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1 GOPHostage#25698724  Sat, Oct 5, 2013 10:48:11am

Discussion links from the main topic this morning, as often happens Obdicut steps up with objections to my point. Maybe my best critic on these points helps me counter with my best points. See for yourselves if interested.

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2 Flounder  Sat, Oct 5, 2013 10:52:37am

I will agree with you that the driver was engaged in a legitimate act of escape. He feared for his life, and more importantly, the life of his wife and child (wife’s window was almost shattered too). When they did stop him, they beat the shit out of him. luckily some by standers were brave enough to help, not the cop. Shit, they shoot moms in DC, those big brawny cops.

3 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Oct 5, 2013 11:32:25am

If you could actually link to a video, that’d be nice.

4 GOPHostage#25698724  Sat, Oct 5, 2013 3:08:21pm

re: #3 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I linked to a bunch of images and video. One stop-Google.

5 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Oct 5, 2013 3:16:23pm

re: #4 Political Atheist

I linked to a bunch of images and video. One stop-Google.

I thought the full video was six minutes long. All I see there is an excerpt of ‘hollywood reporter’.

6 GOPHostage#25698724  Sat, Oct 5, 2013 5:12:34pm

re: #5 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

There are a bunch of videos. This thing went on for a while. Different news outlets have different clips, which is why I went with the Google search. That should continue to include more video as it becomes available. Best I can do.

7 Stoatly  Mon, Oct 7, 2013 1:57:09am

If this had been a film, yes, adding guns to the equation would have improved things:
Good guy has gun, keeps it ready to use in an instant, (but somehow safe from accidental discharge / becoming fatal plaything for his kid) - knows how to use it in all situations
Bad guys don’t have guns / don’t know how to use them
Pretty standard in films for the bad guys to be spectacularly bad shots - so we might expect a few bystanders to get shot (obviously not by the hero, hero-guns can only shoot bad guys) - a couple of deaths add drama and it’s no biggy, the film’s hero and family are safe, the bystanders have no back-story, we don’t look for their names when the credits roll

The weather’s better in films too, and there’s no remorse or paperwork

8 GOPHostage#25698724  Mon, Oct 7, 2013 9:54:01am

re: #7 Stoatly

If this had been a film, yes, adding guns to the equation would have improved things:
Good guy has gun, keeps it ready to use in an instant, (but somehow safe from accidental discharge / becoming fatal plaything for his kid) - knows how to use it in all situations
Bad guys don’t have guns / don’t know how to use them
Pretty standard in films for the bad guys to be spectacularly bad shots - so we might expect a few bystanders to get shot (obviously not by the hero, hero-guns can only shoot bad guys) - a couple of deaths add drama and it’s no biggy, the film’s hero and family are safe, the bystanders have no back-story, we don’t look for their names when the credits roll

The weather’s better in films too, and there’s no remorse or paperwork

65,000 times a year firearm defense works out just fine. Notably that excludes other weapons which if included would spike the number up. Note the extended chase. Why would the gun have to come out in an instant? Lets not call reality fiction. If it were all like the movies our cops could be unarmed like the bobbies in Britain. Not realistic at all.

9 Stoatly  Mon, Oct 7, 2013 12:04:18pm

re: #8 GOPHostage#25698724

65,000 times a year firearm defense works out just fine.

So that’s why the US has such a low murder rate compared to less armed societies? Oh wait,
Maybe adding more guns means more gun related outcomes - some good, some bad but overall not positive

re: #8 GOPHostage#25698724

Why would the gun have to come out in an instant?

To be useful it has to be assessable near enough instantly in an unforeseen situation - yet secured well enough to prevent theft/accidental discharge/child play discharge.
That’s actually really difficult, in the home it may well be possible (and should be required - gun nuts love to point to Swiss gun ownership without acknowledging the requirements on secure storage)
But as the Washington Navy Yard shooting showed, even the military has issues keeping weapons close enough to hand but simultaneously out of harm’s way.

re: #8 GOPHostage#25698724

Lets not call reality fiction.

