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1 Skip Intro  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:46:26am
In many ways, he’s the Republicans’ vehicle for budget negotiations,” said Jeff Gorell (R-Camarillo)

What total bull. He’s a pragmatic Democrat, who is only able to get things done because the voters finally voted the Terrorist Party into insignificance. Were they still holding power, this state would be back of the fast track to financial disaster.

2 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:22:45am

re: #1 Skip Intro

What total bull. He’s a pragmatic Democrat, who is only able to get things done because the voters finally voted the Terrorist Party into insignificance. Were they still holding power, this state would be back of the fast track to financial disaster.

Not at all. Here is why I think so. When you look at what Brown wanted as compared to the Dem legislature early proposals, your point falls. The most powerful Dems come from Sacramento, Berkley and San Francisco. Not bastions of pragmatics, but the homes of strident advocacy instead. The Dem majority in the legislature goes way back.

When Gov Arnold made very similar proposals including a vote on tax increases he was laughed at and humiliated by the legislature. What a difference party affiliation makes. Brown has fiscal proposal similarities to Schwarzenegger just as Obama has fiscal similarities to Bush. Sheer necessity has won the day. Finally (late!) it overcame party hack politics.

IMO if a Republican Gov had won & had made identical proposals to Browns we would not have a budget. We would have a repeat of obstructionism and turf wars.

3 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:23:21am

I’m not sure that’s going to help.

Those who label themselves ‘conservative’ regard anyone who doesn’t share their views to the fourth decimal place as an un-American communist/muslim.

So being ‘less liberal’ takes them only to the second decimal place, which is two magnitudes too far away to be supported by ‘conservatives.’

4 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:30:57am

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

Fiscal, not social conservative. Huge diff there.

5 Skip Intro  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:45:59am

re: #2 Political Atheist

When Gov Arnold made very similar proposals including a vote on tax increases he was laughed at and humiliated by the legislature. What a difference party affiliation makes.

No, the difference is not having enough Republicans in office to block getting 67% of the vote to increase taxes. Arnold couldn’t do that because of his party.

Sure, there are crazy liberals in the CA Assembly and Senate. Fortunately, CA voters tend to vote in moderates for governor. If, say, Gavin Newsom were governor now, we’d be screwed, cubed. Fortunately, Brown is rational, as was Arnold, but unlike Arnold is able to beat the crazies in his party into submission most of the time.

6 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 9:57:14am

re: #5 Skip Intro

Arnold fiscal proposals were opposed by the Dems as well. It’s not either/or. Then the people rejected his tax increase in the special election. Fiscal conservatism was utterly unwelcome. It still is but the numbers don’t care who likes what. California has enjoyed excellent revenues and the spending commitments managed to exceed them before the recession. The the recession hit and we had those rosy scenario bills to pay. Pensions etc. No matter how high revenues get the fight to spend/exceed them is on each and every year.

7 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:05:48am

re: #1 Skip Intro

What total bull. He’s a pragmatic Democrat, who is only able to get things done because the voters finally voted the Terrorist Party into insignificance. Were they still holding power, this state would be back of the fast track to financial disaster.

The GOP is out of power almost entirely, so their only chance of appearing relevant is trying to claim Brown is one of them.

8 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:06:42am

re: #4 Political Atheist

Fiscal, not social conservative. Huge diff there.

“fiscal conservative” these days, I’m afraid, means “Ayn Rand afficianado’. The general GOP economic philosophy has lurched as far to the right as their stances on social issues have.

9 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:07:32am

re: #7 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Actions are doing the talking this time. Solid fiscally wise actions as proposed by the Governor. We had to hit bottom first apparently.

10 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:10:00am

re: #9 Political Atheist

“We” didn’t get anywhere near hitting bottom. Sure, you could say Brown resembles the Republicans from, say, 1992. Not the GOP of today.

Now that the radical GOP stumbling block is gone in California, tax increases are possible again. I really hope the Democrats don’t squander this opportunity and try to revise the budget process and the stupid proposition system, too.

11 Skip Intro  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:17:03am

re: #10 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I really hope the Democrats don’t squander this opportunity and try to revise the budget process and the stupid proposition system, too.

Brown did manage to get his more “realistic” budget passed, as opposed to the pie-in-the-sky one the legislators wanted.

The referendum system here scares the crap out of me, though. Voters seem to have no problem voting for Constitutional changes that mandate a fixed percentage of the budget go to this program or that. Someday they’re going to mandate that 110% of the budget be spent this way, with no thought whatever to other state expenses, like pensions.

