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1 calochortus  Sat, Jul 20, 2013 2:51:26pm

We’re people with any sort of independent agency, ever? Who knew?

2 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 20, 2013 3:06:43pm

I have to ask the corollary: Does the fetus become an unborn child with some rights at some point? The law’s point has been yes, given that injuring a women sufficiently advanced in pregnancy and there by causing her to lose the baby normally incurs charges both for the injury to the mother and the death of the baby.

Given that, a law against fetal homicide isn’t a deprivation of personhood if well written. It is an admission that a woman sufficiently advanced in pregnancy has a duty not just to herself but also to her unborn child.

It must also be noted, though, that the legislature drafting such a law also has a duty to properly write the law and consider how it will play out in real life. “Model Laws” are just that, models, and they sgould not be passed directly into state law but instead amended to reflect local conditions and the work women do in that state.

3 JeffFX  Sat, Jul 20, 2013 3:37:34pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I have to ask the corollary: Does the fetus become an unborn child with some rights at some point?

My view on that is that the fetus has exactly as much value as its host grants it.

If you deprive a woman of a wanted fetus, it’s completely different from someone having an unwanted embryo or fetus removed from themselves.

It’s all about individual autonomy, and there’s nothing Conservative about stripping someone’s autonomy and forcing them to gestate a fetus. The problem is the ignorant so-called “social conservatives” who could be better described as “theocratic authoritarians.”

4 elizajane  Sat, Jul 20, 2013 5:37:15pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I have to ask the corollary: Does the fetus become an unborn child with some rights at some point?

While I do see this point of view, I believe that the outcome of such laws would be a lot of women “of a certain sort, wink wink” ending up in jail for taking drugs or drinking while pregnant. Make all the warning labels you want, but a pregnant woman has got to remain an autonomous being or you are creating the worst sort of nanny state, one that (as usual on the Right) feels justified in any sort of interference to protect a child until it is born. After that, the parents can do almost anything they want and in this country they can claim parental rights. It’s madness.

I also suggest reading some of the stories in that article of ways these laws are already enforced. The woman in Ohio awaiting murder charges for attempting suicide while pregnant. The woman who was arrested (!) while in labor in her own home, taken to a hospital, and forcibly sedated and given a Cesarian Section because somebody thought it was safer for her baby than a vaginal birth. These things are atrocities and they are happening already

5 calochortus  Sat, Jul 20, 2013 6:12:08pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I think you’re well intentioned here, but the fetus’s rights supercede my own rights on the day someone can force you to donate a kidney against your wishes.

6 sauceruney  Sat, Jul 20, 2013 9:34:03pm

At what point is someone’s afterlife outcome threatened by their letting women use contraceptives, have a personal and private medical history, wear pants, work for a living, seek and attain higher education, have sex in a manner which is enjoyable to them with any partner or partners, or none, of their choosing? This is the question we need answered.

7 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:03:42am

A woman’s personhood would end the moment that woman was born if the revolutionaries running the GOP have their way.

8 freetoken  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:15:47am

From the article:

Women have to be guaranteed that when they make a decision about their pregnancy, a doctor (as just happened two weeks ago in Florida) isn’t going to send an email that says “If you don’t show up today for your cesarean surgery (that you already have scheduled two days from now), I will send police to your house.” He literally wrote that to this woman, and you have to wonder what’s happened in America that gives a doctor, who is otherwise thought to be a very good guy, the sense that he can send a letter to his patient saying, “If you don’t do what I want you to do today, I have the power to call police and send them to your house”?

This is very naive. Indeed, there are all sorts of laws requiring individuals to act as extensions of social authority, e.g., in some locations professionals are required to report child abuse.

All rights are conditional.

No rights are absolute in the sense of being independent of other people.

There is no such thing for us humans as complete autonomy.

I’m not saying that some practices by certain individuals, in these examples of cesareans, are always proper. I am saying that it is a fantasy to expect to live in a society which doesn’t empower others, in this case doctors, to make decisions for others. Indeed, the clearest examples of this are judges, who make decisions for others all the time.

9 freetoken  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:23:06am

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I have to ask the corollary: Does the fetus become an unborn child with some rights at some point?

It’s this question that has to be answered or else the strongest anti-abortion foes will always be able to sway the majority. We are hard wired to respond positively to babies - it’s part of our evolution. Thus all an anti-abortion activist has to do is show images of a fetus and as long as that fetus is developed far enough to look like a human baby then the viewer will, and again I stress that this is partly involuntary, respond with empathy and concern.

10 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 6:40:53am

re: #4 elizajane

Well, the case of Laura Pemberton in Ohio wasn’t mostly about criminal law, it was more about civil law and the hospital’s interpretation of medical ethics. The hospitals in Laura’s area were likely told by their lawyers that if so was allowed a trial labor and then lost the baby she would sue them for malpractice. Large institutions care about no one’s personhood save their own when it comes to avoiding legal liability.

11 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 9:16:49am

Either I am a human being under the law or I am not.

I can’t think of any corollary medical condition that would garner so much attention if it were a man’s body involved.

If we do not recognize the woman’s individual choice, we are opening a door to government involvement in population control.

Again, little concern is given for the lives already born.

12 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 10:14:51am

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

Well, the case of Laura Pemberton in Ohio wasn’t mostly about criminal law, it was more about civil law and the hospital’s interpretation of medical ethics. The hospitals in Laura’s area were likely told by their lawyers that if she was allowed a trial labor and then lost the baby she would sue them for malpractice. Large institutions care about no one’s personhood save their own when it comes to avoiding legal liability.

PIMF


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