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1 Ace-o-aces  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 12:03:25pm

This isn’t a first for them.
en.wikipedia.org

2 ProTARDISLiberal  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 12:08:11pm

re: #1 Ace-o-aces

Yeah, but it is a sign of progress for Muslims in the US.

But, I do wish she could have a different power.

3 the silent one  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 12:28:27pm

“Jersey Witch and Poison dwarf” LOL.

It won’t be long before that deluded harpy and her lap dog will be frothing at the mouth the “Comic book Jihad” to add to the growing list of other Jihad

4 CuriousLurker  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 12:44:10pm

re: #3 the silent one

“Jersey Witch and Poison dwarf” LOL.

It won’t be long before that deluded harpy and her lap dog will be frothing at the mouth the “Comic book Jihad” to add to the growing list of other Jihad

LOL, too true.

5 Bulworth  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 1:24:06pm

One step away from total Sharia Law. //

6 Lidane  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 2:10:16pm

re: #1 Ace-o-aces

This isn’t a first for them.
en.wikipedia.org

I was about to mention Dust. What’s different here is that Kamala Khan is an American girl. Dust is Afghan with a more traditional look.

7 jaunte  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 2:16:24pm

Poor kid’s hand is all swollen.

8 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 3:42:12pm

Comics are often way ahead of the social curve than society as a whole is. I’m not a big comic book reader but way cool of Marvel to do this.

9 scottslemmons  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 4:07:20pm

re: #8 HappyWarrior

Well, as far as “ahead of the social curve” goes, Marvel is a bit better than DC, which is doing what it can to turn itself into an all-white, all-MRA bastion. But I’d say comics have the same problem science fiction and fantasy have — can’t really handle the idea of a world where white nerds don’t rule the roost… :/

10 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 4:32:09pm
Kamala will face struggles outside her own head, including conflicts close to home. “Her brother is extremely conservative,” Ms. Amanat said. “Her mom is paranoid that she’s going to touch a boy and get pregnant.

Great, so her family are fundamentalist weirdos. Hopefully the story shows her evolving away from her roots and becoming an atheist.

11 jamesfirecat  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 5:26:37pm

re: #10 SidewaysQuark

Great, so her family are fundamentalist weirdos. Hopefully the story shows her evolving away from her roots and becoming an atheist.

Atheism is a suckers game in a universe where you can have a chat with Thor any day of the week.

12 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 8:30:51pm

Apparently fundie weirdos from religions outside Christianity (whose fundies exhibit similar weirdness) have a special “downding protection squad” around here. (Lol)

13 klys  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 8:32:35pm

re: #12 SidewaysQuark

If you really think that’s what’s going on, critical thinking isn’t your forte.

14 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:04:55pm

re: #13 klys

If you really think that’s what’s going on, critical thinking isn’t your forte.

Hell, you can’t even seem to step up to the level of non-critical thinking. (See, petty insults work BOTH ways, isn’t that amazing?) lol

15 klys  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:10:07pm

re: #14 SidewaysQuark

Hell, you can’t even seem to step up to the level of non-critical thinking. (See, petty insults work BOTH ways, isn’t that amazing?) lol

I saw your original comment before the edit.

But sure, let’s have this conversation.

I’m fairly certain you’re garnering the downdings you’re collecting because of the dismissive attitude you have towards anyone’s expression of faith, e.g., acting like a fundamentalist: anyone who believes differently than you do is an idiot.

16 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:15:04pm

re: #15 klys

I saw your original comment before the edit.

But sure, let’s have this conversation.

I’m fairly certain you’re garnering the downdings you’re collecting because of the dismissive attitude you have towards anyone’s expression of faith, e.g., acting like a fundamentalist: anyone who believes differently than you do is an idiot.

You presume a lot. Perhaps you should get past the prejudices that cause you you to do that.

There is nothing more beautiful than a young person learning to think for themselves and challenge the faith they were raised with, especially when it’s a fundamentalist dingbat version like this fictional character’s family apparently is. This BS isn’t doing much for the favor of actual moderate Muslims.

17 klys  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:24:02pm

re: #16 SidewaysQuark

You presume a lot. Perhaps you should get past the prejudices that cause you you to do that.

There is nothing more beautiful than a young person learning to think for themselves and challenge the faith they were raised with, especially when it’s a fundamentalist dingbat version like this fictional character’s family apparently is. This BS isn’t doing much for the favor of actual moderate Muslims.

However, that isn’t what you said. This is:

Great, so her family are fundamentalist weirdos. Hopefully the story shows her evolving away from her roots and becoming an atheist.

If you don’t see the difference between those two statements where a lot of other people would read a difference between the two, then the issue is probably not with everyone else.

18 CuriousLurker  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:29:03pm

re: #15 klys

I saw your original comment before the edit.

Indeed.

19 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:31:30pm
20 klys  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:32:24pm

re: #19 SidewaysQuark

Fundamentalist scum is just as accurate. It’s an accurate descriptor for such filth.

In that case, why did you edit it?

21 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:40:07pm
22 klys  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:45:33pm

re: #21 SidewaysQuark

Thought the edit sounded more interesting. Why did you downding it? Do you approve of mothers thinking “touching someone” gets them pregnant? Do you love religious conservatism? Sounds extremely messed up to me.

Again, would be nice if the story shows her coming to her senses and becoming an atheist to leave her BS “family values” behind.

What was that about presuming?

I thought someone said something about prejudices leading to presumptions…

I downdinged because your comments treat all folks who practice a religion in the same category as fundamentalists, per your advocacy that she “comes to her senses and becomes an atheist,” with the added implication that “family values” from a religion are bullshit.

If you mean something else, please feel free to clarify.

