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1 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:00:37am

Did anyone tell Kevin Williamson that the National Review has been one of the main right wing promoters of the “intelligent design” fraud for many, many years? Are we supposed to forget about that?

2 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:01:32am

This article is deeply dishonest.

3 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:30:13am

The author is a total ass promoting ID. :

“Teach the controversy” is of course precisely the right approach — for graduate students in biology and for those in theological studies. Like any living scholarly discipline, the study of evolution has some lively disputes — but whether Genesis 1 is a biological account of the origins of life on Earth is not one of them. (Or so I am reliably informed.) Spend a few hours browsing the evolution literature and you will come away with three unmistakable impressions: (1) Molecular biologists can be angry, angry people, and (2) such controversies as actually exist within the study of evolution are specialized and technical far beyond the ability of high-schoolers to participate meaningfully in the conversation, because (3) science is hard.

and:

There is a very good case — in my view, a winning one — for incorporating the study of Christian thinking and texts into every school curriculum as a matter of literacy, if not moral instruction. (It is not that I think moral instruction is unimportant — far from that, it is too important to be entrusted to the government schools.) But there is no respectable case for incorporating so-called creation science, or its slightly more sophisticated and intellectually fraudulent big brother, intelligent design, into biological studies.

Keep your frigging religion out of public schools, keep schools secular.

4 blueraven  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:31:53am
There is a very good case — in my view, a winning one — for incorporating the study of Christian thinking and texts into every school curriculum as a matter of literacy, if not moral instruction.

Bullshit right there.
No, there is no reason to incorporate Christian thinking or texts in any public school.

Private schools or elective college classes…fine.

5 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:34:45am

And here you see the same author calling for and rooting on the destruction of our Government:

amazon.com

6 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:38:14am

re: #3 Randall Gross

Williamson calls Intelligent Design “intellectually fraudulent” in the passage you quote. That can hardly be seen as him supporting it.

7 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:42:49am

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Bullshit. He then suggests “teaching the controversy,” which anyone who was here through the year of Ben Stein “Expelled” posts and discussion (LIKE YOU,) understands as just another back door mechanism to sneak religious agitprop and ID pamphlets in through the backdoor.

8 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:51:42am

re: #7 Randall Gross

Bullshit. He then suggests “teaching the controversy,” which anyone who was here through the year of Ben Stein “Expelled” posts and discussion (LIKE YOU,) understands as just another back door mechanism to sneak religious agitprop and ID pamphlets in through the backdoor.

No, he uses the phrase “Teach the controversy” first then two paragraphs later calls ID fraudulent. There is also the next paragraph that serves as evidence that Williamson isn’t trying to sneak a religious theme into science classes:

And there isn’t a good religious case for doing so, either. This is where our Evangelical friends could really use a magisterium. After spending a century or so thinking about it, the Catholic Church decided that there is no intrinsic conflict between its teachings and the science of evolution. That is as it should be: A Christianity with intellectual confidence in itself is not threatened by biology or any other science, because it is not threatened by reality. One of the great glories of Catholic thinking in the era that began with John Paul II and continues with Francis is a more generous and more dynamic conception of Christianity’s role in the world and of man’s relationship to God — Who is, it should go without saying, not subject to laboratory analysis or hypothetical confirmation. It is worth remembering that the Catholic Church’s worst episodes of anti-intellectualism came at the moments when it had the least true confidence in its own cause, especially during the Reformation. A Christianity that believes its own dogma does not need to insist upon petty certitudes: Witness the intellectual ape show — in secular and religious circles alike — that greeted Francis’s recent remarks regarding the redemption of atheists. Some people will never be happy until they have a detailed census of Hell.

The thrust of Williamson’s argument, in whole and in part, is that religion doesn’t have a place in high school science classes and that those who say it does are being wrongheaded.

9 blueraven  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:55:08am

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Williamson calls Intelligent Design “intellectually fraudulent” in the passage you quote. That can hardly be seen as him supporting it.

He decries it as biological studies but not sneaking it in as a matter of “literacy or moral instruction”.
So he wants to have his cake and eat it too. As Charles said, this is deeply dishonest.

10 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:55:34am

Teaching the controversy is implying religion, regardless of how you want to characterize what he said. As his two statements indicate he’s fine with proselytizing in public schools.

