonpost.com

Appealing to Kessler’s authority as a fact-checker is a fking slender reed these days.

88 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:54:44am

re: #82 Charles Johnson

Hey Charles. Great insight, now pay your toll! Lol. Why is it that a different opinion from yours is a troll? That seems one sided.

89 Mattand  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:54:55am

re: #73 Whynothonesty?

I do , do you? Just asking questions also.

Just asking questions; the sure sign of a conspiracy theory shithead.

90 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:56:23am

re: #79 iossarian

Your making my point - thank you.

91 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:56:56am

re: #89 Mattand

Nice- you sound very intelligent.

92 Mattand  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:58:26am

re: #91 Whynothonesty?

Nice- you sound very intelligent.

I am, actually. I also lately have decided that as I get older, I’m tired of handling cranks with kid gloves.

93 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:58:28am

That wooshing sound is the point going entirely over someone’s head.

94 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:58:34am

re: #91 Whynothonesty?

And your making my point too.

95 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:59:02am

re: #91 Whynothonesty?

Nice- you sound very intelligent.

Says the guy who doesn’t know the difference between your and you’re.

96 wrenchwench  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:59:04am

re: #94 Whynothonesty?

And your making my point too.

you’re

97 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:59:25am

re: #93 klys

No, I get the point. Your biased

98 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:59:28am

re: #96 wrenchwench

You owe me a coke.

99 wrenchwench  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:00:00pm

re: #86 erik_t

Why noth onesty? I don’t get it.

/

Try ‘why not hone sty’. I’m pretty sure it’s ‘sty’.

100 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:00:01pm

re: #97 Whynothonesty?

No, I get the point. Your biased

You’re.

101 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:00:19pm

re: #95 GeneJockey

Awwwww, isn’t that cute…..a grammar policeman.

102 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:00:32pm

re: #81 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

I don’t really think contempt of congress is what she’s worried about; I think it’s that the law governing how the IRS can ‘profile’ is really vague and so, while she completely believes she has broken no laws, a prosecutor might well be able to indict her for it.

If she thinks she broke the law (as in a prosecutor from another branch of gov) sure she needs the 5th. But I’m far from convinced this is not another overblown response to overblown threats that continue to obfuscate the data.

103 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:00:34pm

re: #98 GeneJockey

You owe me a coke.

Can I get in on the coke brigade? I was thinking it and resisting.

104 BigPapa  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:00:55pm

re: #82 Charles Johnson

Why do right wing trolls always pick these weird self-aggrandizing names?

Seems to go hand in hand with passive aggressive antagonism utilizing shallow right wing memes and talking points.

But hey, they’re trying to have a real ‘debate.’

105 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:01:24pm

re: #101 Whynothonesty?

Awwwww, isn’t that cute…..a grammar policeman.

SPELLING policeman. Aren’t there some Billy Goats Gruff you should be accosting?

106 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:01:53pm

re: #104 BigPapa

Seems to go hand in hand with passive aggressive antagonism utilizing shallow right wing memes and talking points.

But hey, they’re trying to have a real ‘debate.’

Good thing we know how to respond at an appropriate level. Sorry to PA and Obdi though, because they’re actually trying to have a real discussion. I have been reading it, guys!

107 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:02:59pm

So, all the completely honest and curiously intelligent folks who have corrected spelling and taken asinine positions- I wish you well as you plod through your lives, Really, I do .

108 erik_t  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:03:03pm

re: #99 wrenchwench

Try ‘why not hone sty’. I’m pretty sure it’s ‘sty’.

Never go to battle with a dull sty. I recommend Arkansas whetstone, personally.

109 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:03:05pm

re: #103 klys

Can I get in on the coke brigade? I was thinking it and resisting.

WW posted within 2 seconds. You were a minute later. By my family’s rules, you could get a ginger ale.

110 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:03:25pm

re: #102 Political Atheist

If she thinks she broke the law (as in a prosecutor from another branch of gov) sure she needs the 5th. But I’m far from convinced this is not another overblown response to overblown threats that continue to obfuscate the data.

Did you misread what I said? I said she’s completely sure she’s broken no laws.

111 BigPapa  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:04:12pm

re: #106 klys

Good thing we know how to respond at an appropriate level. Sorry to PA and Obdi though, because they’re actually trying to have a real discussion. I have been reading it, guys!

Apart from actually being intelligent, they’re both relentlessly honest and straightforward.

A rarity from hatchling contrarians, if I’m going to be kind.

112 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:04:37pm

re: #102 Political Atheist

And are you going to explain what the larger issue is that you are saying these tea party groups are looking at? You kind of dropped off that, but it was my original question and it hasn’t gotten an answer.

113 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:04:41pm

re: #110 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Did you misread what I said? I said she’s completely sure she’s broken no laws.