23 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 9:53:49pm

re: #22 klys

What was that about presuming?

I thought someone said something about prejudices leading to presumptions…

I downdinged because your comments treat all folks who practice a religion in the same category as fundamentalists, per your advocacy that she “comes to her senses and becomes an atheist,” with the added implication that “family values” from a religion are bullshit.

If you mean something else, please feel free to clarify.

Seriously? Wow. I guess you think treating female bodies like property is ok as long as it’s “religious family values” from another “culture”.

Nope, every assumption you make about my posts is correct, only you and the other members of the downding patrol are apparently too daft to see why religious fundamentalism in any form is complete crap. Values should be based on reason, not mythology. This isn’t rocket surgery here.

24 klys  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 10:06:20pm

re: #23 SidewaysQuark

Seriously? Wow. I guess you think treating female bodies like property is ok as long as it’s “religious family values” from another “culture”.

Nope, every assumption you make about my posts is correct, only you and the other members of the downding patrol are apparently too daft to see why religious fundamentalism in any form is complete crap. Values should be based on reason, not mythology. This isn’t rocket surgery here.

Pretty clear you aren’t actually interested in discussion, although it’s nice to see you honestly admit that you see no difference at all between moderate folks and religious fundamentalists. You have a lot more in common with the latter category than you seem to realize.

Thanks and have a good night.

25 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Nov 5, 2013 10:14:24pm

re: #24 klys

Pretty clear you aren’t actually interested in discussion, although it’s nice to see you honestly admit that you see no difference at all between moderate folks and religious fundamentalists. You have a lot more in common with the latter category than you seem to realize.

Thanks and have a good night.

Thanks for clarifying your poor reading skills, because you apparently don’t understand a word I said. Have a good night.

26 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 4:11:28am

re: #25 SidewaysQuark

What positive effect do you think would come from showing her become atheist? Obviously, the storyline is going to have her differing from fundamentalism, so why isn’t that enough for you?

27 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 4:27:56am

re: #21 SidewaysQuark

Thought the edit sounded more interesting. Why did you downding it? Do you approve of mothers thinking “touching someone” gets them pregnant? Do you love religious conservatism? Sounds extremely messed up to me.

Again, would be nice if the story shows her coming to her senses and becoming an atheist to leave her BS “family values” behind.

Dude, it’s a comic book, about somebody with super powers. You sound like Pamela.

28 jamesfirecat  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 4:35:11am

Just to spell out why I downding, if you can’t see how the idea of having someone who grew up with the more extreme views of a culture/religion in their family decides the best thing to do sis to leave said culture/religion entirely happens to be a massive insult to that religion /culture, then it don’t know what to tell you.


If I had to come up with some kind of an analogy, well here goes…

Let’s assume sexuality is a choice.

I don’t think it is but lets assume it is as much a choice as religion in this particular case.


A character grows up in an extremely promiscuous bisexual family who is into a lot of extremely strange stuff sexually. This convinces the character to become completely monogamous only using the missionary position straight.


A Muslim character deciding to become an atheist just rather than embracing a more moderate view of her faith due to her family’s extremism is throwing the baby out with the bath water.


Also once again it needs to be argued how “rational” a point of view is atheism in a universe where we know for an observable, testable, repeatable fact that Thor (and the rest of the Asgardian pantheon) exist?

29 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:31:58am

re: #26 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

What positive effect do you think would come from showing her become atheist? Obviously, the storyline is going to have her differing from fundamentalism, so why isn’t that enough for you?

Because, duh, not believing in total nonsense is better than believing in total nonsense. Once again, it ain’t rocket surgery.

30 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:32:44am

re: #27 Vicious Babushka

Dude, it’s a comic book, about somebody with super powers. You sound like Pamela.

You’re vociferously defending fictional fundamentalists. To stay with the comic book theme, you sound like Bizarro-Pamela.

Not everyone who is as critical of Islam as they are of other religions and cults is an “Islamophobe”. Don’t be silly.

31 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:36:03am

re: #28 jamesfirecat

Just to spell out why I downding, if you can’t see how the idea of having someone who grew up with the more extreme views of a culture/religion in their family decides the best thing to do sis to leave said culture/religion entirely happens to be a massive insult to that religion /culture, then it don’t know what to tell you.

If a culture/religion can’t handle someone leaving it based on a change of conscience and consideration of facts, than said culture/religion highly deserves to be insulted. If you can’t understand that simple fact, then I don’t know what to tell you.

A lot of the rest of your post is silly since sexuality is not a choice and religion is. Then there’s this:

Also once again it needs to be argued how “rational” a point of view is atheism in a universe where we know for an observable, testable, repeatable fact that Thor (and the rest of the Asgardian pantheon) exist?

In a universe where the Asgardian pantheon exists, Islam, which claims strict monotheism, would be even more ridiculous than in the real universe, now, wouldn’t it?

32 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:38:23am

re: #25 SidewaysQuark

Fling an insult, get a downding.

33 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:42:13am

re: #31 SidewaysQuark

If a culture/religion can’t handle someone leaving it based on a change of conscience and consideration of facts, than said culture/religion highly deserves to be insulted. If you can’t understand that simple fact, then I don’t know what to tell you.

A lot of the rest of your post is silly since sexuality is not a choice and religion is. Then there’s this:

In a universe where the Asgardian pantheon exists, Islam, which claims strict monotheism, would be even more ridiculous than in the real universe, now, wouldn’t it?

So would Christianity and Judaism, BTW. But thankfully we don’t live in such a universe.

34 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:45:22am

re: #33 Dark_Falcon

So would Christianity and Judaism, BTW. But thankfully we don’t live in such a universe.

