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1 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 6:11:25pm

Blue dog Dems are a lot better than Republicans.

But it is difficult to take this article seriously when it includes bilge like “Rather, instead of always starting political debates on the far left, and only moving to the middle during negotiations, Democrats should begin in the middle and challenge Republicans to come to us.”

The Democrats haven’t floated a far left policy proposal for decades.

Instead, the Democrats tend to start with a compromised position and make further concessions to their own conservatives or (worse) to totally intransigent Republicans. The ACA mess was a perfect example.

2 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 6:20:08pm

re: #1 EPR-radar

Um, about that single payer thing that was proposed but died quick? Immigration proposals? Again the far left stuff dies quick but it was there. That Progressive caucus?

3 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 6:48:05pm

Start in the middle. That’s the concept I like most. Start where we probably belong and will wind up anyway and break the habit of horse trading style negotiating in the internet age.

4 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 6:58:27pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

Um, about that single payer thing that was proposed but died quick? Immigration proposals? Again the far left stuff dies quick but it was there. That Progressive caucus?

But the Democrats never even presented single payer to the Republicans as part of negotiations. It died within the Democratic caucus. Incidentally, single payer is hardly a ‘far-left’ idea.

More generally, I am totally uninterested in splitting the difference between a moderate (D) party and an extremist GOP.

5 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 6:59:56pm

re: #3 Political Atheist

Start in the middle. That’s the concept I like most. Start where we probably belong and will wind up anyway and break the habit of horse trading style negotiating in the internet age.

The middle these days is to be found somewhere in the spectrum of opinions within the Democratic party. Compromising with this GOP may be a political necessity at times, but all it does is off-balance things to the right.

6 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 7:24:50pm

re: #5 EPR-radar

The middle these days is to be found somewhere in the spectrum of opinions within the Democratic party. Compromising with this GOP may be a political necessity at times, but all it does is off-balance things to the right.

+1 as it explains the Page from me, as a right leaning indy. Of balance, well that’s where opinions vary.

7 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:14:58pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

Um, about that single payer thing that was proposed but died quick? Immigration proposals? Again the far left stuff dies quick but it was there. That Progressive caucus?

Single payer isn’t at all far-left. It is bog-standard in first-world countries. Immigration— Reagan did amnesty. Also not far-left.

Try again?

8 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:52:55pm

re: #7 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Single payer isn’t at all far-left. It is bog-standard in first-world countries. Immigration— Reagan did amnesty. Also not far-left.

Try again?

re: #7 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

That’s really a matter of opinion on single payer.
Might some of those Blue Dogs agree with me on that? By far left on single payer I mean within our domestic political landscape. This is a congressional caucus not the State Dept. EPR set a long time-decades, right? He makes a good point in that many find the recent years proposals of the Dems as timid and over compromised. But the scale I answer to is decades not recently. Not just from the comment of EPR but the scale of time the Blue Dog statement seemingly refers to.

Oh and about that progressive caucus? I think that illustrates the point well enough. All the details are debatable like all things politics of course. So rather than a “try again” this is a clarification. “try again” seems terribly skeptical about a view that simply leans a bit, rather than the way out there tea party stuff.

9 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 9:09:35pm

re: #7 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

- Reagan did amnesty. Also not far-left.

As if there have not been broader amnesty proposals, say that may not have been bi partisan and not criminalized anything?

Both unlike the Reagan bipartisan bill that came from a bi partisan commission. A centrist compromise. So correct not far left at all. But not perspective changing to me. A good argument for the middle referred to by myself and the Blue Dogs.

10 EPR-radar  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 9:15:01pm

re: #9 Political Atheist

As if there have not been broader amnesty proposals, say that may not have been bi partisan and not criminalized anything?

Both unlike the Reagan bipartisan bill that came from a bi partisan commission. A centrist compromise. So correct not far left at all. But not perspective changing to me. A good argument for the middle referred to by myself and the Blue Dogs.

I have problems with viewing ‘the middle’ as something that is achieved by a ‘bipartisan process’. Granted that things used to work that way, this model does not work with this GOP, especially since the election of Obama.

Since it’s the new normal, it is easy to lose sight of how radical the House GOP is being. Had the Democrats tried the same games in 2006, they would have caused a debt ceiling crisis over defunding the war in Iraq.

11 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 9:21:12pm

re: #10 EPR-radar

Agreed about the GOP but this is Dems talking mostly to Dems right? How to best force the radical GOP to move centrist. Draw the line in a different place than what might have been wise in the past. A new tactic. This is a bit weird, this political space used to be shared, and now not so much. Maybe that’s why the term Fiscal Conservative went from an understood position to hated curse for some, albeit not me. Anyway I have some work to do then it’s out for the night. I’ll look in again at comments tomorrow.