And to be sure, nobody who broke no laws has ever been prosecuted or found guilty.
//

114 BigPapa  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:06:35pm

re: #107 Whynothonesty?

So, all the completely honest and curiously intelligent folks who have corrected spelling and taken asinine positions- I wish you well as you plod through your lives, Really, I do .

You’re the epitome of the GOP: put on a Style Over Substance name and act contrary to the name. You’re not being honest.

Rebranding!

115 wrenchwench  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:07:12pm

re: #107 Whynothonesty?

So, all the completely honest and curiously intelligent folks who have corrected spelling and taken asinine positions- I wish you well as you plod through your lives, Really, I do .

The space before the period (and spaces before commas above) are a sure sign of something.

116 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:07:15pm

re: #113 GeneJockey

And to be sure, nobody who broke no laws has ever been prosecuted or found guilty.
//

It’s trite, but it’s true that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich. But even if she’s not very worried about jail, what is an appropriate level of worry you’re prepared to accept, indeed? Is it 1/100 chance? 1/1000?

117 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:09:27pm

re: #109 GeneJockey

I’ll take a ginger ale. I was just trying to hold off. :D

118 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:10:28pm

re: #116 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Exactly. And if the Speaker of the House of Representatives, second in line to the Presidency, says he wants to know who’s going to jail, you don’t stick your head trustingly into the noose.

119 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:12:13pm

re: #117 klys

I’ll take a ginger ale. I was just trying to hold off. :D

I held off till he denigrated someone else’s intelligence. One can only withstand so much temptation.

120 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:13:55pm

stonekettle.com

So why was the IRS spending all of its time harassing conservatives? That’s some Nazi shit right there.

Since Obama’s election in 2008 and the Citizen’s United decision in 2010, the vast majority of organizations applying for 501(c)4 status are, wait for it …. wait for it … conservative Tea Party groups. Naturally they get the lion’s share of the attention. The IRS wondered if the organizations applying for tax-exempt status as “social welfare” organization really were social welfare organizations or if they were, maybe, engaged primarily in, oh, I dunno, politics. And they wondered that because it’s their job to ask the question.

OK fine. But how come the IRS spent 100% of its time targeting the Tea Party, huh. What about that?

Actually, only about 30% of the organizations singled out for further review were conservative political groups.

Yeah, but, it still sounds like harassment!

Well, it’s the IRS. However, of the approximately three hundred applications that were tagged for extra screening (out of several thousand), only about a hundred of which were conservative organizations, independent review showed that those applicants clearly demonstrated indications of significant political campaign activity and they should have been investigated in detail. In other words, in nearly every case of the 501(c)4 application process, the IRS did exactly what it was supposed to do. In fact, the IRS should have been doing more to investigate these groups, along with the right-wing groups they should have investigated left-wing groups, and middle of the road groups, and any group applying for tax-exempt status as a social welfare organization who appeared to be engaged primarily in political activities.

Yeah, but, it still sounds like harassment!

Again, it’s the IRS. they’re supposed to harass tax-cheats. And they’re supposed to regard everybody as a potential tax-cheat until proven otherwise. Everybody feels persecuted. But, see, here’s the thing. No conservative group that applied for tax-exempt status was denied. All were eventually approved. All of them. None of them would have even noticed this thing if it hadn’t made the news.

stonekettle.com

121 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:13:58pm

re: #115 wrenchwench

The space before the period (and spaces before commas above) are a sure sign of something.

Glad to know I wasn’t the only person who spotted that.

122 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:14:47pm

re: #114 BigPapa

I’m an independent.

123 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:15:39pm

Here’s something for all of you.
theonion.com

124 jaunte  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:16:49pm

re: #120 chadu

“Again, it’s the IRS. they’re supposed to harass tax-cheats. And they’re supposed to regard everybody as a potential tax-cheat until proven otherwise. Everybody feels persecuted.”

QFT.

125 jaunte  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:17:52pm

In IRS scandal, why is any political group exempt from taxes?

…House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Thursday that she’ll push for a legal change that returns the 501 (c) 4 to its original intention of promoting social welfare.

“So from my standpoint, I think that they should not have any political purpose. And I would hope that we could change the law on that,” Pelosi said.
mcclatchydc.com

126 Dr. Matt  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:17:53pm

re: #122 Whynothonesty?

I’m an independent.

Glenn Beck and teabaggers claim to be “independent”. BFD. You’re just too cowardly to call yourself a conservative republican.

127 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:19:41pm

re: #126 Dr. Matt

Wow, lots of left wing hate here. I hope you all have a great evening.

128 EPR-radar  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:20:35pm

re: #122 Whynothonesty?

I’m an independent.

Pull the other one.

129 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:21:25pm

re: #127 Whynothonesty?

