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1 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 4:52:54pm
There is a simple solution to the ACA and shutdown crisis. Establish a national referendum and put the ACA on the ballot in November.

It’s already a law, you dumbass.

You are dumber than a 4th grader.

2 EPR-radar  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 4:55:09pm

FFS. This national referendum already happened in 2012.

Results:

1) Romney, who ran on repealing the ACA, lost the election. He lost both the popular vote and in the electoral college. Mr. ‘47%’ got 47% of the popular vote, which, in case you missed it, is a losing margin.

2) In 2012, the GOP lost seats in the house. In fact, the only reason the GOP kept control of the House is the gerrymandering they did in 2010. 2 million more votes were cast for (D) representative than for (R) representatives in 2012.

So we have effectively had at least two recent national referendums on the subject of the ACA, and it was supported in both cases.

3 CuriousLurker  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 4:55:14pm
4 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 4:55:28pm

” I know it is already a law and an unpopular law”

The poll indicates that Obamacare is not popular, with 57% saying they oppose the law, up 3 points from May, and 38% saying they support the measure, down five points from May.

But only about four in 10 oppose it because it is too liberal, with about one in 10 saying they don’t like the law because it is not liberal enough.

If you add the 38% who favor the law to the 11% to oppose the law because it’s not liberal enough, you get 49%, compared with the 39% who say they oppose the law because it’s too liberal.

i’ll bet that you didn’t know that 11% of americans oppose the law because they think it doesn’t go far enough

i know those people. what they want is canadian-style single payer. no, canadians are not trying to get rid of it - try talking to some actual canadians

5 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 4:58:25pm

Establish a national referendum and put the ACA on the ballot

funny, nobody was pushing to put the iraq war on a referendum

how about putting obama’s stimulus plan on a referendum? [edit - i mean the more recent one that he proposed and which was ignored by congress]

how about putting raising the contribution limit on social security so that it will stay solvent past 2045 on a referendum?

why is it always things that republicans want to revisit that can’t be settled when they are passed by normal means???

6 You_Stole_Fizzy-Lifting_Drinks  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 5:08:39pm

Needs MOAR CAPS!!!

7 Skip Intro  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 5:13:29pm

I admit my memory isn’t what it used to be. Remind me again when a President called a special election and put a binding resolution on a “national” ballot.

It seems to me that if he can do that, then there’s no reason to have the Congress or elections any more.

8 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 5:16:30pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

Obamacare Reality Check

reality has done took a rain check

9 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 5:16:43pm

jeez…francis can’t even bother to respond even though he found the breadcrumb trail…

10 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 5:24:10pm

francis is mostly in favor of health care reform here - i think most of his suggestions are unobjectionable - it’s just that i don’t agree that we need to take extraordinary measures that are never taken for any other legislation and resubmit it to another vote

11 jamesfirecat  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 5:49:53pm

“There is a simple solution to the ACA and shutdown crisis. Establish a national referendum and put the ACA on the ballot in November. Let the people decide if they want the ACA to continue in force.”

Or we could have an election between a guy who promises to be repeal it on his first day in office and the guy who established it.

Oh wait we did, and Obama got reflected.

12 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 8:08:08pm

Referendums are distinctly undemocratic and most useful to push ideologically based agendas into law.

This is because there is only a ‘Yes’ or a ‘No’ vote. There is no debate on the text of the item being voted on, just whether it should be made a law or not. There is no polishing, no thought about the consequences, no adding or subtracting things to make it more useful or less damaging to the public.

The referendum text is written by people with an ideological agenda then voted on by those member of the voting public that bother to show up. Who are most likely people tied to the ideological agenda of those who created the referendum.

So referenda are just an appearance of democracy.

Ask Napoleon.

13 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:56:35pm

re: #1 Vicious Babushka

your a dumb ass, they can repeal it as fast as they passed it and there is still a chance it is unconstitutional be cause it originated from the senate. Your so smart you missed the point of the letter.

14 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:00:49pm

re: #2 EPR-radar

The law was passed with the help of 80 congressmen that lost the election over the ACA. It can still be repealed and found unconstitutional. If the dumbass republicans ever get their stuff together, all hell will braek loose.

