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1 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 10:22:38am

Go CRS! Pound the bigots down!

2 JeffFX  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 11:40:50am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Go CRS! Pound the bigots down!

You’re not clear on who the bigots are in this situation, are you?

3 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 12:24:50pm

Frankly, it seems silly to me to ban a certain article of clothing because you don’t like what it represents. Honestly, this law is in the same spirit of Islamic societies that ban women wearing jeans or skirts. It’s just another extreme.

4 rosiee  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 12:58:43pm

“youths” lol
what does their demographic have to do with anything?
I’m sure there are old men there too.
It’s like the press wants to write this off as the dalliances of a frustrated young boy.

5 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 2:13:08pm

re: #2 JeffFX

You’re not clear on who the bigots are in this situation, are you?

Oh, I’m clear. The bigots are the rioters. Most of the women who wear veils in those projects are forced to do so by violent social pressure.

Also note that the headscarf is not banned. What is banned are the faced-covering niquab and the full body burqa. Given the realities in France, I believe the ban of those two face coverings is needed. It is not needed in the US or Canada and I would not support its introduction here.

6 elizajane  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 2:30:00pm

re: #3 HappyWarrior

Frankly, it seems silly to me to ban a certain article of clothing because you don’t like what it represents. Honestly, this law is in the same spirit of Islamic societies that ban women wearing jeans or skirts. It’s just another extreme.

Have to disagree here. Headscarves are one thing, but a garment that fully covers the face except for the eyes is entirely different. How much time have you spent in public around women dressed that way? It’s dehumanizing, anti-social, and alienating in every sense of the word. I completely agree that it should be banned, kind of along the lines of banning female genital mutilation except that the burqa affects both the woman wearing it and those around her, all the time.

Speaking as a western woman, I feel highly unsettled any time I’m around fully-veiled women, and in this case it is actually not because of culturally-constructed racism. It’s because I see a woman who is always being hidden from the world, a woman who is defined as a dirty secret within public life, a woman whose visibility is marked as socially unbearable. And those are, to my mind, terrible things.

7 cinesimon  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 4:03:08pm

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

“given the realities in France”
Jeepers. This is such a standard right wing claptrap. Yeah, you really do know all about “the realities”. Same with Iraq. Same with schools in America. Same with the debt and deficit. Same with voter fraud.
If you want to get something authoritarian done, then hey! Justify it by claiming some (brave, non-PC, freedom truthiness)reality that came straight out of your ass. Or the ass of a white supremacist political movement. Because it’s what you want to hear. Therefore it’s reality.
And yeah - “pound the bigots down” - such a peaceful, loving little phrase!
I’m sure you really do think that you know all about Islam and women. Being that you’re a western right winger and all, who consistently denigrates Arabs as a whole, it make total sense that you know a people you’ve never met better than they themselves do.
If you want bigots to be pounded, you peace-lover you - you’re rather asking for yourself to be beaten down.

The only ‘reality’, is that it was a political stunt pulled by a right wing government loosing popularity. Look for victims to demonize. Pretend you now all about that community. Claim you’re really saving the freedoms of the community you’re targeting.
Wash, rinse, repeat.

8 cinesimon  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 4:13:11pm

re: #6 elizajane

I agree with everything you say - but to make a law bout it, especially in the climate it was done, is nothing more than looking for a way to target Muslims. The reality is, the Burqa ban was an excuse, not the real reason at all.
Those who have any knowledge of French politics are well aware of that.
Same with the attempted banning of Travelers, better known culturally as Gypsies.
It was all about a flailing right wing government. Give the people a group to hate other than you, and you poll numbers go up.

And the ‘secular’ excuse is plain bizarre. It’s supposed to be a secular government, not a secular society. Ban Burqas in government buildings, sure. But in all of society? Talk about a slippery slope. How anyone can not see this for what it is, especially given the context, is beyond me.

9 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 4:44:05pm

re: #6 elizajane

Have to disagree here. Headscarves are one thing, but a garment that fully covers the face except for the eyes is entirely different. How much time have you spent in public around women dressed that way? It’s dehumanizing, anti-social, and alienating in every sense of the word. I completely agree that it should be banned, kind of along the lines of banning female genital mutilation except that the burqa affects both the woman wearing it and those around her, all the time.

Speaking as a western woman, I feel highly unsettled any time I’m around fully-veiled women, and in this case it is actually not because of culturally-constructed racism. It’s because I see a woman who is always being hidden from the world, a woman who is defined as a dirty secret within public life, a woman whose visibility is marked as socially unbearable. And those are, to my mind, terrible things.