12 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:17:13am

re: #8 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

“fiscal conservative” these days, I’m afraid, means “Ayn Rand afficianado’.

I do not agree the extremists get to re define the term for my use, especially here in a more local circumstance. Jerry Brown has been a man that acts on his fiscal conservatism. In every term.

Buying into the extremists definition muddies the waters for discussion. Compare Gavin Newsom and Jerry Brown is a fiscal policy regard. “less liberal” comes up awfully short. Unless you let the Randians set the terms. I don’t.

re: #10 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The fiscal reality as the recession cut revenues (that were wholly adequate before, as evidenced by expanded safety nets and troubling pension deals) is the driver here. Not Prop 13, not the politics, not the parties. The state balance was staring the abyss in the face.

13 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:20:55am

re: #12 Political Atheist

I do not agree the extremists get to re define the term for my use, especially here in a more local circumstance. Jerry Brown has been a man that acts on his fiscal conservatism. In every term.

Okay. What you call ‘fiscal conservatism’ is mainstream in the Democratic party, and rejected by the GOP.

The fiscal reality as the recession cut revenues (that were wholly adequate before, as evidenced by expanded safety nets and troubling pension deals) is the driver here. Not Prop 13, not the politics, not the parties. The state balance was staring the abyss in the face.

I have no clue what this is supposed to be in reference to.

14 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:21:28am

These “radical” California republicans-
The Republican Plan

To erase the deficit, Republicans are building off of Brown’s non-tax ideas. Those include $4.2 billion in spending cuts, such as slashing welfare-to-work by $1 billion, and $1.4 billion in accounting maneuvers and delayed debt repayment. Democrats have already indicated they do not support all of Brown’s cuts.

Read more here: blogs.sacbee.com

You can find radical proposals on both sides. This time a fiscal conservative won the day, and I applaud him for it. He just happens to be a Dem I support on things fiscal. Governor Jerry Brown.

15 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:23:34am

re: #13 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay. What you call ‘fiscal conservatism’ is mainstream in the Democratic party, and rejected by the GOP..

It’s not mainstream for the powerful California Dem legislators up north. Not at all. The discussion is different than the national debate. Not the same situation.

16 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:30:20am

re: #15 Political Atheist

It’s not mainstream for the powerful California Dem legislators up north. Not at all. The discussion is different than the national debate. Not the same situation.

Something isn’t mainstream for individuals. In the Democratic party, including the Democratic party in California, fiscal conservatism of the type you’re describing is mainstream.

That there are Democrats in California who are more ‘liberal’ doesn’t detract from that at all.

17 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 10:45:13am

re: #16 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m applauding a fiscal conservative policy win today right where it belongs. It works. All the rest is obviously a matter of opinion. We assess the Northern Ca Dems differently. Fair enough.

Do you disagree with me on applauding Jerry Brown or this budget?

18 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:03:02am

re: #17 Political Atheist

I’m applauding a fiscal conservative policy win today right where it belongs. It works. All the rest is obviously a matter of opinion. We assess the Northern Ca Dems differently. Fair enough.

Do you disagree with me on applauding Jerry Brown or this budget?

What the hell are you asking me if I disagree for? Have I said anything that sounds like disagreement?

And why are you pretending I said anything about Northern Dems? Reread what the hell I said. I said “That there are Democrats in California who are more ‘liberal’ doesn’t detract from that at all.”

How on earth, from that, do you get me assessing the northern California Democrats (no clue why you’re leaving out the very liberal LA democrats, either) differently from you?

19 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:11:02am

re: #18 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

What the hell are you asking me if I disagree for? Have I said anything that sounds like disagreement?

Rhetorical, mostly. I thought you might have something to say about the budget.

And why are you pretending I said anything about Northern Dems? Reread what the hell I said. I said “That there are Democrats in California who are more ‘liberal’ doesn’t detract from that at all.”

I referred to the more powerful legislators, who are up north and you seem to refer to them as a few individuals. Sure they are individuals, individuals that are power brokers and legislators.

How on earth, from that, do you get me assessing the northern California Democrats (no clue why you’re leaving out the very liberal LA democrats, either) differently from you?

Nothing more than the impression I get from your entries.

LA liberals? SoCal is not the power base, up north is. Thats my conclusion from my own reading, mostly LA Times. Looked at committee heads etc.
In the context of this state fiscal policy topic.

20 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:13:05am

re: #19 Political Atheist

Rhetorical, mostly. I thought you might have something to say about the budget.