15 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:08:36pm

re: #4 dog philosopher

dog, I have talked to Canadians, specifically a man who brought his wife to Michigan for treatment. He was too late and she passed away. The point of the letter is to make the law permanent and stronger. Medicare is a single payer insurance plan that the doctors like and the hospitals, so why didn’t they model it after Medicare? No they had to fill it with restrictions, demands on business and a lot of horse shit taxes.

16 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:15:29pm

re: #5 dog philosopher

Dog the means were not normal. SS would not be going broke if the government didn’t borrow all the money from it. A major portion of the deficit is owed to the SS fund.
Why didn’t we go to war right away in WW II, the people didn’t want to.
The point is some things should not be solved by politicians.

17 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:19:35pm

re: #7 Skip Intro

There is no national referendum, some states have it , for example smoking marijuana, and bond issues.

18 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:28:12pm

re: #10 dog philosopher

Legislation that has a major impact on everyone especially when congress can’t agree should go back to the people. This is not about spending money for a new damn or road repair. The bill is being held hostage by a few people in congress and we need to stop those kinds of interruption. Reid or Boehner could have tabled this bill at any time and it would have never been law.

19 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:29:32pm

re: #16 francis

Dog the means were not normal. SS would not be going broke if the government didn’t borrow all the money from it. A major portion of the deficit is owed to the SS fund.
Why didn’t we go to war right away in WW II, the people didn’t want to.
The point is some things should not be solved by politicians.

the bill was passed according to regular order

if you think there was something abnormal about it, tell us what it was

20 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:32:41pm

re: #11 jamesfirecat

If it was voted in on a referendum it would have to be repealed that way. One person or a group could not change the results except if it were against the law. If the republicans take over, it could be repealed tomorrow.

21 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:32:56pm

re: #18 francis

Legislation that has a major impact on everyone especially when congress can’t agree should go back to the people. This is not about spending money for a new damn or road repair. The bill is being held hostage by a few people in congress and we need to stop those kinds of interruption. Reid or Boehner could have tabled this bill at any time and it would have never been law.

why don’t we submit the budget to the people, then?

since when has major legislation ever been submitted to plebiscite in this country?

you just decided for yourself that this particular law should get special treatment that no other law in the history of the country ever had, and i’m afraid i don’t see anybody agreeing with you here

but you have already stated that you support the major features of ACA, so why are you trying to get it scuppered?

22 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:33:42pm

re: #20 francis

If it was voted in on a referendum it would have to be repealed that way. One person or a group could not change the results except if it were against the law. If the republicans take over, it could be repealed tomorrow.

listen, francis, take a stand - are you for ACA or are you against it?

23 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:38:07pm

if laws were decided by polls in this country, francis, we would have left iraq in 2005, the top rate would be 40%, and the problems projected for ss in 2045 would have been solved by raising the contribution ceiling

you know how laws are passed and repealed in this country, and i’m not going to repeat it to you

24 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:38:35pm

re: #12 Romantic Heretic

I believe it is Oklahoma and Kansas that are exempt from the ACA because they have better plans in place for the uninsured and it would cause a hardship on the people. This could have also been done through a constitutional amendment and required every state to insure all the people. The ACA does not cover people who travel and get sick in other states and that is why it has to be national like Medicare.

25 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:40:05pm

re: #24 francis

I believe it is Oklahoma and Kansas that are exempt from the ACA because they have better plans in place for the uninsured and it would cause a hardship on the people. This could have also been done through a constitutional amendment and required every state to insure all the people. The ACA does not cover people who travel and get sick in other states and that is why it has to be national like Medicare.

well, this opinion basically makes you a socialist by republican standards

26 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:40:21pm

re: #11 jamesfirecat

They can take it away from you as fast as they gave it to you and it might be decided by only 9 people.

