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1 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 10:53:55am

Well speaking for myself I’m having that feeling you get when a friend you respect makes a serious mistake. This is bad for Palestinians because a job building a house is nice for a time, but then that house becomes unavailable for you or your people forever, and it’s on your land… Or at the least highly disputed land, well this is all too likely to be exactly the kind of real estate boom we don’t want. The literal boom kind.

2 rosiee  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 10:56:59am

re: #1 Political Atheist

Seems to me it’s rich white people who have a problem with this, not actual Palestinians. Why would they be building the houses? And again I believe this is targeted propaganda to shift attention from bigger issues in the region and focus blame on the Jews. Political Atheist neglects to comment on the reddit thread though because people like to pretend the opposition to Israeli settlements is based on justice for Palestinians and not just hate for Jews.

3 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 11:11:15am

re: #2 rosiee

Well methinks you should not go there. Not just “rich white” people. As individuals the Palestinians will take the work they can get for their families. Their economy is so cash poor. Asking Israel to stop those housing projects has been part of US policy for quite some time now. Obama ain’t no “rich white guy”. We have that policy at the behest of the Palestinians themselves to carve out some common ground to make peace on.

4 rosiee  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 11:15:05am

re: #3 Political Atheist

America’s policy in Israel sucks, for they try and walk a middle line, They refuse to declare Jerusalem the capital yet support Israel in most other ways. Just ends up getting them shit from both sides.

The average Palestinian is far more of a pragmatist than their leaders or those who push for things like BDS. If they felt so strongly about this why don’t they vote with their feet and refuse to work for Israelis? You are belittling them.

5 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 11:28:31am

re: #4 rosiee

I’m not belittling anyone. I’m respecting an individuals need to feed a family. And I feel pretty sure one could find many Palestinians who will refuse that work in favor of about anything else.

6 rosiee  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 11:33:50am

re: #5 Political Atheist

So maybe Palestinians should work on their own country and build businesses and not rely on working on Israeli construction sites. Too bad that keeping the population poor and angry is part of the plan to destabilize.

7 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 11:39:58am

re: #6 rosiee

So maybe Palestinians should work on their own country and build businesses and not rely on working on Israeli construction sites. Too bad that keeping the population poor and angry is part of the plan to destabilize.

As if they don’t?! How big a percentage of the Palestinian workforce is working on those settlements? AFAIK the Palestinian militants and extremists are the ones keeping them poor at least by half, likely 90%. Right back to Yasser Arafat who stole so much of the Palestinian people money.

8 rosiee  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 11:54:17am

re: #7 Political Atheist

Again, any opinion on the comments on Reddit, which was my original intention with this page.

9 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 11:59:07am

re: #8 rosiee
Okay-
Bullshit x2-

1 From what I’ve read Israel has no intention of allowing a Palestinian state to exist….
2 They want to do to the Palestinians what the US did to the Indians.

Horrible hateful lies.

10 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 12:10:21pm

re: #8 rosiee

Again, any opinion on the comments on Reddit, which was my original intention with this page.

I truly agree with this guy.

So this post is obviously already a battleground, damn.

All I can say is that I approach the situation with no bias, I’m not Arab or Jewish, and I’m only interested in a real peace deal. And from that perspective, this doesn’t seem like it will do anything but complicate talks further as settlements have done before.

11 blueraven  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 12:19:11pm

re: #6 rosiee

So maybe Palestinians should work on their own country and build businesses and not rely on working on Israeli construction sites. Too bad that keeping the population poor and angry is part of the plan to destabilize.

What country? Palestine is a country?

12 rosiee  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 12:28:53pm

re: #11 blueraven

I guess it is, it’s a nation at least. And it would have been a country in 1948 if their fellow Arabs had not refused with rifle and tank to the return of Jews to the Ummah.

13 rosiee  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 12:31:08pm

re: #11 blueraven

I do too, but unfortunately that is lost in a sea of passionate Israel bating.

14 blueraven  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 12:33:54pm

Funny, we (USA, Israel) have been trying to prevent a Palestine state recognition by the UN for years

John Kerry was called out for referring to Palestine as a country…but if you say so.

15 Political Atheist  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 12:44:43pm

re: #14 blueraven

Isn’t that because we are rightly insisting on a mutual recognition i.e. not before the Palestinians and Arab allies agree to Israels existence as a country?

16 blueraven  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 12:50:19pm

re: #15 Political Atheist

Isn’t that because we are rightly insisting on a mutual recognition i.e. not before the Palestinians and Arab allies agree to Israels existence as a country?