Yes, I’m glad we don’t live in a universe with personal gods, too, whether they be the monotheistic tyrants of the Abrahamic faiths, or the polytheistic pantheons of mythological fiction.

35 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:47:44am

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

Fling an insult, get a downding.

Well, when people start lobbing insults at me for no valid reason, I’m not sure why they would expect a kind response. As for the downdings, well, it’ll be difficult, but I’m pretty sure I can move on.

36 jamesfirecat  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:50:26am

re: #31 SidewaysQuark

If a culture/religion can’t handle someone leaving it based on a change of conscience and consideration of facts, than said culture/religion highly deserves to be insulted. If you can’t understand that simple fact, then I don’t know what to tell you.

A lot of the rest of your post is silly since sexuality is not a choice and religion is. Then there’s this:

In a universe where the Asgardian pantheon exists, Islam, which claims strict monotheism, would be even more ridiculous than in the real universe, now, wouldn’t it?

But you didn’t say she should just give up being a Muslim, you said she should become an “atheist” would you be willing to admit that arguably it is more “rational” to be a worshiper of Thor/Odin/ some other god who can be proven to exist beyond a shadow of a doubt in that particular universe than to be an atheist?

37 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:51:47am

re: #10 SidewaysQuark

Great, so her family are fundamentalist weirdos. Hopefully the story shows her evolving away from her roots and becoming an atheist.

From a practical standpoint, the editors of the comic would like people to buy the book. If they have the girl reject her religion and become an atheist, it would alienate many readers, including, say, young Muslimas. Then, the title would disappear into comic book oblivion.

Second, just because you reject religion does not mean the whole fucking world has to agree with you, much less Marvel Comics. Also, if you have paid attention to comic books for the last bazillion years, they typically avoid explicit discussions of Christianity, Islam and Judaism, and atheism. Whatever gods and goddesses exist in the DC and Marvel universes are drawn from the Norse, Greek and Roman pantheons. Why? Because the publishers don’t want to piss off anyone, thereby losing readers. No one today is going to be offended by a book invoking Thor. There might be people offended if a hero were modeled after Joshua, complete with a superpowered trumpet.

In a sense, comics are quasi-atheistic, because they seldom mention God by name and the characters are usually not overtly religious. Some titles do presuppose higher powers (The Spectre, for one), but you should remember that comics are FICTION. They are not supposed to be realistic. Moreover, if you want to be consistent, you might as well condemn most of Western lterature since Beowulf for being religious.

38 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:53:32am

re: #36 jamesfirecat

But you didn’t say she should just give up being a Muslim, you said she should become an “atheist” would you be willing to admit that arguably it is more “rational” to be a worshiper of Thor/Odin/ some other god who can be proven to exist beyond a shadow of a doubt in that particular universe than to be an atheist?

Actually, I said it would be a good storyline more than it’s something that she “should” do (it’s a fictional character), but sure, obviously they’re superheroes whose presence can be rationally explained and not real “gods”.

39 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:55:29am

re: #37 wheat-dogghazi

From a practical standpoint, the editors of the comic would like people to buy the book. If they have the girl reject her religion and become an atheist, it would alienate many readers, including, say, young Muslimas. Then, the title would disappear into comic book oblivion.

Second, just because you reject religion does not mean the whole fucking world has to agree with you, much less Marvel Comics. Also, if you have paid attention to comic books for the last bazillion years, they typically avoid explicit discussions of Christianity, Islam and Judaism, and atheism. Whatever gods and goddesses exist in the DC and Marvel universes are drawn from the Norse, Greek and Roman pantheons. Why? Because the publishers don’t want to piss off anyone, thereby losing readers. No one today is going to be offended by a book invoking Thor. There might be people offended if a hero were modeled after Joshua, complete with a superpowered trumpet.

In a sense, comics are quasi-atheistic, because they seldom mention God by name and the characters are usually not overtly religious. Some titles do presuppose higher powers (The Spectre, for one), but you should remember that comics are FICTION. They are not supposed to be realistic. Moreover, if you want to be consistent, you might as well condemn most of Western lterature since Beowulf for being religious.

On the contrary, there’s no such thing as bad publicity. Pissing people off is a great way to sell obscure stories. It worked well for “The Last Temptation of Christ”, a great film that probably would have otherwise been totally obscure if it hadn’t riled fundie ire.

And frankly, if people find someone leaving their faith and becoming an atheist offensive, they deserve to be offended.

40 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:59:25am

re: #37 wheat-dogghazi

…snip. Moreover, if you want to be consistent, you might as well condemn most of Western lterature since Beowulf for being religious.

You read the Divine Comedy for the laughs, didn’t you?

41 theheat  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:01:24am

I’m not understanding the argument for the character to become an atheist instead of remaining a Muslim with some social glitches I think a lot of people can identify with. Lots of people have kind of difficult, backwards, parents or relatives that mean well but are a PITA - and being Muslim to have these kinds of relatives is definitely not a requirement.

I think it’s a neat idea for a character. It might not fit everyone’s idea of what she should be, but I think it was a bold move, and it leaves a lot of latitude for her to evolve whichever way the writers decide to go with her.

42 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:05:26am

re: #39 SidewaysQuark

But its not just the fundamentalists you’d be attacking. You’d be attacking Islam in general and Muslims would rightly feel insulted.

43 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:27:30am

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

But its not just the fundamentalists you’d be attacking. You’d be attacking Islam in general and Muslims would rightly feel insulted.

Tell me, if my idea was flipped, and it was about a non-believer converting to Islam, would you (or anyone else here) think non-belief was being “insulted”?

Weird double-standard people have here.