12 blueraven  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 9:55:28pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

Um, about that single payer thing that was proposed but died quick? Immigration proposals? Again the far left stuff dies quick but it was there. That Progressive caucus?

Huh? The Immigration bill passed by the Senate was bi-partisan but it cant be brought up in the House because…republicans.
Also the CBO states that it will actually help reduce the deficit and increase GDP. How is it fiscally responsible to not pass the bill?

I guess it depends on what “Fiscal Conservative” means. If it is the silly austerity “penny-wise and pound foolish” variety floating around the tea party circle…no thanks.

We have to invest in this country or die.

Where are the fiscally responsible republicans?

13 XtremeDave  Tue, Aug 20, 2013 10:41:33pm

re: #3 Political Atheist

Start in the middle. That’s the concept I like most. Start where we probably belong and will wind up anyway and break the habit of horse trading style negotiating in the internet age.

I believe most of President Obama’s proposals have started in the political middle (or close to it, he’s no radical). Except the Republicans have always tarred them as far left, therefore setting the “compromise point” of what policy gets enacted well to the right of center.

As for calling Jerry Brown a fiscal conservative, I like that. He believes that government should tax what it spends. If the people want more services, taxes should be raised to pay for it, as is common sense.

14 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 3:36:40am

re: #8 Political Atheist

That’s really a matter of opinion on single payer.

No, it’s not. All other first-world countries, and many non-first world countries, have single-payer or a hybrid form that still accomplishes complete or near-complete coverage, not because of some leftist ideology but because it’s practical.

By far left on single payer I mean within our domestic political landscape.

There’s no reason single payer should be ‘far left’ on our political landscape either. It’s a superior economic choice, it should be the conservative position.

If you mean you’re going to judge stuff by the current slat, where the individual mandate that was proposed by Heritage is now suddenly left-wing, I don’t know what to say.

Aren’t most of the blue dogs socons, and aren’t a lot of them really shaky on AGW?

15 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 5:07:48am

re: #9 Political Atheist

As if there have not been broader amnesty proposals, say that may not have been bi partisan and not criminalized anything?

No clue what you’re talking about. immigration reform isn’t ‘far-left’. If you’re talking about some specific proposal, name it.

Both unlike the Reagan bipartisan bill that came from a bi partisan commission. A centrist compromise. So correct not far left at all. But not perspective changing to me. A good argument for the middle referred to by myself and the Blue Dogs.

Again, no clue what you’re talking about. The Democrats’ immigration proposals are all incredibly centrist or even slightly conservative. The DREAM act, for example, isn’t the least bit far left.

What far left immigration proposal are you talking about?

16 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 6:14:28am

re: #15 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

In essence your Reagan reference is not supportive of your point. I pointed some particulars out, but you don’t get it. Okay. I take you do not agree that there have been far left proposals from the Dem congress in the last few decades. I pointed out a couple and we disagree okay. That happens.

I realize that like myself the BlueDogs lean too far right for plenty of good people here to agree. Perhaps the Blue Dog caucus can better define it’s references than I can. Feel free to inquire with them. I’m still going through the roster and vote records.

17 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 6:21:53am

re: #13 XtremeDave

I believe most of President Obama’s proposals have started in the political middle (or close to it, he’s no radical). Except the Republicans have always tarred them as far left, therefore setting the “compromise point” of what policy gets enacted well to the right of center.

As for calling Jerry Brown a fiscal conservative, I like that. He believes that government should tax what it spends. If the people want more services, taxes should be raised to pay for it, as is common sense.

Obama has been a centrist, much to my relief and consternation for those that favor a stronger progressive effort. Edit-This explains some of his successes and is a hint the BD’s are right about the value of the middle. But my Page here is about the legislature not the exec. And the Blue Dogs in the houses, and why I like them. They make a good point the rest of their party should not write them off, and should consider some tactical changes on the political give and take with the GOP.

18 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 6:26:35am

re: #12 blueraven

I guess it depends on what “Fiscal Conservative” means. If it is the silly austerity “penny-wise and pound foolish” variety floating around the tea party circle…no thanks.

We have to invest in this country or die.

Where are the fiscally responsible republicans?

Hopefully it’s clear I’m not including the Tea Party types.
If there were fiscally / politically responsible republicans this Page would be about them. For “fiscal conservative” general meaning I say we go by the examples above and perhaps Gov. Jerry Brown who fits it nicely. Fiscal conservatives like these will get my vote over those less so.