There are multiple reason I am sure. I am just surprised rosiee is referring to Palestine as a country. Not very PC of him. He doesn’t really want to talk about the issue of settlements in an intelligent manner. He just wants us to be outraged by Reddit comments. Really? Reddit!

Just playing his game here.

17 rosiee  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 1:10:18pm

re: #16 blueraven

If LGF can scoff at the racist comments at Beck’s site (which has far, far less traffic than reddit) we can examine reddit’s commenters.
The fact is that you just don’t like the fact that this is on the front page of such a heavily trafficked site brought to the attention of the lizards.

18 blueraven  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 2:11:26pm

re: #17 rosiee

If LGF can scoff at the racist comments at Beck’s site (which has far, far less traffic than reddit) we can examine reddit’s commenters.
The fact is that you just don’t like the fact that this is on the front page of such a heavily trafficked site brought to the attention of the lizards.

Reddit is one of the biggest troll sites on the internet. It is not the viewpoint of one man or group like Beck’s site. And the fact is you have no idea about what I like or don’t like. The fact is I don’t read reddit at all. So kindly, just fuck off.

19 mr.JA  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 2:38:30pm

Really, a thread about what other people said on the internet. Really, who gives a fuck.
Ontopic, I think building settlements should stop. Palastinians are denied many possibilities because there are very strong import restrictions - I’ve been to the West-Bank, visited Hebron and spoken to a lot of people living there (mostly older - 50+). If you see how the settlements fragment the area, and how control posts control movement of goods and people there, it is easy to understand how that completely stifles the economy.
One way to make money is being a taxi driver. Our taxi drivers drove us (group of 6) from Bethlehem to Hebron, and back. In Hebron, the window of one of the parked taxi’s was smashed (city rivalry or something). The taxi driver was crying and despaired, because getting a new window would take at least 2 months, if he managed to get a replacement at all - all parts have to be imported, which is subject to very strict Israeli scrutiny…
I’m not saying only one party is guilty here, but for sure does one party make the life of the other as difficult as possible.
FWIW, I absolutely loved Israel and its people, and fully their right to be in the region - but I also would like to see that especially the people in the West-Bank get some land back (especially good agricultural areas, and some places with good stone for house building) so that they can work on their own economy again.

20 Malcolman  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 3:24:25pm

re: #2 rosiee

because people like to pretend the opposition to Israeli settlements is based on justice for Palestinians and not just hate for Jews.

What world do you live in? People don’t like settlements because they are acts colonisation.

21 hellosnackbar  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 10:40:06pm

I’m wondering if this settlements issue is a politicl blow to remind the Palis that any future deal will be tough(after the release of convicted Palicriminals)

22 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 2:24:29am

re: #21 hellosnackbar

What’s a Palicriminal?

23 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 7:32:21am

re: #18 blueraven

President Obama and Bill Gates did AMA (ask me anything) on a troll site did they?
Just admit it you are a dinosaur that knows nothing about where the internet has gone and is going, and about how that internet is shaping people’s minds.

24 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 7:36:11am

re: #20 Malcolman

Not your world of black and white. Israelis are pushing out for security, obviously you don’t live in fear of being hacked apart at night by a brainwashed 18 year old in your apartment like most Israelis do.

25 mechanic  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 7:54:49am

From Haaratz today:
Suddenly we are short of space here in Israel, which has become full to capacity and needs lebensraum. Every cultured person knows that this is a despicable German concept, banned from use because of the associations it brings up. Still, people are starting to use it, if not outright then with a clear implication: We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country.”
Hell of a double standard. Why do you think people are bitching?

26 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 9:25:25am

re: #25 mechanic

And this is why no one I respect takes Haaretz seriously. Their Israeli circulation has plummeted and they now make a living off of anti-Israeli sentiment overseas.

27 mechanic  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 9:32:59am

re: #26 rosiee

From Wikipedia:
Despite its relatively low circulation in Israel, Haaretz is considered Israel’s most influential daily newspaper”
You can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear rosiee.

28 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 10:15:37am

re: #27 mechanic

You’ve managed to at the same time to miss what I was saying totally and at the same time bolster my argument.

29 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:05:28am

israel took over the west bank and gaza in 1967

as of today, 46 years later, there is no country there and the palestinians who live there are persons with no country or citizenship, and therefore no self determination

to an american way of thinking this is unacceptable and no explanations can excuse it

30 mechanic  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:06:19am

re: #28 rosiee

And you won’t address mine because it is a more important point than mere paper circulation. The words are “most influential daily newspaper.” The real policy is lebensraum and the effect is total irony.