How much time have you spent in public around women dressed that way? I admit I still find it somewhat unsettling, but much less so than I used to as see it on a regular basis here in north Jersey.

Have you ever spoken to any of the veiled women you’ve seen to ask them why they wear it and how they feel about it? I’m guessing the answer is “no”, based on your comments.

Look, I’m not going to say there aren’t women who are pressured into wearing it because I know there are, just as I know there are some societies where it’s used to oppress women. I’ve spoken to countless women in America who cover their faces, and the vast majority do it because they want to (the exception being some Saudi immigrants who do it because it’s expected of them and is what they’re comfortable with).

That said, the reason(s) why a woman living in the West would feel the need or desire to cover her face is a whole other subject.

As for the law, I think it sucks because it’s still basically a bunch of men dictating to a woman what she can or cannot wear.

10 rosiee  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 4:53:41pm

re: #9 CuriousLurker

Societies decide what is normal and acceptable, it isn’t “men dictating.” Cultural norms are not dictates. France’s post-revolutionary culture has always been Liberté, égalité, fraternité whether you like it or not. Though I think if France was truly concerned with the plight of a forcibly veiled women they should instead of banning it, set up programs to help women who decide to run-away, or something. Of course they are not, they are interested in maintaining a supposed Frenchness. Though the methods, like the pork-and-wine parties, are Robespierre-ian, distasteful and hypocritical.

Le epic downvote crew

11 electrotek  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 4:54:22pm

Seems like the vast majority of Muslim women who wear the niqab do so because of their apparent hatred of Western culture and to give a middle finger to the West. If they want to wear such backward customs, why don’t they move to a Muslim country instead? Is it no surprise that majority of female Muslims who support extremism and Salafism are always veiled women? These women also change their names to more Arabic ones and I’ve even seen Pakistani women adopting this because they are obsessed with being more Arab than being proud of their own culture.

12 electrotek  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 4:58:42pm

Youtube Video

Given how these veiled women express their hatred of the West yet not putting their money where their mouth is and make hijrah to a Muslim country, is there any surprise why no one wants the presence of niqabis in the West? They hold a serious contempt towards the West and do we need to wonder why Muslims are disliked in the West? These same hypocrites support forced veiling policies of Saudi Arabia and demand women to be fully veiled so why are they calling foul if the French want to enforce something that isn’t of their liking?

13 rosiee  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:07:22pm

re: #7 cinesimon

Francois Hollande’s government is socialist, not right-wing.

14 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:13:30pm

re: #10 rosiee

Societies decide what is normal and acceptable, it isn’t “men dictating.” Cultural norms are not dictates. France’s post-revolutionary culture has always been Liberté, égalité, fraternité whether you like it or not.

So then you’re cool with the Polish ban on ritual slaughter and the original German circumcision ban (effectively criminalizing it) since those things were based on a combination of culture & medicine/science, right? And whether or not those things reeked of past acts of anti-Semitism is beside the point—you’d simply accept it and smile, right?

15 rosiee  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:17:10pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Of course not and I do not support a ban on clothing, except maybe in places where an identity must be insured like a courtroom like here in Canada. Also, interestingly, I didn’t see Polish or German Jews (or Muslims) burning cars to protest, in Sweden Jews and Muslims joined together and lobbied the government in a civilized fashion and had their ban reneged.

16 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:21:35pm

re: #15 rosiee

Of course not and I do not support a ban on clothing, except maybe in places where an identity must be insured like a court-room like here in Canada.

Amazing. You just defended it, five comments ago:

#10 Societies decide what is normal and acceptable, it isn’t “men dictating.” Cultural norms are not dictates. France’s post-revolutionary culture has always been Liberté, égalité, fraternité whether you like it or not.

17 rosiee  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:27:03pm

re: #16 CuriousLurker

How is that a defence it is a slight at the hypocrisy of said national motto. Napoleon and his legions sallied around Europe shoving modernity down peoples throats is an example of this mentality.

18 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:34:41pm

re: #17 rosiee

How is that a defence it is a slight at the hypocrisy of said national motto. Napoleon and his legions sallied around Europe shoving modernity down peoples throats is an example of this mentality.

Well I guess you forgot your sarc tag then, huh? I see you’ve changed your responses to both your #10 and #15 now and also included a dig at VB & myself:

Le epic downvote crew

Lame.

19 rosiee  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:38:23pm

re: #18 CuriousLurker

You digged first!

20 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:43:57pm

re: #19 rosiee

You digged first!

Oh, FFS—I didn’t take dig at you, I disagreed with you, down-dinged your comment, and stated why. I didn’t accuse you of being part of some imaginary “crew”.