No worries on coming back until you’re willing to have an actual discussion, with links and evidence and facts and whatnot.

And my evening is going to be fine. :D

130 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:22:11pm

re: #129 klys

Whatnot???????? Oh my.

131 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:22:33pm

re: #130 Whynothonesty?

Sorry, was that too many syllables?

132 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:23:03pm

re: #129 klys

Really? Whatnot?

133 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:23:56pm

re: #132 Whynothonesty?

re: #131 klys

That’s special. ROFL! Your an idiot.

134 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:24:50pm

re: #133 Whynothonesty?

re: #131 klys

That’s special. ROFL! Your an idiot.

Still not clear on the difference between the second person possessive and the contraction of ‘you’ and ‘are’, I see.

135 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:25:14pm

re: #134 GeneJockey

Still not clear on the difference between the second person possessive and the contraction of ‘you’ and ‘are’, I see.

I get a cookie when the troll calls me an idiot, right?

136 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:25:30pm

re: #129 klys

So to have a discussion with you requires agreement with your views and the use of the “word” whatnot?

137 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:26:33pm

re: #134 GeneJockey

Hey gene jockey - eat a cookie idiot.

138 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:27:59pm

re: #137 Whynothonesty?

Hey gene jockey - eat a cookie idiot.

Not much good at punctuation and the proper use of the spacebar and shift key, either, I note.

139 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:29:07pm

re: #137 Whynothonesty?

Hey gene jockey - eat a cookie idiot.

What’s a cookie idiot?

140 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:29:21pm

re: #138 GeneJockey

Not much good at punctuation and the proper use of the spacebar and shift key, either, I note.

Do you want chocolate chip or oatmeal raisin?

141 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:29:48pm

Why is it that the intellectual ( in their minds) left wing thinkers always look for ways to denigrate When they lose a debate? I guess it has to do with a low self esteem. By the way, cookies will make you fat.


Whatnot?

142 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:30:12pm

re: #140 klys and whatnot

Do you want chocolate chip or oatmeal raisin?

What(not), no peanut butter?

143 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:31:29pm

re: #139 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

What’s a cookie idiot?

I’m going to go with a headless gingerbread man.

Kind of cute how he thinks there was a debate.

144 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:31:38pm

re: #136 Whynothonesty?

So to have a discussion with you requires agreement with your views and the use of the “word” whatnot?

what*not (hwtnt, hwt-, wt-, wt-)
n.
1. A minor or unspecified object or article.
2. A set of light, open shelves for ornaments.
pron.
Any of various additional or unspecified things or items: “family differences, differing social origins, and whatnot” (George F. Kennan).

You’re welcome!

145 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:31:57pm

re: #110 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Did you misread what I said? I said she’s completely sure she’s broken no laws.

But you think a prosecutor could get her anyway?!

146 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:32:05pm

re: #88 Whynothonesty?

I’m just asking questions. You mad bro?

147 jaunte  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:32:27pm

re: #143 klys and whatnot

Debate? Hadnot.

148 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:33:03pm

re: #141 Whynothonesty?

Why is it the wingnuts, unable to piece together a coherent argument and support it with facts, start flinging poop insult?

149 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:33:06pm

re: #146 Charles Johnson

I’m just asking questions and whatnot. You mad bro?

FTFY. For maximum effect.

150 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:34:31pm

re: #149 klys and whatnot

I think we’ve entered a whatnot whatknot.

Or would that be a “whatnot whatnotknot”?

I’m just asking questions… /

151 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:34:59pm

re: #141 Whynothonesty?

Hey, I’m completely open for debate, and you generally have to piss me off for months before I start engaging the rancor. Feel free. You haven’t really engaged with what I’ve said. Let me restate:

1. I would like investigation of all ‘charitable’ organizations because there’s a lot of fraud there.

2. Since we can’t investigate them all, I’d like us to focus on those we have some reason to think are scams.

3. There’s a lot of scamming in the area of stuff that’s ‘green’, ‘sustainable’, ‘organic’, and also in the area of ‘patriotic’ ‘patriot’ ‘tea party’, etc.

If you think this is too biased, I can understand, but do you get that I, for one, would welcome an investigation of all ‘green’ charities, precisely because I’m an environmentalist? Any that are scams I want brought down.

152 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:35:20pm

re: #150 chadu

I think we’ve entered a whatnot whatknot.

Of all the things to apparently take offense at, the existence of the word whatnot is a rather odd one.

Maybe there was some trauma as a child.

153 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:36:24pm

re: #151 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Hear, hear!

154 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:36:38pm

re: #151 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

You are a better person than I. I require some sign of honest willingness to engage in debate within the first 20 posts or so (something beyond talking points and actually responding to what was said). Don’t get that, I’m off to posting kitty pictures and correcting grammar and whatnot.