31 William Burns  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:07:36am

re: #6 rosiee

They don’t have their own country, that’s kind of the point.

32 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:21:41am

re: #29 engineer cat

Yet no one blames the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians for not giving the Palestinians citizenship because there is a tacit understanding that these downtrodden people are to be used as a political tool against the “Zionist Entity”

33 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:25:04am

re: #32 rosiee

Yet no one blames the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians for not giving the Palestinians citizenship because there is a tacit understanding that these downtrodden people are to be used as a political tool against the “Zionist Entity”

the west bank isn’t under control of the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians

IT HAS BEEN UNDER CONTROL OF ISRAEL SINCE 1967

34 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:26:55am

re: #32 rosiee

Yet no one blames the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians for not giving the Palestinians citizenship because there is a tacit understanding that these downtrodden people are to be used as a political tool against the “Zionist Entity”

I blame them.

re: #33 engineer cat

the west bank isn’t under control of the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians

IT HAS BEEN UNDER CONTROL OF ISRAEL SINCE 1967

There’s plenty of land that used to be lived on by the group known as the Palestinians in Syria and Jordan. Additionally, they could accept Palestinians who are born in their countries as citizens. That’s one of the biggest problems.

35 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:48:02am

re: #34 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Indeed, the Palestinians/Palestine was only the colloquial name, the actual name was South Syria, or Syria-Palestina, the Turks used the old Roman-Hellenistic nomenclature. Jordan was considered part of it.

36 ProTARDISLiberal  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:52:56am

re: #34 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

One tiny problem.

All those nations are unstable.

Jordan is a three legged stool, with population being made up of roughly equal amounts Bedouin Descendants, Circassians, and Palestinians. Adding more Palestinians would upset the apple cart.

Lebanon is much the same way, except with Maronite Christians, Shias, and Sunnis. Syria is an unstable and collapsed mess, and has been for much of the 20th Century.

This is one thing that ticks me off. A total lack of awareness as to the nature of the nations around Israel, especially in regards to Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.

In addition, with incidents like Deir Yassin, Al-Dawayima, and the purging of Ramla and Lydda put me in the independent column on this conflict.

And rosiee is an Anti-Arab and Anti-Muslim bigot.

37 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 11:57:55am

re: #36 ProTARDISLiberal

I’m sorry, what’s your rationale behind ‘adding more Palestinians to Jordan would upset everything’?

38 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:17:11pm

re: #36 ProTARDISLiberal

You chide me for being a bigot when your knowledge of the area is bizarre and incorrect. Palestinians are not a homogenous group they are made up of all the people you’ve listed and more including Maronites and Druze and others, Palestinian wasn’t a nation before 1948, it was just everyone living in the area called Palestine, the Jews there were Palestinians for instance. But after the Mandate ended the Palestinians were those that were not the Israelis so began their Nationhood. The Jordanian problem vis a vis the Palestinians is the same as the Kuwaiti or Lebanese, the Palestinian predilection for extremism and conflict does indeed destabilize, but, you neglect to inform that the leadership of Jordan is not Palestinian, nor even Jordanian, they are an imported Saudi royal family, the Hashemites, who have to contend with the fact that indeed the Palestinians are the locals and would in any world with justice have been given citizenship long ago, but anti-Zionist agendas have spurned them, and Palestinians now live peaceful lives far away from the conflict in places like Guatemala, where my friend’s family are from, my Palestinian friend, who unlike you, knows me, and knows I’m far from a bigot and even though we do sometimes yell at each other both him and I, unlike you ProTARD, seek an end to the conflict without hurling hateful epithets.

39 ProTARDISLiberal  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:21:55pm

re: #37 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

1/3rd of Jordan is Bedouin descendants

1/3rd is Circassian

and the last 1/3rd are Palestinian refugees that have been accepted as citizens (Shocking people rag on Jordan, which has already done as you said.)

Throwing an additional 1-3 million Palestinians will completely marginalize the current other 2/3rds. So, those people in Jordan deserve to lose their voice to force more Palestinians into an already very strained nation, with no resources whatsoever. Almost none of Jordan is arable (Exactly 2.92%, to be precise). They are already supporting thousands, maybe over a million refugees, both Palestinian and Syrian. Jordan can’t take more people. And what infuriates me is that Jordan already cooperates with Israel to a huge degree. They are their own country. You don’t get to force them to take in up to half of their current population.