44 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:28:42am

re: #41 theheat

I think it’s a neat idea for a character. It might not fit everyone’s idea of what she should be, but I think it was a bold move, and it leaves a lot of latitude for her to evolve whichever way the writers decide to go with her.

Sure. Totally shedding one’s belief in their supernatural deity of choice is just as viable a storyline.

45 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:31:13am

re: #44 SidewaysQuark

Sure. Totally shedding one’s belief in their supernatural deity of choice is just as viable a storyline.

But it would not be a storyline liked by most Americans, who do believe in a deity. Commercial story-telling must tell stories its audience is willing to listen to if it is to make money.

46 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:38:34am

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

But it would not be a storyline liked by most Americans, who do believe in a deity. Commercial story-telling must tell stories its audience is willing to listen to if it is to make money.

Like I said, when it comes to non-mainstream forms of entertainment, there’s no such thing as bad publicity.

But whether it would be “popular” or not is not the issue here, it’s whether or not it is reasonable. Would it be just as “offensive” to have a storyline about a non-believer who finds their way to Islam/Christianity/Buddhism/Scientology/Thor-worship etc. as the other way around? If not, I’d like a sound explanation for the double standard.

47 jamesfirecat  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:43:57am

re: #43 SidewaysQuark

Tell me, if my idea was flipped, and it was about a non-believer converting to Islam, would you (or anyone else here) think non-belief was being “insulted”?

Weird double-standard people have here.

A kid grows up in a family that passionately speaks all the time about how people who believe in god are idiots and that only reasonable people who deny his/he/its existence are fit to be trusted with anything important leading to their daughter getting so pissed at them she decides to convert to Islam….


Yeah as an agnostic I would find that offensive since in my mind the more logical action isn’t “change your belief system because people who share it with you are idiots/jerks” it’s “be the best most enjoyable representation possible of whatever it is you believe is true.”

It’s offensive because it’s using characters to represent the worst facets of a group of people who exist, and then by having the hero decide to give up on that group entirely rather than being an internal reformist suggest that the worst facets in effect represent the entire group rather than just an extremist faction of it.

48 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:47:31am

re: #29 SidewaysQuark

Because, duh, not believing in total nonsense is better than believing in total nonsense. Once again, it ain’t rocket surgery.

So you’re really saying that every fictional work should portray only atheists or people becoming atheists? At least for the ‘heroes”?

49 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:48:44am

re: #48 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

So you’re really saying that every fictional work should portray only atheists or people becoming atheists? At least for the ‘heroes”?

Nope. I’m saying you shouldn’t find it “offensive” on the rare occasions they do.

50 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:50:57am

re: #49 SidewaysQuark

Nope. I’m saying you shouldn’t find it “offensive” on the rare occasions they do.

No, you’re saying a lot more than that. You said;

Hopefully the story shows her evolving away from her roots and becoming an atheist.

That was your initial comment.

So is there something particular about this story that means you hope that (and, as James has pointed out, in a world with magic and gods, atheism is an irrational stance) or is that something you hope for all stories?

51 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:51:51am

re: #49 SidewaysQuark

You missed the point. Again.

Being offended by a negative depiction of one’s faith is not the same thing as being offended because someone else believes something else.

52 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:53:43am

re: #47 jamesfirecat

A kid grows up in a family that passionately speaks all the time about how people who believe in god are idiots and that only reasonable people who deny his/he/its existence are fit to be trusted with anything important leading to their daughter getting so pissed at them she decides to convert to Islam….

Yeah as an agnostic I would find that offensive since in my mind the more logical action isn’t “change your belief system because people who share it with you are idiots/jerks” it’s “be the best most enjoyable representation possible of whatever it is you believe is true.”

I wouldn’t find it offensive at all. Just a story of rebellion and irony in a fictional universe, and someone sticking to someone who deserves a philosophical smackdown. It would even be a good lesson.

I’m glad someone’s finally agreeing that this girl’s family is being depicted as fundie lunatics, though.

It’s offensive because it’s using characters to represent the worst facets of by group of people who exist, and then by having the hero decide to give up on that group entirely rather than being an internal reformist suggest that the worst facets in effect represent the entire group up rather than just an extremist faction of it.

Good entertainment is frequently offensive to many people. See “South Park”. In fact, once people become too afraid to offend anybody, good entertainment goes down the toilet. People really need to stop the sanctimonious PC BS around here.

53 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:55:36am

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

You missed the point. Again.

Being offended by a negative depiction of one’s faith is not the same thing as being offended because someone else believes something else.

No, you missed the point. Again. You’re just trying to dodge the question and the obvious double standard posited.

If someone is offended by someone leaving their faith, they have a serious problem. And if someone can’t see this girl’s family is being portrayed as fundie loons, they are seriously blind.

54 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 8:56:40am

re: #50 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

No, you’re saying a lot more than that. You said;

That was your initial comment.

So is there something particular about this story that means you hope that (and, as James has pointed out, in a world with magic and gods, atheism is an irrational stance) or is that something you hope for all stories?

It’s a general hope for all stories that show someone being enveloped and brainwashed by fundamentalist loons, yes. Why is that a problem?

55 jamesfirecat  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:00:44am

re: #52 SidewaysQuark

I wouldn’t find it offensive at all. Just a story of rebellion and irony in a fictional universe, and someone sticking to someone who deserves a philosophical smackdown. It would even be a good lesson.

I’m glad someone’s finally agreeing that this girl’s family is being depicted as fundie lunatics, though.

Good entertainment is frequently offensive to many people. See “South Park”. In fact, once people become too afraid to offend anybody, good entertainment goes down the toilet. People really need to stop the sanctimonious PC BS around here.