155 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:37:51pm

re: #154 klys and whatnot

Weirdly, engaging thoughtfully and forthrightly with people like what I think this person is, is almost like trolling them. It’s not something they’re generally prepared to deal with.

156 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:42:33pm

re: #155 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Weirdly, engaging thoughtfully and forthrightly with people like what I think this person is, is almost like trolling them. It’s not something they’re generally prepared to deal with.

True. A surprisingly large percentage of people on the right seem to think that “You’re an idiot. Suck on that, Libtard” is a meaningful debating point, whereas a fact-based refutation of their point is trolling.

157 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:45:15pm

re: #156 GeneJockey

True. A surprisingly large percentage of people on the right seem to think that “You’re an idiot. Suck on that, Libtard” is a meaningful debating point, whereas a fact-based refutation of their point is trolling.

YOU UNINTELLIGENT “INTELLECTUAL” LEFTY. YOUR STUPID.

//

158 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:47:21pm

re: #157 klys and whatnot

You forgot the randomly misplaced spaces.

159 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:48:24pm

re: #158 GeneJockey

You forgot the randomly misplaced spaces.

Damn. You’re right.

160 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:50:37pm

re: #159 klys and whatnot

Damn . your right .

FTFY

161 KingKenrod  Wed, May 22, 2013 12:55:00pm

re: #151 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Hey, I’m completely open for debate, and you generally have to piss me off for months before I start engaging the rancor. Feel free. You haven’t really engaged with what I’ve said. Let me restate:

1. I would like investigation of all ‘charitable’ organizations because there’s a lot of fraud there.

2. Since we can’t investigate them all, I’d like us to focus on those we have some reason to think are scams.

3. There’s a lot of scamming in the area of stuff that’s ‘green’, ‘sustainable’, ‘organic’, and also in the area of ‘patriotic’ ‘patriot’ ‘tea party’, etc.

If you think this is too biased, I can understand, but do you get that I, for one, would welcome an investigation of all ‘green’ charities, precisely because I’m an environmentalist? Any that are scams I want brought down.

I’m sure there’s scamming and politicking in tea party groups, but since the link chadu provided in #120 says all the applicants were eventually approved, it suggests that fraud isn’t really that rampant, at least in the groups that stuck the process out. You have to wonder how many of these groups withdrew their applications once the IRS started poking around.

162 bratwurst  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:02:42pm

re: #122 Whynothonesty?

I’m an independent.

My suspicion is that the majority of self-identified “independents” today are people embarrassed that they voted for George W. Bush twice.

163 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:03:58pm

re: #116 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

It’s trite, but it’s true that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich. But even if she’s not very worried about jail, what is an appropriate level of worry you’re prepared to accept, indeed? Is it 1/100 chance? 1/1000?

So we set the bar for the 5th really really low in this particular instance. the wisdom of that will fail as soon as it lets a real serious crook from within government off the hook at some future date.

Oh if the shoe ere on the other partisan foot so much would be said differently by so many.

164 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:06:00pm
165 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:09:08pm

re: #163 Political Atheist

So we set the bar for the 5th really really low in this particular instance. the wisdom of that will fail as soon as it lets a real serious crook from within government off the hook at some future date.

I’m not sure how you got to there from where we started. I mean, the Speaker of the House wants somebody jailed, and from the reports I’ve read, she seems to be the highest ranking person in the IRS that they think they can find something on. She’d have to be an IDIOT not to take the 5th, and her lawyer would have to be a very, very bad lawyer not to advise her to do so.

166 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:12:22pm

re: #165 GeneJockey

I think you ignore the option I mentioned above. Easy peasy-Immunity compels testimony. Her lawyer should demand that long before taking the 5th. And BTW did she accidentally waive that with her opening statement? Some lawyers can argue that either way quite well.

167 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:14:40pm

re: #123 Whynothonesty?

Here’s something for all of you.
theonion.com

bwahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!

168 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:16:40pm

re: #161 KingKenrod

I’m sure there’s scamming and politicking in tea party groups, but since the link chadu provided in #120 says all the applicants were eventually approved, it suggests that fraud isn’t really that rampant, at least in the groups that stuck the process out. You have to wonder how many of these groups withdrew their applications once the IRS started poking around.

I think I have higher standards than the IRS for what I consider scammy, too. I’m not sure whether my standards are actually good for national policy. When I say scammy, I include groups that push climate change denial, for example, even though there are true believers there too. But those groups are almost certainly 100% bulletproof, given the vagueness and looseness of our laws in this area.

169 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:19:46pm

re: #155 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

I’m totally prepared to deal with you or anybody else. I guess what is really clear is, this is a forum where disagreeing or taking an opposing view subjects one to abuse. Hey, it’s all good. I love the interaction and if you want to call me names or hate me for having a view that is outside your (is this ok? ) opinion, then fine. Most of the positions we agree on or disagree with have validity. It is always incumbent on each of us to keep asking questions to get to the truth. I wish Ms. Lerner would have stood her ground so she could answer the questions and maybe we could get past this. But she didn’t, and that is unfortunate.