I don’t get it. You pretended I disagreed for rhetoric’s sake?

I referred to the more powerful legislators, who are up north and you seem to refer to them as a few individuals. Sure they are individuals, individuals that are power brokers and legislators.

There are powerful legislators from LA, too.

Nothing more than the impression I get from your entries.

Yeah. I’m saying you should back this up with something specific from my entries, because your habit of leaping to assumptions about what I think is really fucking annoying. So back up your claim.

21 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:25:51am

re: #20 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I don’t get it. You pretended I disagreed for rhetoric’s sake?

Not pretending anything. I pointed out where we agree and inquired a little further.

There are powerful legislators from LA, too.

Sure. But this was not their day really. It fell largely to others.

Yeah. I’m saying you should back this up with something specific from my entries, because your habit of leaping to assumptions about what I think is really fucking annoying. So back up your claim.

As follows

re: #15 Political Atheist

It’s not mainstream for the powerful California Dem legislators up north. Not at all. The discussion is different than the national debate. Not the same situation.

Something isn’t mainstream for individuals. In the Democratic party, including the Democratic party in California, fiscal conservatism of the type you’re describing is mainstream.

That there are Democrats in California who are more ‘liberal’ doesn’t detract from that at all.

We disagree on a couple things in there, your assessment of our Dem legislature and your term “individuals” who I put more weight on. This seems like small stuff, quibbles really. You seem a bit annoyed, I’m just trying to have a casual conversation with you. Really had no intent to annoy you.

22 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:28:55am

re: #21 Political Atheist

Not pretending anything. I pointed out where we agree and inquired a little further.

You stated this:

We assess the Northern Ca Dems differently.

Show me how we assess them differently.

We disagree on a couple things in there, your assessment of our Dem legislature and your term “individuals” who I put more weight on.

Again, where’s the disagreement? Show me. Don’t assert. Show.

23 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:31:10am

re: #22 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You called them mere “individuals”. I called them “powerful legislators”.

What is the big deal here?

24 dragonath  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:40:21am

Just because Brown is fiscally logical doesn’t mean that he is in any way “conservative” as defined by the Republican party. Brown is closer to the Republicans in as much as he would rather lance a boil than cut off an arm.

25 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:47:12am

re: #23 Political Atheist

You called them mere “individuals”. I called them “powerful legislators”.

What is the big deal here?

Dude, they are also individuals. You can’t deny that they’re individuals. For fuck’s sake.

The big deal is what it usually is: You pretending I’m saying things I’m not. I’m really sick of it.

26 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:50:10am

re: #24 dragonath

I think it’s defined by his actions. If “conservative” has become too loaded a word, I need another that works. “Less liberal” just ain’t it. I happen to reject the idea of the Tea Party redefining the term.

It’s not really about closer to republicans it’s about closer to conservative actions and policies. Conservative as in carefully conserve the money in the budget.

Wiki
After taking office, Brown gained a reputation as a fiscal conservative.[10] The American Conservative later noted he was “much more of a fiscal conservative than Governor Reagan.”[11] His fiscal restraint resulted in one of the biggest budget surpluses in state history, roughly $5 billion.[12][13] For his personal life, Brown refused many of the privileges and perks of the office, forgoing the newly constructed governor’s residence and instead renting a modest apartment at the corner of 14th and N Streets, adjacent to Capitol Park in downtown Sacramento.[14] Instead of riding as a passenger in a chauffeured limousine as previous governors had done, Brown walked to work and drove in a Plymouth Satellite sedan.[15][16]

Look at the above and the current winning budget. It’s a good day for fiscal conservatism as a solution to the current economic situation. It’s a good day for California and a good day for Gov Jerry Brown. This is fiscal conservatism as in unattached to party, firmly attached to necessity.

But Foran said the Democrats with whom Brown is negotiating are different, too.

“The Democrats, particularly those that have gone through this horrible deficit every year, wanted - whether they say it outwardly, they want a situation in which they don’t have this terrible deficit every year to face,” Foran said. “So I think they probably are more pragmatic than they used to be.”

Democratic lawmakers said this week that they may revisit their call for additional spending at midyear if state revenues outpace Brown’s expectations. They will have little leverage, however, and Brown suggested he has little interest in such a reopening.

“In general,” Brown said Tuesday, “I think prudence rather than exuberance should be the order of the day.”

Brown is expected to run for re-election next year, and Democrats will be seeking to maintain their narrow supermajority in the Legislature. If revenue grows, as Democrats expect, having a budget surplus to point to could be politically appealing.