Let’s not call fiction reality - guns are not fucking magic

re: #8 GOPHostage#25698724

If it were all like the movies our cops could be unarmed like the bobbies in Britain. Not realistic at all.

I’m a Brit - the “bobbies” do not all ride bicycles two-by-two
I think the restrictions on guns imposed after the Hungerford massacre here went too far - typical politician’s knee-jerk populist move - but in truth it’s had no effect on me and my liberties, though a gun-nut friend had to give up his hand-guns
(Actually remembering how we used to run around with a .303 as kids that we “borrowed” occasionally, maybe the tightening of rules on gun lockers isn’t such a bad idea after all)

I grew up in a rural area around guns, and enjoy shooting - but even if I owned one now the idea of carrying it around everywhere would be a pain - I’ve got enough crap to cart about…….

….anyway I’ll stop now because one thing I’ve learned is that arguing about gun control is a mug’s game on US sites - either way - it’s a little too “Truthy” of an issue (hope this doesn’t come over as patronising) my #7 post wasn’t serious for that reason

BTW it now seems that several off-duty officers (5-8!) may have be involved in some way with this incident, so even more WTF

10 No Country For Old Haters  Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:20:43pm

re: #8 GOPHostage#25698724

65,000 times a year firearm defense works out just fine.

Not against a biker gang. I don’t know why you’re wishing a gun into the situation when a car is better against a crowd, and the family would have likely died in a hail of bullets if they shot one of the bikers.

11 GOPHostage#25698724  Tue, Oct 8, 2013 1:07:36pm

re: #9 Stoatly

re: #8 GOPHostage#25698724

65,000 times a year firearm defense works out just fine.

So that’s why the US has such a low murder rate compared to less armed societies? Oh wait,
Maybe adding more guns means more gun related outcomes - some good, some bad but overall not positive

re: #8 GOPHostage#25698724

Why would the gun have to come out in an instant?

To be useful it has to be assessable near enough instantly in an unforeseen situation - yet secured well enough to prevent theft/accidental discharge/child play discharge.
That’s actually really difficult, in the home it may well be possible (and should be required - gun nuts love to point to Swiss gun ownership without acknowledging the requirements on secure storage)
But as the Washington Navy Yard shooting showed, even the military has issues keeping weapons close enough to hand but simultaneously out of harm’s way.

Both of these points do not apply in the specific case at hand. Broadening my points beyond how I intended is just not a logical path. I specifically said in this instance…. and so on. When you under assault like that a gun is the most effective device available. If available.

Why do so many assume the van driver needed “instant” access for seven minutes or so, and then assume the bikers would have had this fast accurate gun response to a fleeing man after he drew a gun or shot? These points do not go together well at all.

12 Stoatly  Tue, Oct 8, 2013 5:20:22pm

re: #11 GOPHostage#25698724

I specifically said in this instance….

This instance - or what we know so far about it - seems about the worst case to attempt to use a gun.
In a home - with small number of aggressors I can understand (though a lot of family members / innocent strangers get tragically mistaken for aggressors)

But in this situation you waste time converting a passive stowed weapon to active status - when you already have control of a much more effective weapon/transport/shield in the 4x4.

Unless the fire-arm is some kind of crowd-suppression weapon or fully-auto the 4x4 is going to be the better tool anyway.

It appears there were a number of undercover/off-duty LEOs involved in the incident - at least one of whom may have been responsible for smashing a window.
Shooting a LEO, even in self-defence adds a layer of complexity you just don’t want

Start waving a gun around to stop multiple people braking into your SUV - do you open the windows? Wait for them to smash them and take your gun?
Do you shoot first? Hearing damage for your family and maybe you’ve shot a cop (or a bystander if you’re foolish enough to fire a “warning shot”) - that’s if you are very lucky
Unlucky and they fire back - this situation didn’t turn out so great but at least the family survived

13 Stoatly  Tue, Oct 8, 2013 5:46:41pm

Incidentally, I know someone who prevailed in a road-rage incident by producing a chainsaw from the back of his car, starting it, and holding it over his head in the middle of the street.
The other driver turned tail and left satisfyingly swiftly - but I make no claims about the use of chainsaws in personal defence situations


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