170 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:20:34pm

re: #163 Political Atheist

So we set the bar for the 5th really really low in this particular instance. t

No, man, I don’t set the bar. People set that bar for themselves. I’m not going to decide for someone else how much they should fear imprisonment, especially in an area I know fuck-all about. This isn’t a homicide, she’s not keeping Jack the Ripper free.

the wisdom of that will fail as soon as it lets a real serious crook from within government off the hook at some future date.

The wisdom of what? A real serious crook would, of course, take the fifth. You’re not being very coherent.

Oh if the shoe ere on the other partisan foot so much would be said differently by so many.

Have you missed the fact that I am basically calling for investigations into whether charitable groups with ‘green’ or ‘sustainable’ in their name get investigated? See, because I care deeply about it, I want it clean, and I want any scammers gone. I welcome investigation into the charities associated with issues I care about, because i don’t want people’s money on an issue I care deeply about being misspent on fraudulent assholes.

Or, to put it another way, back during the heyday of the mob it was absolutely appropriate for a union in known gangster territory to get investigated.

So put the shoe on my foot, I like it fine.

171 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:21:09pm

re: #169 Whynothonesty?

Thanks, but I asked a question, and you failed to answer it. Can you try, please?

172 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:24:16pm

re: #170 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Have you missed the fact that I am basically calling for investigations into whether charitable groups with ‘green’ or ‘sustainable’ in their name get investigated? See, because I care deeply about it, I want it clean, and I want any scammers gone. I welcome investigation into the charities associated with issues I care about, because i don’t want people’s money on an issue I care deeply about being misspent on fraudulent assholes.

Or, to put it another way, back during the heyday of the mob it was absolutely appropriate for a union in known gangster territory to get investigated.

So put the shoe on my foot, I like it fine.

QFT.

173 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:25:55pm

Back in my younger days (when I was also a tornado chaser) I was employed as an auditor for the IRS for a few years. This was in the very early 1980s, and I’ve slept quite a bit since then, but here are some particular memories of “profiling” (which was very common…it was called “flagging”) that could result in a possible audit:

#1: charitable contributions, and not necessarily in excess of 10% of income (although the latter would definitely have triggered a closer look before audit).
#2: disaster loss. Don’t know if this is an actual allowable deduction these days, but a significant disaster loss was always flagged for review.
#3: any and all financial holdings in the Cayman Islands; this was because back in the day, the Caymans were a very popular place for drug money laundering.
#4: (this one is my favorite because I actually audited more than one person who did this) claiming your household pets (usually your dogs) as dependents. One person I audited claimed upwards to 14 Dobermans (the number might be off by one or two) and was incensed…INCENSED I tell you, that we DARED to audit his return.

So, call it profiling, call it flagging based on general past/current possibility of abuse of a particular category, it has always been thus and shall always be…

174 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:26:44pm

re: #173 Backwoods_Sleuth

Man, you have had a ton of interesting jobs, haven’t you.

175 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:29:43pm

re: #174 klys and whatnot

Man, you have had a ton of interesting jobs, haven’t you.

Renaissance Woman…that would be me…
:)

176 klys and whatnot  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:31:06pm

re: #175 Backwoods_Sleuth

Nothing wrong with that, I’m still trying to figure out what I’m going to do…

177 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:31:27pm

re: #174 klys and whatnot

Man, you have had a ton of interesting jobs, haven’t you.

And maybe one day, should the topic ever arise, I’ll share about that time I worked (for maybe two months back in the early 1970s) for Larry Flynt….

178 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:32:55pm

re: #176 klys and whatnot

Nothing wrong with that, I’m still trying to figure out what I’m going to do…

I’ll be 61 years old in June…I’m still trying to figure out what I’m going to do.
The journey is the best part because I already know the destination…

179 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:33:41pm

re: #171 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

You’re welcome. What was the question? I was commenting on this statement by you.” Weirdly, engaging thoughtfully and forthrightly with people like what I think this person is, is almost like trolling them. It’s not something they’re generally prepared to deal with.”

180 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:34:31pm

re: #179 Whynothonesty?

If you think this is too biased, I can understand, but do you get that I, for one, would welcome an investigation of all ‘green’ charities, precisely because I’m an environmentalist? Any that are scams I want brought down.

181 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:34:32pm

re: #178 Backwoods_Sleuth

I’ll be 61 years old in June…I’m still trying to figure out what I’m going to do.
The journey is the best part because I already know the destination…

The wife will be 60 in Dec. She’s still trying to figure out when to retire.