I never found South Park funny and I don’t see anything entertaining about offending an entire religion/belief system through what amounts to a straw man argument by taking the worst aspects of a given group and pretending they are the rule rather than the exception.

To each his own I guess.

56 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:04:47am

re: #54 SidewaysQuark

It’s a general hope for all stories that show someone being enveloped and brainwashed by fundamentalist loons, yes. Why is that a problem?

Well, first of all it’s a problem because it’s an attempt to distort reality. Many people who are raised in those circumstances simply become ‘fundamentalist’ themselves; presenting it as an inevitable escape is extremely divergent from what reality is.

Second of all, it’s a problem because you know the ‘end’ that you want to reach: the characters must become atheists. Why, if your problem is really with the fundamentalist aspect, would it not be sufficient for the person to remain religious but not ‘fundamentalist’? I think that you’re confusing your general dislike for all religion with your dislike for ‘fundamentalist’ religion. So if this person simply became a ‘moderate’ Muslim, but still a believer, why isn’t that good for you?

It seems to be that you’re asserting two things: One, that narratives that diverge from reality and show religious people inevitably reaching atheism are a good thing— I assume this is for propaganda purposes, but I doubt the efficacy of it as such. Second, you have a muddy and confused assertion that combines fundamentalism and general religion— you assert that some forms of religion are ‘brainwashing’.

Finally, you haven’t addressed the biggest problem: In the Marvel world, being an atheist is the irrational, lunatic position. In that world, gods exist, magic exists, they are demonstrable and provable. In that world, the supernatural is a real thing, and being an atheist and disbelieving in reality would be rejection of empirical evidence.

57 jamesfirecat  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:04:51am

re: #53 SidewaysQuark

No, you missed the point. Again. You’re just trying to dodge the question and the obvious double standard posited.

If someone is offended by someone leaving their faith, they have a serious problem. And if someone can’t see this girl’s family is being portrayed as fundie loons, they are seriously blind.

I’ll say it one last time,

The problem is not with the idea of portraying the girls family as fundie loons/people who fall into more extreme versions of their belief system.

I wouldn’t even be the first time Marvel has done something like this as I recall at one point they had members of an antigovernment militia holding up signs which were word for word copies of sings brought to tea party events.

The problem is having these people drive her completely away from the religion itself since this argues these extremists represent the entire religion.

I would not be complaining if you were arguing that she should end up falling in with a group of more moderate Muslims which would show that yes while extremists exists, they are not the only type of Muslims in the world.

58 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:05:08am

re: #53 SidewaysQuark

No, you missed the point. Again. You’re just trying to dodge the question and the obvious double standard posited.

If someone is offended by someone leaving their faith, they have a serious problem. And if someone can’t see this girl’s family is being portrayed as fundie loons, they are seriously blind.

Kamala will face struggles outside her own head, including conflicts close to home. “Her brother is extremely conservative,” Ms. Amanat said. “Her mom is paranoid that she’s going to touch a boy and get pregnant. Her father wants her to concentrate on her studies and become a doctor.” Next to those challenges, fighting supervillains may be a welcome respite.

A father who wants his daughter to study and become a doctor is not a Islamic fundamentalist. And a mother’s being concerned about her daughter getting pregnant out of wedlock is not a fundamentalist concern. Keep your facts straight.

59 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:07:51am

re: #52 SidewaysQuark

People really need to stop the sanctimonious PC BS around here.

I’ll take my sanctimonious PC BS over your being a jerk who think religious people deserve to be offended any day.

60 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:20:21am

re: #59 wrenchwench

I’ll take my sanctimonious PC BS over your being a jerk who think religious people deserve to be offended any day.

Westboro atheist. //

61 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:28:13am

I do think, however, that Marvel and the rest of the comic book worlds don’t do enough to portray the societal change that would come from having superheroes, with religions being one of the most strongly affected. The existence of those heroes— and villains— would have to become one of the dominant theological problems, especially in that some of them claim to be acting in the name of (various) gods, let alone the ones who claim to be gods. There are beings who certainly look like and claim to be angels and demons, as well, from various pantheons.

While I don’t think this would lead to an increase in atheism, the complete incoherence of the supernatural system in those worlds would change all theology profoundly, and while some fundamentalist religions might handle it with “They’re all tools of the devil”, that would be very fragile, like all such declarations.

62 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:23:18am

re: #59 wrenchwench

I’ll take my sanctimonious PC BS over your being a jerk who think religious people deserve to be offended any day.

Nope, you apparently fail at reading comprehension. I said I think people who are “offended” by religious people becoming atheists deserve to be offended, jerk. (I take it “jerk” is a term of endearment, because insulting people would be against site rules, and I know you wouldn’t do that.)

63 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:25:38am

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

A father who wants his daughter to study and become a doctor is >not a Islamic fundamentalist. And a mother’s being concerned about her daughter getting pregnant out of wedlock is not a fundamentalist concern. Keep your facts straight.

You don’t think “Her mom is paranoid that she’s going to touch a boy and get pregnant” doesn’t sound like wacko fundamentalism? Seriously? Yup, fundamentalism by any definition of the word. The kind that treats women’s bodies as inviolate property to protected from “depurification” at all costs. Disgusting stuff.

64 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:29:19am

re: #61 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I do think, however, that Marvel and the rest of the comic book worlds don’t do enough to portray the societal change that would come from having superheroes, with religions being one of the most strongly affected. The existence of those heroes— and villains— would have to become one of the dominant theological problems, especially in that some of them claim to be acting in the name of (various) gods, let alone the ones who claim to be gods. There are beings who certainly look like and claim to be angels and demons, as well, from various pantheons.