11 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 8:56:05am

re: #9 blueraven

He decries it as biological studies but not sneaking it in as a matter of “literacy or moral instruction”.
So he wants to have his cake and eat it too. As Charles said, this is deeply dishonest.

Indeed, he’s just another liar for Jesus.

12 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 9:01:08am

A whole data dump from NCSE on “teaching the controversy”

google.com

13 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 9:04:44am

The rest of this story is that several red state legislatures are trying to enact “Academic Freedom” and other school standards bills to “teach the controversy” about history ala Barton, and Global Warming ala Monckton.

14 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 9:06:48am

re: #10 Randall Gross

Teaching the controversy is implying religion, regardless of how you want to characterize what he said. As his two statements indicate he’s fine with proselytizing in public schools.

“Teach the controversy” is of course precisely the right approach — for graduate students in biology and for those in theological studies. Like any living scholarly discipline, the study of evolution has some lively disputes — but whether Genesis 1 is a biological account of the origins of life on Earth is not one of them.

That is not a statement indicating Williamson favors “proselytizing in public schools”. He is clearly stating that controversies within evolution should be taught to graduate students in universities and that theological controversies should be dealt with for those taking theological studies classes. Neither such thing puts religion into science classes.

Guys, you really are going after things that aren’t there.

15 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 9:34:48am

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

Are you really that gullible, or are you just pretending? We are going after things that are definitely there.

There is a very good case — in my view, a winning one — for incorporating the study of Christian thinking and texts into every school curriculum as a matter of literacy, if not moral instruction.

Do you see him asking to teach Buddhist morals? Atheist Morals? Inserting Zoroastrianism? How about Islamic Suras, do you think he would favor that?

16 jamesfirecat  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 9:37:48am

“There is a very good case — in my view, a winning one — for incorporating the study of Christian thinking and texts into every school curriculum as a matter of literacy, if not moral instruction”

Can we do the same thing with Muslim thinking?

With The thinking of those who promote a Lovecraftian view of the universe?

17 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 9:40:56am

re: #15 Randall Gross

Are you really that gullible, or are you just pretending? We are going after things that are definitely there.

Do you see him asking to teach Buddhist morals? Atheist Morals? Inserting Zoroastrianism? How about Islamic Suras, do you think he would favor that?

I could see him favoring those things being learned as matters of cultural understanding. Religion is deeply part of the culture in many places, so a class dealing with cultural studies should deal with religion in a non-proselytizing manner.

18 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 10:01:30am

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

He wasn’t talking about ” a culture class” so don’t stuff words in his mouth.

every school curriculum

His goal is very clear to anyone with a brain.

19 ObserverArt  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 10:05:05am

I went to a freaking Catholic school system and they never foisted this crap on us. And that was the full 12 years of grade and high school.

20 blueraven  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 10:11:08am

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

I could see him favoring those things being learned as matters of cultural understanding. Religion is deeply part of the culture in many places, so a class dealing with cultural studies should deal with religion in a non-proselytizing manner.

Now you are projecting. He never argued that.

21 ObserverArt  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 10:42:35am

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

I could see him favoring those things being learned as matters of cultural understanding. Religion is deeply part of the culture in many places, so a class dealing with cultural studies should deal with religion in a non-proselytizing manner.

Then have a World Religions and Politics class, subtitled: Living a Tolerant Life in America. That is what is really needed. You can damn well guarantee the people behind this would never accept it.

Do not tie that crap into science.

All they are doing is selling dogma. How ever did America get to this point without having this taught? Can you please answer that Dark Falcon?

And Dark, I am new here as far as posting, but have read for a time. I take it you fashion yourself as a conservative. Can I ask why you wouldn’t support the Constitution on something like separation of church and state as much as I read you support the 2nd amendment?

22 Mattand  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 11:12:35am
There is a very good case — in my view, a winning one — for incorporating the study of Christian thinking and texts into every school curriculum as a matter of literacy, if not moral instruction. (It is not that I think moral instruction is unimportant — far from that, it is too important to be entrusted to the government schools.) But there is no respectable case for incorporating so-called creation science, or its slightly more sophisticated and intellectually fraudulent big brother, intelligent design, into biological studies.

You don’t get to pretend you’re upset by creationism/intelligent design being promoted as science, and then turn around and advocate incorporating religious instruction in public schools.