19 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 6:44:50am

re: #16 Political Atheist

In essence your Reagan reference is not supportive of your point. I pointed some particulars out, but you don’t get it.

You didn’t point out anything that made sense to me.

Okay. I take you do not agree that there have been far left proposals from the Dem congress in the last few decades. I pointed out a couple and we disagree okay. That happens.

Please cite the far-left proposals. The specific proposals, especially with immigration.

I realize that like myself the BlueDogs lean too far right for plenty of good people here to agree. Perhaps the Blue Dog caucus can better define it’s references than I can. Feel free to inquire with them. I’m still going through the roster and vote records.

Most of them I’ve found have been socons.

And again, I don’t think ‘right’ and ‘left’ are useful metrics, and I don’t get why people are so bound to them.

20 Flounder  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 7:11:50am

My way or the highway.

21 blueraven  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 8:15:11am

I think we have plenty of blue dogs already. But the “middle” has moved so far to the right with redistricting that even the blue dogs are considered socialists.

When the republicans start actively participating in the legislative process instead of engaging in pure obstructionism, maybe this conversation will be more relevant.

22 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 9:15:18am

re: #19 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You didn’t point out anything that made sense to me.

Please cite the far-left proposals. The specific proposals, especially with immigration.

And again, I don’t think ‘right’ and ‘left’ are useful metrics, and I don’t get why people are so bound to them.

For this moment, this is as specific as I am being.

And second, the party needs to lead from the middle to convince Southerners that a vote for a Democrat is not a vote for far-left policies in Washington that are out of step with the more moderate views in rural America.

As to far right and far left, they are imperfect terms. But they are what we have in the common use, so like fiscal conservative I will have to trust the reader to get my meaning. Any alternative would either be lengthy or less commonly understood. I didn’t make these phrases, I just have them in my vocabulary. Imperfections and all.

23 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 9:19:33am

re: #22 Political Atheist

For this moment, this is as specific as I am being.

You’ve made a claim— that there are far-left proposals on immigration. Are you able to substantiate this claim?

As to far right and far left, they are imperfect terms. But they are what we have in the common use, so like fiscal conservative I will have to trust the reader to get my meaning.

Do you consider the individual mandate, which originated with the ultra-conservative Heritage Foundation, to be a ‘right’ or ‘left’ idea?

24 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 9:33:46am

re: #23 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You’ve made a claim— that there are far-left proposals on immigration. Are you able to substantiate this claim?

Immigration, well right now my google efforts only show the latest wrangle. I have not yet hit the key phrase to dig up 30 years of immigration proposals from the Democrats in two houses to provide that link or three. For now I’m backing up a bit to the less specific position as quoted. I don’t have time to get links right now. As I said I’m reviewing the Blue Dog membership vote and issue history. In any case we may just differ on what far left means anyway right?

Do you consider the individual mandate, which originated with the ultra-conservative Heritage Foundation, to be a ‘right’ or ‘left’ idea?

Is that a trick question? I find the “individual mandate” to be a terrible example for labeling. In and of itself it’s neither or some might argue either. How it works at heart would make all the difference. individual mandate to get insurance from a wide option of well regulated private service providers? Not a left wing thing. A mandate to join a fully government administered and operated medical system would be.

Would you like to link the specifics of the Heritage proposal? We could look at those if you like.

25 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 9:45:02am

re: #24 Political Atheist

Immigration, well right now my google efforts only show the latest wrangle. I have not yet hit the key phrase to dig up 30 years of immigration proposals from the Democrats in two houses to provide that link or three. For now I’m backing up a bit to the less specific position as quoted. I don’t have time to get links right now. As I said I’m reviewing the Blue Dog membership vote and issue history. In any case we may just differ on what far left means anyway right?

So are you withdrawing your claim about far-left immigration proposals?

Is that a trick question?

No, I don’t ask trick questions. I’m trying to figure out what your metric for ‘left’ and ‘right’ is. You previously said:

By far left on single payer I mean within our domestic political landscape.

But now you seem to be saying that ideas are ‘left’ or ‘right’ on their own, not just for where they are on our domestic political landscape.

I find the “individual mandate” to be a terrible example for labeling. In and of itself it’s neither or some might argue either. How it works at heart would make all the difference. individual mandate to get insurance from a wide option of well regulated private service providers? Not a left wing thing. A mandate to join a fully government administered and operated medical system would be.

Okay. So the individual mandate as it stands isn’t a left-wing thing.

Why is single-payer ‘far left’ to you?

26 blueraven  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 9:47:50am
How it works at heart would make all the difference. individual mandate to get insurance from a wide option of well regulated private service providers? Not a left wing thing. A mandate to join a fully government administered and operated medical system would be.