Perhaps a great story would be our hero, Kamala, traveling 1000 years into the future where all modern religions have inevitably devolved into mythology, like the Norse and Greek pantheons of the past have. There, she can find out Allah/Yahweh has degenerated in power into a flawed hero little different than Thor, and confront the reality of her faith.

Since it’s set in the future where Allah/Yahweh is myth, much like Thor is today, it wouldn’t be offensive to anyone. Right?

65 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:35:03am

re: #62 SidewaysQuark

Nope, you apparently fail at reading comprehension. I said I think people who are “offended” by religious people becoming atheists deserve to be offended, jerk. (I take it “jerk” is a term of endearment, because insulting people would be against site rules, and I know you wouldn’t do that.)

Your comment history shows my initial statement to be correct.

(I take it “jerk” is a term of endearment, because insulting people would be against site rules, and I know you wouldn’t do that.)

Citation needed.

66 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:36:31am

re: #64 SidewaysQuark

Perhaps a great story would be our hero, Kamala, traveling 1000 years into the future where all modern religions have inevitably devolved into mythology, like the Norse and Greek pantheons of the past have. There, she can find out Allah/Yahweh has degenerated in power into a flawed hero little different than Thor, and confront the reality of her faith.

Since it’s set in the future where Allah/Yahweh is myth, much like Thor is today, it wouldn’t be offensive to anyone. Right?

That was a South Park episode, where Cartman travels into the future and all religions have been abolished and various factions of atheists rule.

67 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:36:47am

re: #63 SidewaysQuark

You don’t think “Her mom is paranoid that she’s going to touch a boy and get pregnant” doesn’t sound like wacko fundamentalism? Seriously? Yup, fundamentalism by any definition of the word. The kind that treats women’s bodies as inviolate property to protected from “depurification” at all costs. Disgusting stuff.

You don’t have any close friends with teenage or young adult daughters, and you didn’t have a sister, that’s what I’d bet. Concern about a daughter getting pregnant at the wrong time is only partly about purity; It is also about a mother not wanting her daughter to close off options in life because she had a child before she was ready. It’s also about that same mother wanting her future grandchildren to have the best chances they can, which means waiting till her daughter has established herself.

Those aren’t fundamentalist concerns. Granted, it looks like the mother is going to be shown taking those concerns overboard, but that is something mothers of many faiths sometimes do. People can be irrational for non-religious and non-malicious reasons, after all.

68 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:39:57am

re: #62 SidewaysQuark

That remark earned you this:

Youtube Video

69 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:42:24am

re: #65 wrenchwench

Your comment history shows my initial statement to be correct.

Citation needed.

Yup, I find religious myths ridiculous. Oooo I’m busted! lol

Now, make a good case that that’s a bad thing to do, and you’ll be on your way to making a rational argument, rather than a weak invective and desperate appeal to populism.

70 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:43:09am

re: #66 Vicious Babushka

That was a South Park episode, where Cartman travels into the future and all religions have been abolished and various factions of atheists rule.

See, nothing too offensive about it.

71 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:44:22am

re: #70 SidewaysQuark

See, nothing too offensive about it.

They portray Richard Dawkins as a transphobic asshole.

72 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:44:28am

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

That remark earned you this:

[Embedded content]

That means so much coming from Dark Falcon the Downding King. lol

73 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:46:11am

re: #64 SidewaysQuark

Perhaps a great story would be our hero, Kamala, traveling 1000 years into the future where all modern religions have inevitably devolved into mythology, like the Norse and Greek pantheons of the past have.

Why are you assuming that modern religions will inevitably devolve into mythology? That’s a strange assumption, since the growth of irreligion has been relatively modest, and religions as ancient as the Norse and Greek have not died out (Judaism, for one).

There, she can find out Allah/Yahweh has degenerated in power into a flawed hero little different than Thor, and confront the reality of her faith.

I’m sorry, I can’t really tell what you’re saying here. The ‘reality’ of her faith, in the Marvel universe, would be the existence of a supernatural being, but the existence of other supernatural beings, too, right?

Since it’s set in the future where Allah/Yahweh is myth, much like Thor is today, it wouldn’t be offensive to anyone. Right?

But… we’re talking about the Marvel universe, where Thor is a reality, not a myth.

Your argument here is terribly confused, you seem to keep talking about the Marvel universe as though it’s our universe.

74 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:46:56am

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

You don’t have any close friends with teenage or young adult daughters, and you didn’t have a sister, that’s what I’d bet. Concern about a daughter getting pregnant at the wrong time is only partly about purity; It is also about a mother not wanting her daughter to close off options in life because she had a child before she was ready. It’s also about that same mother wanting her future grandchildren to have the best chances they can, which means waiting till her daughter has established herself.

Those aren’t fundamentalist concerns. Granted, it looks like the mother is going to be shown taking those concerns overboard, but that is something mothers of many faiths sometimes do. People can be irrational for non-religious and non-malicious reasons, after all.

Nope, nope. Allow me to print the quote again.

“Her mom is paranoid that she’s going to touch a boy and get pregnant”

Seriously, if that’s the way your “close friends with teenage or young adult daughters” feel, you’re hanging out with some real weirdos. I hope their daughters rebel, too.

75 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:47:16am

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

You don’t have any close friends with teenage or young adult daughters, and you didn’t have a sister, that’s what I’d bet. Concern about a daughter getting pregnant at the wrong time is only partly about purity; It is also about a mother not wanting her daughter to close off options in life because she had a child before she was ready.

To be fair, getting pregnant at the wrong time only closes off options if you also have an irrational belief that abortion is not allowed.

