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1 EPR-radar  Wed, May 22, 2013 4:43:09pm

IIRC, the traditional RCC position that the Roman Catholic Church was the sole possibility for salvation was either abandoned or significantly weakened in Vatican II. However, this change in doctrine is not often mentioned by RCC officials.

+1 for Pope Francis.

2 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 7:12:25pm

Speaking as a long-lapsed Catholic, Pope Francis is the freaking BOMB!

(He’s got nasty bits I don’t agree with, but he’s Pope-ing up a storm in the very best way.)

3 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, May 22, 2013 7:58:53pm

re: #2 chadu

Speaking as a long-lapsed Catholic, Pope Francis is the freaking BOMB!

(He’s got nasty bits I don’t agree with, but he’s Pope-ing up a storm in the very best way.)

Understood. As a High Church Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian (radical theologically/reactionary liturgically ;) I’m not about to swim the Tiber for him, either. But OTOH, if he helps bring some of the good stuff back to the fore? Then he helps everyone in the world.

4 bmoak  Wed, May 22, 2013 8:06:46pm

Can anyone imagine his predecessor making such a statement?

5 EiMitch  Wed, May 22, 2013 8:14:43pm

There is a minor inaccuracy in this story:

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.*

* - Provided of course, that they’re either dudebros or chicks who know their place.

Fixed.

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe his “doing good is more important than dogma” posturing after he criticized American nuns for precisely that.

“But, but, but… But he’s way more awesome than the last pope!” Yeah, like that was a tough act to follow.

6 chadu  Wed, May 22, 2013 11:16:12pm

re: #5 EiMitch

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe his “doing good is more important than dogma” posturing after he criticized American nuns for precisely that.

“But, but, but… But he’s way more awesome than the last pope!” Yeah, like that was a tough act to follow.

Nah, you’re right: Pope Frankie is more than a little inconsistent, granted.

And some of what he says versus some of what he says/does is seriously whack. It’s almost if he was raised in a hyper-patriarchal culture in a patriarchal time (marked by upheavals in his church).

This is said, neither to excuse/exonerate him, nor to condemn him. He’s a person of his time.

All that held in abeyance for the mo: I like a Pope who focuses more on St. Francis of Assisi rather than a Roman potentate.

Time will tell, and my suspicion is Pope Francis will confound observers with totally awesome actions and totally retrogressive statements at the same time.

(I think the actions will have the greater effect for good, because who seriously listens to the Vatican any more? But, ah ha, who watches the Vatican any more?)

7 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, May 23, 2013 1:10:44am

Here’s something new, a universalist Pope. Some of the more conservative elements’ heads (Santorum’s, por ejemplo) must be exploding right now.

8 John Vreeland  Thu, May 23, 2013 4:12:10am

Santorum believes that protestants are going to hell, but you won’t ever hear him disparage the people who make up the core of his constituency.

9 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 23, 2013 11:51:46am

I like seeing this. It really beats the old “You’re still going to hell no matter how good you did on this earth because you never accepted Christ.”

10 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 23, 2013 11:52:02am

re: #8 John Vreeland

Santorum believes that protestants are going to hell, but you won’t ever hear him disparage the people who make up the core of his constituency.

And they likewise think he is too.

11 dragonath  Thu, May 23, 2013 1:03:20pm

It echoes the Epistle of James:

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

This is, as I recall, almost the opposite of what Paul wrote in Romans.

12 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 23, 2013 4:59:10pm

re: #11 dragonath

It echoes the Epistle of James:

This is, as I recall, almost the opposite of what Paul wrote in Romans.

There is a theory that James, the brother of Jesus, who was the leader of the church in Jerusalem wrote that letter as a corrective to Paul’s statements. There is another theory that it was written for teaching in the synagogues and later repurposed by the earliest Christians.

I find it to be a very important part of my understanding of what a Christian is, especially the passage at 2:14-17 which dovetails well with Matthew 25:31-46 and the later prophets (see Micah 6:8 for example.).

None of this means much if you’re not Christian obviously, but to simply live while treating others the way you’d want to be treated is, in the end, the goal of many different ways of living: en.wikipedia.org

13 Cardio (formerly JRCMYP)  Thu, May 23, 2013 5:15:39pm

So…this is my personal issue with Catholicism. I grew up in the 70s and was a teen in the early 80s. I went to Catholic schools. Both in high school and in College. I was taught by Dominicans and Jesuits. The big take-away for me was social justice and common sense. For example, if you’re going to have sex, use birth control because that is less of a sin than abortion. Fair enough, I thought. Love thy neighbor as yourself….that’s a big deal. We paid attention. We live in a society, foster that society. Of course, we said. Are you gay? The *teachings* say it’s wrong but, people are the way they are says science, and we Catholics believe in science…

But that was the local priests and nuns. It was all local. I grew up in New England. The Catholics were 2nd or 3rd generation Irish, Italian or Polish. Working class. Very down to earth. I’m of the Irish variety. Not holy rollers. My people were all about social justice. So, the contradiction is HUGE with the new Catholics. I don’t get it. I keep thinking, “where is the social justice?” Why are they against healthcare? What about the necessity of decreasing abortions??

So. Francis? God love ‘em. I hope he means what he says. I hope he’s like my high school priest (who, by the way, is the same priest that lives in Newtown and worked with the grieved families). But I lost my faith in God. Way before I met the Jesuits, by the way ;) I just want a society that respects itself. I’d hope that the Catholic church would find it’s mid-20th century roots and lead the way.

14 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, May 23, 2013 6:22:29pm

re: #11 dragonath

It echoes the Epistle of James:

This is, as I recall, almost the opposite of what Paul wrote in Romans.

Faith vs. deeds was one of the big doctrinal splits between the RC Church and Protestants. Calvin, for one, said that faith was all that was necessary for salvation, and deeds made no difference at all. (I hope I am remembering this correctly.) Calvin was also into predestination, so if you were already deemed a sinner by God, no amount of good deeds was going to help that.

Spin the clock forward to the 20th and 21st centuries, and we see a more modern version of the importance of faith vs. deeds. Someone can cheat on his wife (even while she’s dying of cancer), be a serial husband, and lie repeatedly through his (or her) teeth, and all they need to do to clean their sin slate is to repent and ask forgiveness. Lather, rinse. Repeat as necessary.

James’ admonition to combine faith *with* deeds somehow got lost several hundred years ago among many Christians. I’m glad that Pope Francis is reminding at least his flock to practice what they preach.


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