This is why I can’t side with Israel. A total lack of understanding among its supporters about the politics and issues in the surrounding nations, and how forcing millions of people into them with no support whatsoever would cause a disaster. Especially in Lebanon and Jordan.

40 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:28:51pm

re: #39 ProTARDISLiberal

Most of Israel was unairable land as well, swamps, if only governments in the area could be working on agriculture instead of petty disagreements over housing blocks we could see peace. And the reason you don’t side with Israel is over the ethnic cleansings of the 40’s then do you still hold the Arabs responsible for their attacks and barbarism? Nothing Israel did was in a vacuum, but people like you, who claim neutrality, forget that Israel has the most U.N. resolutions against it, for what reason? People like you have no balls to stand up the world’s bias, claiming neutrality.

By the way, Israel supporters on the whole tend to have a far more subtle knowledge of the situation and be far more informed than the bunch who would see Israel as some colonial state bent on conquest. The best Arab studies programs are indeed in Hebrew U.

41 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:32:05pm

re: #39 ProTARDISLiberal

I’m mostly talking about refugees who are already living in Jordan being taken in. How much land is arable isn’t relevant, this isn’t fucking 1444, you don’t have to be food-self-sufficient.

Palestinians are actually doing more entrepreneurship and growing more wealth in Jordan now than any other group, mostly thanks to the QIZ. You seem to be arguing that these groups all have competing interests; they don’t. If the state depends on a precarious balance of three ethnic groups who can’t work with each other except when co-equal, the nation is inevitably doomed by demographics anyway.

And what infuriates me is that Jordan already cooperates with Israel to a huge degree. They are their own country. You don’t get to force them to take in up to half of their current population.

Hey, I’m not forcing anyone to do anything, but you go ahead and fuck that strawman up! Yeah! Can’t force Jordan to do shit, nossir!

This is why I can’t side with Israel. A total lack of understanding among its supporters about the politics and issues in the surrounding nations, and how forcing millions of people into them with no support whatsoever would cause a disaster. Especially in Lebanon and Jordan.

No point in talking to you if you’re going to be this abrasive and arrogant. I wasn’t talking about moving all Palestinians out of Palestine and Israel. I’m just talking about people who are born in Syria and Jordan being given citizenship there. Obviously, Syrian citizenship does nobody any fucking good right now.

42 ProTARDISLiberal  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:32:31pm

re: #38 rosiee

Near nobody lived in Jordan until the mid 1800’s when the Russians forced millions of Muslims in the Caucaucus region out of their home, which Muslim-hating bigot like you must love. The Jordanian king is the same. The Hashemites ruled the Hijaz for over a thousand years, before the Saudi fanatics forced them out. Just like the Circassians I mentioned. You probably want all those inconvienent people gone too.

And, Obdicut, for all the time, considering how often you rag on me for being insulting, I would love to see your rebuke to Rosiee for doing as I admit I have done often in the past.

re: #40 rosiee

Israel never accepted responsibility for one of those attacks. They have not even released the report for the Al-Dawayima massacre. Or the assassination of Count Bernadotte. Or the Lillehammer affair either. They paid money but refused to say they screwed up.

I won’t support Israel, Hamas, or Fatah. None of them.

43 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:33:32pm

re: #40 rosiee

every other bad thing that has ever happened to the palestinians doesn’t absolve the state of israel from the responsibility of of having had millions of people under its control for nearly 50 years who have no citizenship

it’s high time to stop changing the subject, blaming others, and any other excuses for not fixing this

44 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:38:08pm

re: #43 engineer cat

No one in the region has acted more responsibly, nor with more hatred piled upon them, than the Israelis. Responsibility should be accepted of course, but Israel knows that if it accepts responsibility (I would presume this is why) they would be dragged in front of a kangaroo court full of haters. So they accept responsibility but only tacitly.

re: #42 ProTARDISLiberal

You know, the more you call me a Muslim-hater doesn’t make it true, however much you want it to be, as then you can just forget about me and ship me off to the PC gulag.

45 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:40:40pm

re: #43 engineer cat

There isn’t any apparent fix in the world the way it is right now. To fix it other things have to be fixed first. The general political state of the Middle East needs to be addressed, and Israel/Palestine can’t really be resolved in a vacuum. That doesn’t mean it can’t be improved, and I think that Israel has completely let itself become absolutely cynical about the process. I do not have high hopes for the peace conference.