76 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:50:43am

re: #73 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Why are you assuming that modern religions will inevitably devolve into mythology? That’s a strange assumption, since the growth of irreligion has been relatively modest, and religions as ancient as the Norse and Greek have not died out (Judaism, for one).

Nope, it’s a normal assumption. All religions have died over a period of thousands of years. Not saying they won’t be replaced with others; seems humans are hard-wired for irrational woo. (There is the unprecedented red herring of technological advancement, though, which could, in the long term, wipe out superstition entirely, but that’s another conversation.)

I’m sorry, I can’t really tell what you’re saying here. The ‘reality’ of her faith, in the Marvel universe, would be the existence of a supernatural being, but the existence of other supernatural beings, too, right?

But… we’re talking about the Marvel universe, where Thor is a reality, not a myth.

Your argument here is terribly confused, you seem to keep talking about the Marvel universe as though it’s our universe.

So she has a “fake kind of Marvel-Islam” where polytheism is accepted? You’re the one positing a terribly confusing scenario. How is that even Islam? I would think when someone finds out that someone they’ve been worshiping is just one of Thor’s buddies it would put a serious damper on their faith, unless they actually are nuts….

77 b_sharp  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:54:04am

re: #76 SidewaysQuark

Nope, it’s a normal assumption. All religions have died over a period of thousands of years. Not saying they won’t be replaced with others; seems humans are hard-wired for irrational woo. (There is the unprecedented red herring of technological advancement, though, which could, in the long term, wipe out superstition entirely, but that’s another conversation.)

So she has a “fake kind of Marvel-Islam” where polytheism is accepted? You’re the one positing a terribly confusing scenario. How is that even Islam? I would think when someone finds out that someone they’ve been worshiping is just one of Thor’s buddies it would put a serious damper on their faith, unless they actually are nuts….

Trouble is, Thor actually exists in that world.

78 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:56:15am

re: #69 SidewaysQuark

Yup, I find religious myths ridiculous. Oooo I’m busted! lol

Now, make a good case that that’s a bad thing to do, and you’ll be on your way to making a rational argument, rather than a weak invective and desperate appeal to populism.

My rational argument is that you’re being a jerk.

79 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 10:58:11am

re: #76 SidewaysQuark

Nope, it’s a normal assumption. All religions have died over a period of thousands of years.

This is not true. I’m not sure why you believe it to be true. Judaism has survived thousands of years, Hinduism has survived thousands of years, Buddhism has survived more than two milennia. That you are simply factually wrong about this should cause you to reexamine your argument.

So she has a “fake kind of Marvel-Islam” where polytheism is accepted?

Islam and CHristianity are basically polytheistic already; demons, angels, and in the case of Islam, Jinns all exist and have supernatural powers. Very quickly you could make the argument that those these other beings have godly power, they are not the one true god because they don’t have that god’s moral or ethical character or they will not sit in judgement or they are not the creators/destroyers of the universe, all of which are basic remakes of existing theology.

How is that even Islam?

Because it’s a continuation of the faith of “Islam” after responding to problems for that faith in the world.

I would think when someone finds out that someone they’ve been worshiping is just one of Thor’s buddies it would put a serious damper on their faith, unless they actually are nuts….

But Allah would not just be one of Thor’s buddies. In the Marvel universe, the Abrahamic God doesn’t directly manifest, but its power seems to be observable through the actions of angels. All three abrahamic religions accept angels as the workers of god, angels exist, so again, this point of yours is a complete abdication of the reality.

80 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:01:10am

re: #76 SidewaysQuark

A lot of your argument rests on this very bizarre claim that in the Marvel universe, atheism makes sense. Can you please acknowledge that atheism makes no sense at all in the context of the Marvel universe, where supernatural phenomena are observable and verifiable?

81 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:01:30am

re: #78 wrenchwench

My rational argument is that you’re being a jerk.

Your rage blinds your rationality. Perhaps you should take a nice warm bath with candles and have a glass of wine.

82 b_sharp  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:01:57am

How many movies, books, plays, TV shows, comics have had faith, the ability to accept the improbable without physical evidence as a virtue? Belief in Santa, God, Tooth fairies have all been put forward in movies as reasons to ‘believe’ and that belief will bring happiness and satisfaction. TV shows have had atheists find God after getting over their anger at him.

I for one would like to see a media character move away from religion to find that atheists can be as happy as theists, without having to suspend their disbelief for once.

83 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:03:11am

re: #80 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

A lot of your argument rests on this very bizarre claim that in the Marvel universe, atheism makes sense. Can you please acknowledge that atheism makes no sense at all in the context of the Marvel universe, where supernatural phenomena are observable and verifiable?

Are you saying it makes sense to worship guys like Thor you can hang out with? Why would atheism “make no sense” in that universe? Has Marvel provided evidence that their evidently supernatural phenomena can’t be explained by scientific means that just happen to be out of reach of its denizens?

84 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:03:33am

In fact, the Jinn, being supernatural agents not bound to polar morality (not necessarily serving or defying Allah), would provide Islam with the easiest explanation and reconciliation with the realities of Marvel universe.

85 Bubblehead II  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:04:22am

re: #81 SidewaysQuark

Your rage blinds your rationality. Perhaps you should take a nice warm bath with candles and have a glass of wine.

What the fuck? That has to be one of the most patronizing and misogynistic posts I’ve seen in a while.

86 b_sharp  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:05:28am

re: #81 SidewaysQuark

Your rage blinds your rationality. Perhaps you should take a nice warm bath with candles and have a glass of wine.

This is kind of jerky.

87 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:06:17am

re: #79 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

But Allah would not just be one of Thor’s buddies. In the Marvel universe, the Abrahamic God doesn’t directly manifest, but its power seems to be observable through the actions of angels. All three abrahamic religions accept angels as the workers of god, angels exist, so again, this point of yours is a complete abdication of the reality.