21 rosiee  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:46:28pm

re: #20 CuriousLurker

CL you know I love you. I like how you set me straight.

22 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:49:38pm

re: #21 rosiee

CL you know I love you. I like how you set me straight.

Heh, okay, let’s call a truce for now. I’m really not in the mood to argue thise evening anyway.

23 rosiee  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 5:52:51pm
24 Gus  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 6:22:45pm

I don’t agree with the veil ban. I believe that veils should be removed when requested by law enforcement. I also don’t believe in the riots. My two cents.

25 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 6:30:50pm

re: #12 electrotek

The person who posted the video you’re recommending also posted this:

Get these Muslims out of our counties. Close all mosques, bring our army’s back and deport all Muslims. we have to do this otherwise one day we all will be Muslim or killed.

26 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 7:18:43pm

re: #6 elizajane

Have to disagree here. Headscarves are one thing, but a garment that fully covers the face except for the eyes is entirely different. How much time have you spent in public around women dressed that way? It’s dehumanizing, anti-social, and alienating in every sense of the word. I completely agree that it should be banned, kind of along the lines of banning female genital mutilation except that the burqa affects both the woman wearing it and those around her, all the time.

Speaking as a western woman, I feel highly unsettled any time I’m around fully-veiled women, and in this case it is actually not because of culturally-constructed racism. It’s because I see a woman who is always being hidden from the world, a woman who is defined as a dirty secret within public life, a woman whose visibility is marked as socially unbearable. And those are, to my mind, terrible things.

Fair enough but I don’t like the idea of banning certain clothing. It just sets a bad precedent.

27 bratwurst  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 8:27:56pm

re: #11 electrotek

Seems like the vast majority of Muslim women who wear the niqab do so because of their apparent hatred of Western culture and to give a middle finger to the West.

Seems like you are an imbecile.

28 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 8:33:56pm

Anybody got a fashion statement for nuns?

29 electrotek  Sun, Jul 21, 2013 9:37:45pm

re: #25 Charles Johnson

Charles, I’m not recommending the moron that uploaded the video. I simply saw the video posted on a Pakistani site condemning these idiot protestors and reinforcing my point that women who don the full veil regard women who don’t cover themselves as naked whores. They are the most judgmental yet here they are crying about being judged by the majority in their adopted nation?

Majority of Muslim women don’t wear a niqab and as a Muslim I’m fine with a hijab even though none of the females in my family even cover their heads. Why do these dogmatic buffoons need to out-Muslim one another? Do they really think they will go to heaven quicker than us munafiqs in their eyes?

30 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 12:20:40am

re: #29 electrotek

If you actually are Muslim—I have my doubts—your clear hatred for niqabis and ridiculous extrapolations about what they all supposedly think lead me to believe you’re Shia and have an axe to grind. Confirmation bias.

BTW, you come across every bit as hateful as the people in the video that you’re railing against. It’s a pity that you have four eyes for others and are blind to yourself.

Below are three women speaking for themselves. One doesn’t cover, the other wears hijab, and the other wears niqab. They’re not cartoon characters. There is no Muslim “hive mind” that renders differences of opinion/practice unacceptable. They are individuals with their own opinions and they manage to discuss their differences with eloquence & civility. Imagine that.

Youtube Video

31 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 4:49:21am

re: #28 Decatur Deb

Anybody got a fashion statement for nuns?

I am old enough to remember that when you saw a woman wearing all black, and a scarf covering her hair, she was a Roman Catholic nun.

Then in the 1970’s nuns kicked the habit and started wearing brown polyester pantsuits, they went from being scary to lame.

32 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 4:51:32am

Zedushka told me that when he was a kid, nuns in black habits scared the living shit out of him. His mother, who grew up in Poland, told him that they would kidnap Jewish kids (kind of a reverse blood libel).—this legend probably based on the Mortara case.

33 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 4:58:05am

re: #32 Vicious Babushka

….this legend probably based on the Mortara case.

E gad! O_o

34 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 5:12:27am

re: #32 Vicious Babushka

Zedushka told me that when he was a kid, nuns in black habits scared the living shit out of him. His mother, who grew up in Poland, told him that they would kidnap Jewish kids (kind of a reverse blood libel).—this legend probably based on the Mortara case.

Place that in the perspective of time and place. In that era there were still living castrati, voce bianchi. The Mortara story shows the tangle when religious and civil power overlap. (Also recalls how an Elian Gonzales story keyholes into an international political narrative.)

35 kerFuFFler  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 9:12:18am

re: #6 elizajane

Thanks for replying to HappyWarrior——-you saved me the bother and expressed it better than I might have. Yup, it is dehumanizing to be placed under a bag to isolate you from……everything!