46 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:40:49pm

re: #42 ProTARDISLiberal

The fact you even lump them together like that says so much about your “knowlege.” Your pseudo-neutrality is just a guise for your wish for Israel to succumb and disappear, so you, and your fellow “neutrals” and sigh and begone with the whole “Israel Problem”

47 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:43:56pm

re: #46 rosiee

Don’t accuse other people of wanting Israel to disappear, it makes you look silly. Nothing he said amounts to that.

48 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:44:05pm

re: #45 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Israelis are utterly cynical, that’s true, there are so many problems inside the country, for instance the way Sabras act towards the Russians and Ethiopians (which has kinda been fixed since the 2000’s and the intifada united people). There are so many internal issues. I just hope that Yair Lapid will be elected, and with him a less chauvinistic approach to the whole peace process.

49 ProTARDISLiberal  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:44:22pm

re: #46 rosiee

Oh, I am completely neutral. This is what we call a list.

And you have never said a positive thing about Muslims. It’s all insults and attacks. What you are doing is proving the ideas about conservatives that formed after the 22/7 Attacks in Norway true.

50 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:45:48pm

re: #42 ProTARDISLiberal

Rosie isn’t doing what you’ve done in the past. You’ve called for the indiscriminate bombing of cities, killing thousands of civilians over the issue of the fucking Falklands. You advocated war crimes.

51 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:47:08pm

re: #49 ProTARDISLiberal

I have said many positive things, I’m not a bigot. I don’t wanna put words in her mouth but I think CL would vouch for me.

52 ProTARDISLiberal  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:47:18pm

re: #50 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

And I have admitted to being wrong then.

53 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:48:04pm

re: #52 ProTARDISLiberal

Okay. Rosiee isn’t advocating war crimes. So don’t claim she’s doing what you’ve done, please.

54 rosiee  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:48:50pm

re: #53 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

re: #52 ProTARDISLiberal

Honestly this whole Israel-Palestine thing really riles up a weird chord in humanity.

55 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 12:50:49pm

re: #51 rosiee

You should probably avoid phrases like ‘barbarism’ when talking about Arabs, even though in context it’s understandable that you’re just saying that along with Israeli ethnic cleansing there was Arab ethnic cleansing.

56 CuriousLurker  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 2:02:48pm

re: #51 rosiee

I have said many positive things, I’m not a bigot. I don’t wanna put words in her mouth but I think CL would vouch for me.

If you hadn’t essentially implied (in your #2) that Political Atheist is an anti-Semite because he commented on the houses being built instead of the Reddit thread, then I might have been willing to vouch for you.

Political Atheist neglects to comment on the reddit thread though because people like to pretend the opposition to Israeli settlements is based on justice for Palestinians and not just hate for Jews.

Our political differences & geographical distance from each other aside, I consider him a friend and a decent guy who always tries to be even-handed and is unfailingly civil. You, not so much. (Though I am inclined—perhaps foolishly—to chalk up a good deal of the stuff you say to your youth and lack of experience.)

You opened this Pandora’s box knowing what an emotionally volatile subject it is for many people, so you get to deal with the shit storm it’s causing on your own.

57 Political Atheist  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 2:45:46pm

re: #2 rosiee

Political Atheist neglects to comment on the reddit thread though because people like to pretend the opposition to Israeli settlements is based on justice for Palestinians and not just hate for Jews.

I should respond, I erred in letting this go. I did not initially comment on the reddit thread because i do not hold Reddit in high regard, it’s a freaking sewer way too often for my time. When I did take a look my impression was confirmed. Finding good intelligent comments there is too much like finding corn in excrement there.

58 Political Atheist  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 2:46:59pm

re: #56 CuriousLurker

If you hadn’t essentially implied (in your #2) that Political Atheist is an anti-Semite because he commented on the houses being built instead of the Reddit thread, then I might have been willing to vouch for you.

Our political differences & geographical distance from each other aside, I consider him a friend…

Thank you *blush*

59 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 2:52:47pm

re: #57 Political Atheist

I’m sorry that I missed you being abused like that in that post. Rosiee, that’s some stupid-ass shit right there. I’ve never heard a single thing that approached the beginnings of the first inklings of the remotest kind of any sort of racism or even ethnocentrism from PA, whatever disagreements I’ve ever had with him I don’t think he’s got the slightest shred of racist sentiment to him.

60 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 2:53:37pm

And I am, and always have been, against settlement building. It is handing a propaganda victory to the worst elements of Palestinian political society every time it happens.

And so say plenty of Israelis.