Read more here: fresnobee.com

27 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 11:57:26am

re: #25 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’m not denying they are individuals. The way you used the word diminished their influence in the process. Below the reality IMO. But whatever. Your “individual” is my powerbroker in the recent budget. We got 98 million individuals. We have a few powerbrokers elected into office.

I’m not pretending you said anything you did not actually say. You entered “individual”. I did not put that word in your mouth. If I am misunderstanding you it’s on you as much as me.

28 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 12:00:56pm

re: #27 Political Atheist

I’m not denying they are individuals. The way you used the word diminished their influence in the process.

No, it didn’t. That’s where you start reading shit into it. I did not mean that in the least. That’s a big ol’ leap to take, and no reason to do it.

Below the reality IMO. But whatever. Your “individual” is my powerbroker in the recent budget. We got 98 million individuals. We have a few powerbrokers elected into office.

Holy fuck, you think I was seriously saying they don’t have power? Come on.

I’m not pretending you said anything you did not actually say. You entered “individual”. I did not put that word in your mouth. If I am misunderstanding you it’s on you as much as me.

Yeah, pretending I meant that they were individuals just like anyone else, with no power, that’s totally legitimate.

For fuck’s sake.

29 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 12:05:58pm

re: #28 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Dude you are reading a whole bunch of hostility into some very straightforward entries. Whatever, it’s the internet FFS. I should not be surprised.

30 dragonath  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 12:09:11pm

re: #26 Political Atheist

Sorry, but I find the term “fiscally conservative” to be essentially a meaningless and amorphous phrase in American politics. By definition, any municipality that is able to pay its bills is, by definition, conservative.

Furthermore, the implication is that you can’t trust fiscal liberals, only true conservatives. Words matter.

Californian Republicans are expropriating anybody or anything that approaches this supposed fiscal conservatism in a vain attempt to appear relevant in the conversation.

31 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 12:17:58pm

re: #29 Political Atheist

Dude you are reading a whole bunch of hostility into some very straightforward entries. Whatever, it’s the internet FFS. I should not be surprised.

I’m not ‘reading’ anything into it. I’m annoyed that, yet again, you create a strawman when we’re talking and attack it. This is like you previously stating I don’t want people to be able to defend themselves, and other dumb shit like that.

In the future, try to refrain from making assumptions or inferences from what I say, because weirdly you get it wrong a lot and weirdly, you get it wrong in a way that allows you to then attack the strawman you’ve made.

32 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 1:16:38pm

re: #31 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

We are about as far apart on this as is even possible. So be it. Moving on to more worthwhile topics around here.

33 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 1:19:13pm

re: #30 dragonath

Sorry, but I find the term “fiscally conservative” to be essentially a meaningless and amorphous phrase in American politics. By definition, any municipality that is able to pay its bills is, by definition, conservative.

Furthermore, the implication is that you can’t trust fiscal liberals, only true conservatives. Words matter.

Californian Republicans are expropriating anybody or anything that approaches this supposed fiscal conservatism in a vain attempt to appear relevant in the conversation.

Well we need a term, and the dictionary along with Wiki has the term. If you find that term too loaded in a partisan sense, I’m open to suggestions for a term to use. I made no implication that fiscal liberals are not to be trusted, just not what we want or need right now in Califonias budget process. I hope you take my word for how I use the term as explained above. How others use the term is just beyond our control.

EDIT
I just do not load up conservative or liberal with party membership. That’s how I use the terms. Not pejorative or celebratory.

34 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 1:33:13pm

re: #8 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

“fiscal conservative” these days, I’m afraid, means “Ayn Rand afficianado’.

That’s not what I meant and you darn well know that. How about you take that redefinition and see how the editors at Wiki take it?

35 palomino  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 8:59:14pm

re: #9 Political Atheist

Actions are doing the talking this time. Solid fiscally wise actions as proposed by the Governor. We had to hit bottom first apparently.

But these “solid fiscally wise actions” wouldn’t qualify as such to most Republicans across the nation. And they certainly wouldn’t pass a test of conservative budgetary orthodoxy. The majority of Republicans still fantasize about putting an Ayn Rand novel into action as if that could possibly be the basis for reasonable fiscal policy.

36 Political Atheist  Mon, Jun 17, 2013 12:59:29pm

re: #35 palomino

The national GOP has nothing to do with this. It now seems that some partisans are so unhappy with the reality of a fiscally conservative budget they now have to undermine the term.

Well the term still lives in the dictionary and wiki. The reality still is the budget in California.


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