Since the former is the way the mandate is written, I don’t understand your either/or answer about how it would work.

27 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 10:20:40am

re: #26 blueraven

Well “a” mandate vs “the” mandate is what I’m thinking. Rephrasing-A mandate in and of itself is indy, not left or right. The heritage mandate I’m not terribly familiar with. The mandate we sorta have now is a centrist compromise.

28 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 10:27:43am

re: #27 Political Atheist

Well “a” mandate vs “the” mandate is what I’m thinking. Rephrasing-A mandate in and of itself is indy, not left or right. The heritage mandate I’m not terribly familiar with. The mandate we sorta have now is a centrist compromise.

The mandate we have now is actually weaker than what Heritage proposed. I’m not sure how you can describe it as ‘centrist’, unless you’re talking about the ‘center’ between today’s batshit insane GOP and the centrist Democrats.

29 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 10:29:39am
But now you seem to be saying that ideas are ‘left’ or ‘right’ on their own, not just for where they are on our domestic political landscape.

Sure as you drill down to details. I think of single payer, meaning the government is so very involved in the administration and payment as far left of my position. If it were literally government hospitals exclusively or close I’d call that far left by most any measure. That’s “far left” of what I would personally like to see. I would prefer a wide option of well regulated private providers that would operate a lot different than now. That’s a “far right’ position in many peoples view. For clarity I’d add my wish is not on the table given the GOP.

30 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 10:30:53am

re: #28 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The mandate we have now is actually weaker than what Heritage proposed. I’m not sure how you can describe it as ‘centrist’, unless you’re talking about the ‘center’ between today’s batshit insane GOP and the centrist Democrats.

As admitted these are imprecise terms. Opinions vary. But still tossing these phrases out would just make these conversations more difficult overall.

31 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 10:58:01am

With respect to the original article, I have problems with people who run as Democrats and call their own party’s positions on issues ‘far left’.

This is one way to win in swing House districts, but I’d prefer to see a liberal counterpart to the RW media operation, where left of center ideas are constantly being put out there for national discussion instead of the much higher visibility we have now for right wing and extreme right wing ideas.

For completeness, I should admit that I simply cannot understand present-day swing voters. How can someone vote D one election then R the next, or vice versa, with the parties as they presently are? It’s incomprehensible to me.

Wingnuts and dedicated R voters are much easier to for me to understand, although I disagree with their positions.

32 blueraven  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 10:59:20am

re: #29 Political Atheist

Sure as you drill down to details. I think of single payer, meaning the government is so very involved in the administration and payment as far left of my position. If it were literally government hospitals exclusively or close I’d call that far left by most any measure. That’s “far left” of what I would personally like to see. I would prefer a wide option of well regulated private providers that would operate a lot different than now. That’s a “far right’ position in many peoples view. For clarity I’d add my wish is not on the table given the GOP.

And this just defeats the entire argument that dems are negotiating from the far left as that never was a proposal. The only thing they wanted was a public option which was compromised away and still garnered no republican votes.

33 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 11:06:38am

re: #29 Political Atheist

. I think of single payer, meaning the government is so very involved in the administration and payment as far left of my position. If it were literally government hospitals exclusively or close I’d call that far left by most any measure.

First of all: I asked why it’s far left to you, not if it is. Can you explain why it’s far left?

Second of all: You’re aware a very large number of our hospitals are already government hospitals, right? Are you opposed to the existence of those hospitals? For-profit hospitals are a minority, lower in number than government hospitals. If you include the state school hospitals as ‘government’, which they should be, the numbers are even bigger. I think a lot of people don’t realize how much hospital care is already delivered through the government.

I would prefer a wide option of well regulated private providers that would operate a lot different than now. That’s a “far right’ position in many peoples view. For clarity I’d add my wish is not on the table given the GOP.

Private providers of what, health insurance?

If so, can I ask what value you think private insurers add to the process? They have higher overheads, lower patient satisfaction, etc. than government plans.

34 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 11:20:50am

re: #33 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Second of all: You’re aware a very large number of our hospitals are already government hospitals, right? Are you opposed to the existence of those hospitals? For-profit hospitals are a minority, lower in number than government hospitals. If you include the state school hospitals as ‘government’, which they should be, the numbers are even bigger. I think a lot of people don’t realize how much hospital care is already delivered through the government.

This is off the actual topic and into health care policy.So, I’ll refrain in favor of some other reading that happens need my attention. Time will tell if the Blue Dogs have a point or not. I think thy do. All else is just opinions. Myself included of course. We’ll see.