27 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:40:46pm

re: #15 francis

The point of the letter is to make the law permanent and stronger. Medicare is a single payer insurance plan that the doctors like and the hospitals, so why didn’t they model it after Medicare? No they had to fill it with restrictions, demands on business and a lot of horse shit taxes.

on this i agree with you 100%

28 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:46:34pm

re: #22 dog philosopher

Model it after Medicare and take the premiums through paychecks and other tax means and you will have a great medical plan that will cover you across the country. Make adjustments for the supplement money and the prescription plans and have it administrated by private industry as most of Medicare is now.

29 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:53:49pm

re: #15 francis

dog, I have talked to Canadians, specifically a man who brought his wife to Michigan for treatment. He was too late and she passed away. The point of the letter is to make the law permanent and stronger. Medicare is a single payer insurance plan that the doctors like and the hospitals, so why didn’t they model it after Medicare? No they had to fill it with restrictions, demands on business and a lot of horse shit taxes.

canadians - i have canadian in-laws and co-workers - support single payer to the hilt, and no canadian politician of any stripe dares to say a word against it

it is true that it suffers from long waiting lines. curiously, in britain, where the socialization of medicine is complete and even the hospitals are run by the government, they don’t have the waiting line problem

you friend brought his wife to michigan because HE HAD THE CASH TO DO IT AND PAY FOR IT PRIVATELY OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET. anybody with enough cash to do this can get the best medical care in the world right here in the united states. people who can manage to come up with this money, even if it was a strain for him to do it, are not the people who government subsidies for health care, medicare and medicaid, and single payer systems are aimed at

i mean this should be obvious, right?

as for the rube goldberg machine that is ACA, the reason we have arrived here is that obama naively believed that if he promoted the conservative, heritage foundation universal coverage plan, he’d get the cooperation of republicans

hah

so, i’m happy to hear that a 67 year old veteran and small business owner is in favor of the position widely called ‘socialist’ by republican politicians, the position that health care coverage modeled on canadian single payer and medicare would be the better way to go

it works well in a large part of the rest of the developed world. why not here?

30 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:55:09pm

re: #25 dog philosopher

Dog, I am for what is good for Americans, if private industry administers the program it’s capitalism, if the government does it, it is socialism. Who cares what you call it, what is right is right. Look at it this way, no matter how much money you have or don’t have the treatment for a medical condition is the same for everybody, the drugs are the same so who cares what you call the program as long as it works for you.

Everything government does for you or to you is a social program.

31 dog philosopher  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 10:57:08pm

re: #30 francis

Dog, I am for what is good for Americans, if private industry administers the program it’s capitalism, if the government does it, it is socialism. Who cares what you call it, what is right is right. Look at it this way, no matter how much money you have or don’t have the treatment for a medical condition is the same for everybody, the drugs are the same so who cares what you call the program as long as it works for you.

Everything government does for you or to you is a social program.

well, we are in agreement now. i am an engineer and my profession inclines me to consider solutions on the basis of whether or not they get the job done

32 francis  Wed, Oct 2, 2013 11:03:08pm

re: #29 dog philosopher

It doesn’t work here that well because e we have too many prefixes like rich poor black white Hispanic illegal and so on . I only think of people as good and bad and all Americans. What is good for one is good for all. The end of life is the great equalizer, no matter how rich or poor color or nationality we all join the massive ranks of the dead and the arguments stop.

33 palomino  Thu, Oct 3, 2013 5:45:42pm

re: #28 francis

Model it after Medicare and take the premiums through paychecks and other tax means and you will have a great medical plan that will cover you across the country. Make adjustments for the supplement money and the prescription plans and have it administrated by private industry as most of Medicare is now.

You do realize this was Obama’s first plan. He even talked about it during the primary debates with Hillary, et al. in 2007. But as time went on, it became clear that there weren’t enough Dems (and no Repubs) in Congress who would go along with a Medicare-for-all approach (aka single payer). It has been successfully demonized as “radical”, “socialized medicine”, “communism”, etc. So a more market oriented approach was taken, which eventually became the ACA.

Many predict the ACA will eventually be a stepping stone to single payer. Regardless, it’s a step forward over the healthcare mess we currently have with working class people unable to afford basic care, patients denied insurance due to pre-existing conditions, and families going bankrupt.


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