182 Political Atheist  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:34:37pm

re: #170 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

You can wish for a different policy. I do too. But the policy is “objective”. Todays topic is about responsible parties taking the 5th in a congressional hearing. policy as was set was followed or it was not. If not, then we get to see why, and how and when. Unless the people responsible take the 5th. Then we nothin.

I’m not comfortable with government officials taking the 5th in Congressional hearings. Again-Offer immunity and compel the testimony.If there was no crime as she says then it’s easy once offered immunity. No sweat at all.

183 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:38:55pm

re: #151 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

I agree- I think we need to understand better the issue at hand, which is why the IRS investigates certain groups and seemingly brushes over others. It can’t be just a few people in an office in Ohio making these decisions.

184 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:39:21pm

re: #182 Political Atheist

I’m not comfortable with government officials taking the 5th in Congressional hearings. Again-Offer immunity and compel the testimony.If there was no crime as she says then it’s easy once offered immunity. No sweat at all.

I think that this is an interesting point worthy of debate. I’m unsure if I agree with your perspective or Obdi’s (that this will simply be a witch hunt, thus possibly requiring she take the 5th).

185 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:39:33pm

re: #180 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

If you think this is too biased, I can understand, but do you get that I, for one, would welcome an investigation of all ‘green’ charities, precisely because I’m an environmentalist? Any that are scams I want brought down.

See 183.

186 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:42:14pm

re: #183 Whynothonesty?

I agree- I think we need to understand better the issue at hand, which is why the IRS investigates certain groups and seemingly brushes over others. It can’t be just a few people in an office in Ohio making these decisions.

Why not?

By that I mean you have a large underfunded, understaffed organizationtasked with doing more than they can do. Let’s give you 5x as many applications as you can realistically vet in the time required, and see if you don’t try to come up with ways to separate the likely wheat from the likely chaff.

187 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:42:52pm

re: #182 Political Atheist

You can wish for a different policy. I do too. But the policy is “objective”. Todays topic is about responsible parties taking the 5th in a congressional hearing. policy as was set was followed or it was not. If not, then we get to see why, and how and when. Unless the people responsible take the 5th. Then we nothin.

Again, I don’t think that the testimony solicited by the GOP house would get us anything at all useful, and I don’t understand why you think it would.

I’m not comfortable with government officials taking the 5th in Congressional hearings. Again-Offer immunity and compel the testimony.If there was no crime as she says then it’s easy once offered immunity. No sweat at all.

Wow. Okay. Is that, um, constitutional?

188 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:44:21pm

re: #183 Whynothonesty?

Link to Pie Chart Breakdown

from: bradblog.com

189 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:47:08pm

re: #186 GeneJockey

It’s seems unlikely to me. I live in the DC area and know many people who work for the government. Their comments about their jobs are unsettling. Not only do I know worker bees, but I have spent time with more then a few director level folks. It’s more likely that a low level staffer does what their told and not what will allow them to get through their work load.

190 iossarian  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:47:14pm

One thing I want to know is, how did the IRS automatically flag groups that had misspelled “Tea Party” in their names?

They must have some nifty partial-string-matching algorithms over there in Cincinnati.

191 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:48:25pm

re: #189 Whynothonesty?

I’m sorry, but you’re not really a trustable authority, so citing yourself as a reference isn’t worth anything.

192 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:48:44pm

re: #188 chadu

Thanks

193 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:49:56pm

re: #187 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Wow. Okay. Is that, um, constitutional?

Apparently, the hatchling isn’t constitutionally conversant with the fifth amendment…

194 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:51:37pm

re: #189 Whynothonesty?

It’s seems unlikely to me. I live in the DC area and know many people who work for the government. Their comments about their jobs are unsettling. Not only do I know worker bees, but I have spent time with more then a few director level folks. It’s more likely that a low level staffer does what their told and not what will allow them to get through their work load.

Actually, it seems MORE likely to me, since the lower down the tree, the less thought the worker will give to “Jesus, this will sound REAL BAD if it gets out”.

195 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:51:50pm

re: #191 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts
re: #191 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Well, that’s an opinion you can have. I still think that most people follow and don’t lead.

196 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:52:06pm

re: #189 Whynothonesty?

It’s seems unlikely to me. I live in the DC area and know many people who work for the government. Their comments about their jobs are unsettling. Not only do I know worker bees, but I have spent time with more then a few director level folks. It’s more likely that a low level staffer does what their told and not what will allow them to get through their work load.

(emphasis mine)

What if “does what they’re told” = “process 5x more files than they can realistically vet in that time” (i.e., “their work load”)?

I also live in Metro DC, and have spent time with government worker bees and directors, and the equation above represents a lot of their grousing about their jobs.

197 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:52:36pm

re: #192 Whynothonesty?

De nada.