36 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 9:20:41am

re: #2 JeffFX

You’re not clear on who the bigots are in this situation, are you?

Yes, it’s the assholes who treat their women like chattel and force them to cover from head to toe because of their own insecurity.

Religious bigotry isn’t more acceptable just because it’s from “another culture”.

A headscarf is one thing; this level of fundamentalist oppression of women is ridiculous.

37 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 10:54:51am

Freedom! Women’s rights! Equal protection! Unless you’re a Muslim woman and make us uncomfortable by choosing to wear the niqab… //

38 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 11:46:12am

re: #37 CuriousLurker

Freedom! Women’s rights! Equal protection! Unless you’re a Muslim woman and make us uncomfortable by choosing to wear the niqab… //

Whether one chooses to be stupid is one’s own choice. Doesn’t change the fact that wearing a niqab is stupidity entrenched in male-dominated religious mythology-based bigotry.

39 kerFuFFler  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 1:25:59pm

re: #38 SidewaysQuark

Whether one chooses to be stupid is one’s own choice.

At what point is a brainwashed person not really making their own choices anymore?

The idea that women HAVE choices is not necessarily encouraged in the most extremely fundamentalist households (of many religions). A Jordanian woman I met in university family housing had very little power within her family. One day her 8 year old son kicked over the sand castle his 5 year old sister had made in the communal sandbox. (The mom was in her apartment….) When the little girl cried, he started to kick her rather savagely, so all the moms present stood up and called out for him to stop. I escorted the boy back to the front door where I explained the situation to his mom. She looked helplessly about and told me that the boy was responsible for keeping her daughter “in line”. I told her that she needed to keep her son from physically assaulting his siblings. She told me that it was not her place to tell her son (a fricking 8 year old!) how to manage his sisters. I was stunned! This woman did cover her head, though not her face, and I did not expect such “old-fashioned” (backwards…..) attitudes in a family affiliated with the U. I took a step back, shook my head and said that then her husband needed to explain to the boy the unacceptability of such brutishness. Furthermore, if we saw him acting like that again the other mothers might feel like we had to call child protective services.

Apparently the warning worked——-at least outside their apartment. But seriously, this woman came from a household that was modern enough to let her show her face yet still treated HER like a zero, ranking beneath her 8 year old. How much worse might it be in many households where the strictest dress codes are enforced?

The memory of the girls who burned to death in Saudi Arabia because they were not sufficiently clothed to flee a burning building haunts me and perhaps that is why I am likely to side with people who want to ban it even though “it is just a piece of clothing….” The fact that the men who kept those young Saudi girls from escaping awful and unnecessary deaths in a fire were unable to understand that same idea———that it is just a piece of clothing——-shows what a dangerous mindset it reveals. That wearing such an item could possibly be more important than saving lives is a superstition that must be done away with. Religious freedom is not absolute. We do not allow child sacrifice and we should not tolerate treating women as nonentities whatever the religion, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or what have you! When you treat women as nonentities to begin with it is easier to kill them. I think banning the niqab will ultimately save lives.

40 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 1:57:04pm

re: #39 kerFuFFler

At what point is a brainwashed person not really making their own choices anymore?

[…]

Apparently the warning worked——-at least outside their apartment. But seriously, this woman came from a household that was modern enough to let her show her face yet still treated HER like a zero, ranking beneath her 8 year old. How much worse might it be in many households where the strictest dress codes are enforced?

Exactly what sort of legislation do you believe would have helped this woman?

The memory of the girls who burned to death in Saudi Arabia because they were not sufficiently clothed to flee a burning building haunts me and perhaps that is why I am likely to side with people who want to ban it even though “it is just a piece of clothing….” The fact that the men who kept those young Saudi girls from escaping awful and unnecessary deaths in a fire were unable to understand that same idea———that it is just a piece of clothing——-shows what a dangerous mindset it reveals. That wearing such an item could possibly be more important than saving lives is a superstition that must be done away with. Religious freedom is not absolute. We do not allow child sacrifice and we should not tolerate treating women as nonentities whatever the religion, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or what have you! When you treat women as nonentities to begin with it is easier to kill them. I think banning the niqab will ultimately save lives.

Banning wearing the niqab in public won’t stop misogyny or religious extremism, in fact I would assert that for the women who are forced to wear it, all it would do is even further oppress them because they wouldn’t be allowed out of the house without it. As for Saudi Arabia, no amount of laws we pass in the West are going to change things for girls & women there, and we need their oil too badly to put any serious pressure on them to change things.

41 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 22, 2013 10:40:16pm

Lots of Muslim hate.
Fascinating.


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