23 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 12:02:55pm

A Google search at the National Review site for “Discovery Institute,” the leading creationist propaganda center, yields about 1,950 results:

google.com

24 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 12:03:50pm

Wow, look at all those creationist articles at the National Review.

25 wrenchwench  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 1:34:36pm

I have relatives who study and teach evolutionary genetics. This paragraph:

“Teach the controversy” is of course precisely the right approach — for graduate students in biology and for those in theological studies. Like any living scholarly discipline, the study of evolution has some lively disputes — but whether Genesis 1 is a biological account of the origins of life on Earth is not one of them. (Or so I am reliably informed.) Spend a few hours browsing the evolution literature and you will come away with three unmistakable impressions: (1) Molecular biologists can be angry, angry people, and (2) such controversies as actually exist within the study of evolution are specialized and technical far beyond the ability of high-schoolers to participate meaningfully in the conversation, because (3) science is hard.

…is so much bullshit.

There is no ‘controversy’ over evolution. There is only learning more about it. Saying ‘molecular biologists can be angry, angry people’ says nothing about the topic at hand, it only says Williamson wants to smear scientists in any manner he can get away with. His numbers 2 and 3 only try to make people feel they have to accept the opinions of others because they are incapable of forming their own on the subject. Not true. Science is hard, but having scientists explain stuff to everyone is part of science.

Williamson uses an argument against creationists that he should use on himself:

That the creation-science gang is most interested in sharing its ideas with the audiences least intellectually prepared to evaluate them suggests that it is up to no good.

I don’t know why you trust this man to say anything you might respect, Dark. And I can’t figure out why you think he’s honest.

26 subterraneanhomesickalien  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 1:56:29pm

re: #25 wrenchwench

I don’t know why you trust this man to say anything you might respect, Dark.

Because he’s desperate to claim any sort of whiff of intellectualism from his side, so he then can go on to deny that anti-intellectualism is a widespread phenomena whatsoever for his side in general.

Its why you hear so many wingnuts cite Thomas Sowell when someone asks them for an influential African American right wing thinker, regardless of the fact that Newell is fucking institutional, and they really don’t like black people.

Of course I’m not saying that Dark is a wingnut or a doesn’t like black people. I’m just saying he’s fucking delusional if he thinks this fucking hipster-sheik right wing tit Williamson is any different from the rest of the right wing intellectual(what passes for it anyway) crowd.

27 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 4:58:17pm

I would love it if the National Review really, sincerely reevaluated some of the things they stand for, and pulled back from the social conservative brink. But it really isn’t gonna happen.

Williamson serves kind of the same purpose Derbyshire did (without the overt racism). He’s their rational beard, the guy who calls BS on intelligent design. Except he really isn’t doing that - he’s still in favor of the ultimate agenda, which is to PUT GOD BACK IN THE CLASSROOM. Christianity, specifically.

And when the Discovery Institute has several authors who regularly write for the National Review, well, it is what it is.

28 Interesting Times  Sun, Sep 15, 2013 5:16:23pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

And when the Discovery Institute has several authors who regularly write for the National Review, well, it is what it is.

To say nothing of their malicious and slanderous harassment of climate scientists:

Three new Plaintiff’s briefs were filed last week with the DC Superior Court in climate scientist Michael Mann’s defamation lawsuit against the National Review and the Competitive Enterprise Institute. “In view of the defendants’ initial public bravado regarding Dr. Mann, their latest attempt to avoid a trial on this matter rings hollow. … Faced now with the prospect of financial liability for their gleeful tirades, defendants do not want discovery, as it would involve discovery into their own conduct. And they certainly do not want to face a jury of their peers.” Documents with full text below.

Thankfully the judge in the case isn’t falling for National Review’s cowardly little stalling tactics:

DC judge denies another effort to derail Michael Mann’s defamation lawsuit

Moving forward to the discovery stage of Michael Mann’s defamation lawsuit against the National Review and the Competitive Enterprise Institute was expedited when District of Columbia Superior Court judge Weisberg on September 12 denied yet another motion by the defendants that would have created a procedural delay. If the defendants’ are hoping that having a new judge on the case will bring a very different viewpoint, his first procedural ruling doesn’t support it.

Here’s hoping the slimy little anti-science liars get taken for all they’re worth.


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