61 Political Atheist  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 3:15:44pm

re: #59 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Thanks for that, it’s all good. heh sometimes the people we debate with know us best. And I agree with utterly that the settlements are a huge & unnecessary obstacle to peace.

62 hellosnackbar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:45:11am

Absalomabsalomobdicut,
Israel has just released a mob of Palicriminals some of whom were found guilty of violent murder.
Do you think murder is inexcusable?

63 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 7:02:32am

re: #62 hellosnackbar

I asked you what a Palicriminal is. Are you going to explain?

64 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 9:00:49am

No! If I have to explain it you couldn’t understand it.

65 Jayleia  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 10:45:25am

Palicriminal…a criminal that’s the same backwards as forwards?

I’m going to assume that its a portmanteau of palestinian and criminal…however, I can’t tell whether he’s referring to palestinians that have committed crimes, or if he’s referring to the citizens of palestine as criminals…either way, its a very douchey term to use.

66 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:20:47pm

Israeli leaders, including Netanyahu and Livni both understand that demographics don’t work in Israel’s favor if they want to maintain Israel as a democratic Jewish state. The demographics including the territories would mean that Israelis would be outnumbered by Palestinians within a generation or so.

A 2-state solution is the only way to get to some reasonable accommodation.

Housing is not, and hasn’t been the impediment to peace. Settlements can and have been swapped, evictions have been done, and forcible removing those living there have been done in the past - in Sinai and Gaza, and it could again be done. But the borders can be drawn with accommodations for existing settlements with swaps to maintain territorial integrity for both Israel and the Palestinian state.

The problem, as it has always been, comes down to Jerusalem and the right of return. Right of return presents a demographic nightmare and Palestinians have made that the central pillar of their campaign against Israel for 65 years. Same with demands for Jerusalem, even though Jerusalem’s religious sites are better protected and with better access by all religious groups now under the Israelis than when they were under Arab control from 1948-1967 when Jews weren’t allowed in the Old City (beyond the Green Line separating East and West Jerusalem).

Trying to reinstate the Green Line would cleave East Jerusalem, including the Old City, all the holy sites, and restrict access to the Old City that would never be tolerated by Israelis.

What’s much more likely to happen in Jerusalem is that the Palestinian state would include the Temple Mount but not the Kotel. It might include the Arab Quarter and the points to the East, with border control points along the way, etc.

But the Palestinian terror groups like Hamas, PRCs, Islamic Jihad and the splinter groups are all willing to use any and all slights to carry out attacks of one form or another. Haters have got to hate. Israel responds by going after the terrorists, and the haters hate some more.

I’m not real optimistic about the latest moves to resume talks. Would much prefer that they be backchannels and come to a deal that is then made public than trying something in the public, where every step is scrutinized and pressures come from all sides. Oslo didn’t come from public diplomacy, but from behind the scenes until a formal framework was set up. Abbas has to pick up those pieces, and I don’t think he’s got it in him to get to a deal, let alone the support from within the PA to make a deal stick, even one with favorable terms on Jerusalem or right of return because of the promises that have been made by Abbas (and Arafat before him) and all the Hamas and Fatah/PLO leaders about raising the flag above an undivided Palestine with Israel but a distant memory.

67 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 14, 2013 10:05:44am

re: #65 Jayleia

Palicriminal…a criminal that’s the same backwards as forwards?

I’m going to assume that its a portmanteau of palestinian and criminal…however, I can’t tell whether he’s referring to palestinians that have committed crimes, or if he’s referring to the citizens of palestine as criminals…either way, its a very douchey term to use.

Must concur. In both its formulation and the usage we are seeing here, it seems like yet another derisive term for people of an “enemy ethnicity or ideology”. It has the same ‘feel’ as “feminazis” to my ears: A dumb overly-broad term thrown out by a bigot, and it is telling that the originator of the thread (Rosie) has not defended it, even by updinging.

68 rosiee  Wed, Aug 14, 2013 11:14:21am

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

it’s dumb.

69 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Aug 14, 2013 11:34:55am

As someone who spends several months/year in Israel, I’m not so sure the Palestinians of Samaria and Judea (‘the “west bank”) are all that cash poor compared to their brethren elsewhere.

And construction in Jerusalem isn’t the same as settlements elsewhere in the west bank. For one thing this land was purchased by Jews before Israel’s creation.

haaretz.com

I should add that I’m descended from a grandparent who was born in Gaza and kicked out in 1929. But nobody ever calls me a “refugee” because I’m the wrong religion.


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