198 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:52:52pm

re: #195 Whynothonesty?

re: #191 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Well, that’s an opinion you can have. I still think that most people follow and don’t lead.

Most people do a little of both.

199 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:54:16pm

re: #195 Whynothonesty?

re: #191 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Well, that’s an opinion you can have. I still think that most people follow and don’t lead.

“I don’t understand it. Every time the Sarge said, “Lead, follow, or get out of the way, I got out of the way.”

200 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 1:55:22pm

re: #189 Whynothonesty?

BTW, isn’t this more fun than just calling us idiots?

201 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:00:57pm

re: #193 Backwoods_Sleuth

Apparently, the hatchling isn’t constitutionally conversant with the fifth amendment…

That wasn’t a hatchling.

202 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:01:14pm

re: #195 Whynothonesty?

re: #191 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Well, that’s an opinion you can have. I still think that most people follow and don’t lead.

This is not an intelligible response to what I said.

203 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:05:27pm

re: #201 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

That wasn’t a hatchling.

ah….my mistake…

204 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:25:44pm

re: #202 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Ok, how is this. The people I know who are worker bees could care less about the job they do. They are largely uninspired. The leadership that I know ( director level) have either worked their way up from the uninspired ranks to a position of managing people. Not really leadership, but that is possibly because of the buerocracy they have to deal with on a daily basis.
Your rude, but the way.

205 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:27:05pm

re: #200 GeneJockey

Yes, this is fine- but I think we’re only a thin line away from attacking each other.

206 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:30:06pm

re: #204 Whynothonesty?

Ok, how is this. The people I know who are worker bees could care less about the job they do. They are largely uninspired. The leadership that I know ( director level) have either worked their way up from the uninspired ranks to a position of managing people. Not really leadership, but that is possibly because of the buerocracy they have to deal with on a daily basis.
Your rude, but the way.

I almost hesitate to ask this, but how are government/bureaucracy “worker bees” any different from private sector “worker bees” in terms of being “largely uninspired”?
Most private sector employees that I know dislike their jobs, dislike their bosses, etc., etc. etc.

207 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:32:34pm

re: #206 Backwoods_Sleuth

Ok, so I’ll take a shot at why. In the private sector , your fired if you’re uninspired. In the govt, you can hang on for years.

208 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:37:05pm

re: #207 Whynothonesty?

Ok, so I’ll take a shot at why. In the private sector , your fired if you’re uninspired. In the govt, you can hang on for years.

The people I know who are “uninspired” in the private sector aren’t fired because they are “uninspired”, they hang on by keeping their mouths shut in the workplace.

209 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 2:41:33pm

re: #204 Whynothonesty?

Again: I don’t know you, I don’t have any reason to treat your anecdote that happens to fit exactly in with your political philosophy with any respect as evidence. Anecdotes aren’t evidence.

Do you understand that I would welcome an IRS investigation of environmental groups to get rid of the scammers?

210 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:03:34pm

re: #208 Backwoods_Sleuth

It’s very hard to lose your job in the federal government. To fire someone for not doing their job requires many more hoops to jump through, this is a fact

211 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:06:54pm

re: #209 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

Yes, I get that. But this is not the thread we were discussing. Sorry that you don’t like my anecdote, but it’s true and factual. Clearly, you seem to assume many things, like my political philosophy. I want answers and I want people who are in charge to be held accountable. I think we’re on the same page when it comes to that.

212 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:07:42pm

re: #207 Whynothonesty?

Ok, so I’ll take a shot at why. In the private sector , your fired if you’re uninspired. In the govt, you can hang on for years.

How come so many “uninspired” CEO’s get hired for millions a year then? More like a private joke keeping the proles underfoot.

213 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:13:34pm

re: #211 Whynothonesty?

Yes, I get that. But this is not the thread we were discussing.

You’re not understanding my point, then. It’s not about this ‘thread’, it’s about the subject in general.

Sorry that you don’t like my anecdote, but it’s true and factual. Clearly, you seem to assume many things, like my political philosophy. I want answers and I want people who are in charge to be held accountable. I think we’re on the same page when it comes to that.

Please don’t assume anything, you’ve shown a remarkable inability to actually engage with what I’m saying, and very little in comprehending what I”m saying.

Reassuring me that your anecdote is true is, again, worthless, because I don’t know you or have any reason to trust you. You are someone. That’s all. Repeatedly saying “But I’m telling the truth” doesn’t change that I have no reason to believe you.

Even if I did believe your anecdote, it would remain an anecdote, and useless for an examination of the larger subject.

I want answers and I want people who are in charge to be held accountable.

Held accountable for what? And who do you mean by the people in charge?

214 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:14:03pm

re: #207 Whynothonesty?

Ok, so I’ll take a shot at why. In the private sector , your fired if you’re uninspired. In the govt, you can hang on for years.