35 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 11:25:20am

re: #34 Political Atheist

This is off the actual topic and into health care policy.So, I’ll refrain in favor of some other reading that happens need my attention. Time will tell if the Blue Dogs have a point or not. I think thy do. All else is just opinions. Myself included of course. We’ll see.

This is really not off the topic, it’s on the topic that you yourself raised. It’s kind of annoying for you to bring up something— government control of medical care— and then declare it off-topic.

36 blueraven  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 11:28:21am

re: #34 Political Atheist

This is off the actual topic and into health care policy.So, I’ll refrain in favor of some other reading that happens need my attention. Time will tell if the Blue Dogs have a point or not. I think thy do. All else is just opinions. Myself included of course. We’ll see.

OK I would just ask for one example lately (Obama presidency) in which the dems are negotiating from a far left position in any major legislation.

always starting political debates on the far left, and only moving to the middle during negotiations, Democrats should begin in the middle and challenge Republicans to come to us

I reject the premise of this blue dog argument.

37 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 11:37:47am

re: #35 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I think if you look at the actual paragraph I wrote for the topic you will see how far away from the topic we are. Sure comments run down details but we got further along than I have time for. Apparently you have the advantage of much more time. I’ll defer to that advantage for now.

38 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 11:57:25am

re: #37 Political Atheist

I think if you look at the actual paragraph I wrote for the topic you will see how far away from the topic we are.

Okay, you were the one who raised government control of medical care. If you think that’s off-topic, then don’t bring it up in the first place. You appeared to have an incorrect impression of how medical care is delivered in this country: at the hospital level, at least, for-profit is a small minority of the way it’s delivered.

39 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 1:45:13pm

re: #36 blueraven

OK I would just ask for one example lately (Obama presidency) in which the dems are negotiating from a far left position in any major legislation.

Well we are near certain to disagree on whats far left. Lately? Being in the minority has held them back very significantly. If we hearken back to a Dem majority in the house it’s too far back.

I reject the premise of this blue dog argument.

Fine. Time will out. We’ll see how they do as the GOP loses the majority and likely the WH.

40 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 1:49:31pm

re: #38 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Okay, you were the one who raised government control of medical care. If you think that’s off-topic, then don’t bring it up in the first place. You appeared to have an incorrect impression of how medical care is delivered in this country: at the hospital level, at least, for-profit is a small minority of the way it’s delivered.

Yeah in an attempt to illustrate where I think left and right is. Why are you limiting private to the for profit side anyway? What of charitable non profit hospitals?
Non-profit hospital
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

A non-profit hospital, or not-for-profit hospital, is a hospital which is organized as a non-profit corporation. Based on their charitable purpose and most often affiliated with a religious denomination they are a traditional means of delivering medical care in the United States. Non-profit hospitals are distinct from government owned public hospitals and privately owned for-profit hospitals.

In 2003, of the roughly 3,900 nonfederal, short-term, acute care general hospitals in the United States, the majority—about 62 percent—were nonprofit. The rest included government hospitals (20 percent) and for-profit hospitals (18 percent).[1]

41 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 21, 2013 7:55:00pm

re: #40 Political Atheist

Yeah in an attempt to illustrate where I think left and right is. Why are you limiting private to the for profit side anyway? What of charitable non profit hospitals?

I’m not limiting anything. I very clearly said what I meant to: In the comparison between for-profit hospitals and government, there are more government hospitals. I made that explicitly clear. Why you’re acting now like this was some trick of mine I have no idea.

Again, aren’t most of the blue dogs socons?


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Sergio Mendes & Brasil 66 - Mas Que Nada (Introduced by Eartha Kitt / Something Special 1967)Sergio Mendes & Brasil 66 - Mas que nada, from Eartha Kitt's Something Special 1967.
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Wes Montgomery - Here’s That Rainy Day - Live London 1965Stan Tracey (piano) Wes Montgomery (guitar) Rick Laird (bass) Jackie Dougan (drums)Television broadcast, "Tempo", ABC TV, London, England, May 7, 1965
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Halsey - You Should Be Sad (Lyric Video) Halsey’s new album ‘Manic’ out now! halsey.lnk.toiTunes: halsey.lnk.toSpotify: halsey.lnk.to Apple Music: halsey.lnk.toAmazon: halsey.lnk.toGoogle Play: halsey.lnk.to Get tickets to #ManicWorldTour! Each ticket purchase comes with a physical copy of ‘Manic’.halsey.lnk.to Follow Halsey –Twitter: @halsey Facebook: facebook.com Instagram: instagram.comSpotify: halsey.lnk.toOfficial Site: ...
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6 days, 2 hours ago
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