This is not true. There are plenty of useless fuckers in corporate. Which is trivially obvious.

215 EPR-radar  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:16:01pm

re: #212 William Barnett-Lewis

How come so many “uninspired” CEO’s get hired for millions a year then? More like a private joke keeping the proles underfoot.

By now, this point can be given a larger scope.

At least three decades of worker productivity gains have been entirely captured by those at the top. Meanwhile, wages in most honest occupations have been flat or falling for 30 years.

Thus, the only thing the US private sector seems to be capable of doing these days is overcompensating executives while under-employing and otherwise abusing those who work for a living.

So there would appear to be no present basis in reality for the right wing mantra of: “private sector good, public sector bad”.

216 Whynothonesty?  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:30:18pm

re: #213 Bert’s House of Beef and Obdicuts

The thread started with Lerner invoking her 5th amendment rights. In other words, to dodge the questions. Maybe she has no answers, if this is so then sit there and take the heat. I see where you’re going with this. Your comment about uninspired CEO’s has more to do with your political philosophy then whether they are capable of leading people and creating something. Your clearly one of these folks who sits around all day bemoaning the fact that life isn’t fair and people need to be taken care of. Well, I don’t know you either and to engage you in this circular argument is nonsense. You sound like a pretentious asshole. Go make a difference in the world, dream your dreams, but please don’t ascend to any role of importance- you don’t need to, you’re already way important in your own mind. Which is obvious.

217 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:37:19pm

re: #205 Whynothonesty?

Yes, this is fine- but I think we’re only a thin line away from attacking each other.

Just don’t cross the line. Easy-peasy.

218 GeneJockey  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:53:26pm

re: #216 Whynothonesty?

The thread started with Lerner invoking her 5th amendment rights. In other words, to dodge the questions.

More like to dodge prosecution.

Maybe she has no answers, if this is so then sit there and take the heat.

I’m not sure how it could be more plain when the SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE wants people in jail, and Darrell Issa is trying to make you the face of the whole thing. When people are looking for a scapegoat, you don’t stick your head in the noose, you don’t put your neck on the block.

I see where you’re going with this. Your comment about uninspired CEO’s has more to do with your political philosophy then whether they are capable of leading people and creating something. Your clearly one of these folks who sits around all day bemoaning the fact that life isn’t fair and people need to be taken care of.

Now, see, this is where you step over that line. Obdicut makes the very accurate observation that your anecdote does not really provide factual support for your argument, because he doesn’t know you or your level of trustworthiness. What you say may well be true, but without independent verification, it’s just your opinion. Opinions are fine, but they’re not facts.

When called on this you fall back on “they work in government, so of course they’re lazy fuckups, because in the private sector that isn’t tolerated”. Well, after 32 years in the private sector, I can tell you that’s not true. I’ve seen any number of lazy, uninspired fuckoffs in the private sector. When Obdicut says much the same thing, you assume he must be one of those mythical “folks who sits around all day bemoaning the fact that life isn’t fair and people need to be taken care of” - for which you have no evidence.

Well, I don’t know you either and to engage you in this circular argument is nonsense. You sound like a pretentious asshole. Go make a difference in the world, dream your dreams, but please don’t ascend to any role of importance- you don’t need to, you’re already way important in your own mind. Which is obvious.

Obdicut is trying unsuccessfully to point out to you that you’re not supplying factual data to back up your assertions. You may, of course, say “This is what I observe, and this is why I believe this way”, but you can’t reasonably say, “This is what I observe, and so THIS IS HOW IT IS.”

You see? Again, the difference between fact and opinion. Don’t get all bent out of shape when someone points out that what you claim as fact is opinion, or if you DO get all bent out of shape, don’t be surprised if people point at you and laugh.

219 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 22, 2013 5:12:44pm

re: #216 Whynothonesty?

The thread started with Lerner invoking her 5th amendment rights. In other words, to dodge the questions. Maybe she has no answers, if this is so then sit there and take the heat. I see where you’re going with this. Your comment about uninspired CEO’s has more to do with your political philosophy then whether they are capable of leading people and creating something. Your clearly one of these folks who sits around all day bemoaning the fact that life isn’t fair and people need to be taken care of. Well, I don’t know you either and to engage you in this circular argument is nonsense. You sound like a pretentious asshole. Go make a difference in the world, dream your dreams, but please don’t ascend to any role of importance- you don’t need to, you’re already way important in your own mind. Which is obvious.

I do think that life isn’t fair, and I do think a lot of people need taking care of. Like all the people who just got hit by that tornado. And yeah, I do what I can to help people like that by volunteering my time. I don’t think i’m important for doing so— millions of others do so too. Humans help each other out.

You haven’t really answered any of my questions or explained your position at all well, and I’m sorry, but that isn’t my fault.


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