Well, I’m assuming 1000 years in the future, Allah loses his fan club, his angels depart to start their own lucrative worship businesses, God’s heaven gets run over by riffraff, he gets the boot, and he has to resort to fending off Galactus from eating planets with cloudblasts and thunderbolts, or something. Hey, could happen!

88 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:07:01am

re: #83 SidewaysQuark

Are you saying it makes sense to worship guys like Thor you can hang out with?

Absolutely. Why would the physical manifestation of a god make adulating them less likely?

Why would atheism “make no sense” in that universe?

Because atheism means the denial of the supernatural and gods, and the Marvel universe has supernatural abilities and gods.

Has Marvel provided evidence that their evidently supernatural phenomena can’t be explained by scientific means that just happen to be out of reach of its denizens?

I’m not sure what you’re asking here. The Marvel universe doesn’t have coherent physical laws even when it comes to technology. You seem to not be grasping, essentially, that the Marvel universe is a representation of a universe where there are no physical ‘laws’, they can change according to narrative necessity. The physical laws don’t remain constant.

89 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:07:07am

re: #85 Bubblehead II

What the fuck? That has to be one of the most patronizing and misogynistic posts I’ve seen in a while.

Sexism exists in the atheist community.

90 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:07:56am

re: #81 SidewaysQuark

Your rage blinds your rationality. Perhaps you should take a nice warm bath with candles and have a glass of wine.

Please take your fake concern and shove it up your ass.

91 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:08:26am

re: #89 Vicious Babushka

Sexism exists in the atheist community.

That’s funny, because I didn’t even know wrenchwrench was female.

Are you suggesting bubble baths, wine and candles are only for women? I for one won’t tolerate such sexism. Beat it.

92 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:09:19am

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

Please take your fake concern and shove it up your ass.

Look, I can see you’re obviously butthurt, but that doesn’t mean I want obtrusive things in my ass, too.

93 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:12:26am

re: #91 SidewaysQuark

That’s funny, because I didn’t even know wrenchwrench was female.

Are you suggesting bubble baths, wine and candles are only for women? I for one won’t tolerate such sexism. Beat it.

It’s wrenchWENCH. You might look up ‘wench’ some time.

Would you like another shovel?

94 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:13:08am

re: #87 SidewaysQuark

Well, I’m assuming 1000 years in the future, Allah loses his fan club, his angels depart to start their own lucrative worship businesses, God’s heaven gets run over by riffraff, he gets the boot, and he has to resort to fending off Galactus from eating planets with cloudblasts and thunderbolts, or something. Hey, could happen!

You’ve made a very, very large number of factual errors and mistakes in this argument.

One of the reasons I don’t like the term ‘atheist’ is because it’s highly incomplete, and it raises religion to an unnecessary status. There’s plenty of sources of received wisdom, of revealed truth, that aren’t religion. Furthermore, not believing in the supernatural doesn’t imbue any extra logical powers: you aren’t skeptical of your own argument. It’s a badly put-together mess, full of emotion and defensiveness, and in the end, it fails to grasp the essential problem: you’re analyzing an unreal universe where physical laws are not consistent. The only explanations that preserve scientific integrity are so improbable that they are the equivalent of belief in the supernatural.

Furthermore, you confuse your argument between fundamentalist and regular religion consistently, and allege insanity in worshipers. Neither of these are reality-based, and you should apply the same skepticism you apply to religion to your own arguments there. Are you arguing about fundamentalism, or are you treating all religion as fundamentalism? Decide what your stance is when making the argument, because this kind of seat of the pants, I’m too good for all of you argument is going to weaken the appeal of atheism to anyone reading it, because it is such a shitty argument.

95 Bubblehead II  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:13:58am

re: #91 SidewaysQuark

That’s funny, because I didn’t even know wrenchwrench was female.

Are you suggesting bubble baths, wine and candles are only for women? I for one won’t tolerate such sexism. Beat it.

And your full of shit. Intentionally misspelling her nic to cover that up just doesn’t cut it.. It’s Wrenchwench

96 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:14:36am

re: #95 Bubblehead II

And your full of shit. Intentionally misspelling her nic to cover that up just doesn’t cut it.. It’s Wrench>wench

Reading comprehension, he haz it not.

97 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:15:43am

re: #93 wrenchwench

It’s wrenchWENCH. You might look up ‘wench’ some time.

Would you like another shovel?

Well, since you’re flailing about trying to hit me on the head with one, yes, it might even us out.

98 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:16:33am

Gonna write a book about orcs and goblins and elves, but none of that ring bullshit.

99 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:16:51am

re: #97 SidewaysQuark

Well, since you’re flailing about trying to hit me on the head with one, yes, it might even us out.

You feel under attack? Que pobrecito.

100 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:17:46am

re: #95 Bubblehead II

And your full of shit. Intentionally misspelling her nic to cover that up just doesn’t cut it.. It’s Wrench>wench

Once again, I assume “full of shit” is a term of endearment, since insulting people is against site rules. So, you’re full of shit too! :-D

I wasn’t honestly paying much attention to her name. Assuming bubble baths and candles and wine are only for females is blatantly sexist; I can’t believe you’re supporting such misogynism. And with a name like Bubblehead, perhaps you should enjoy a bubble bath too.

101 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:18:40am

re: #99 wrenchwench

You feel under attack? Que pobrecito.

No, I feel more like I’m having my ankles nipped at by blind poodles, to be honest.

102 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:19:23am

re: #96 wrenchwench

Reading comprehension, he haz it not.

Funny, most of my remarks have been about others’ failures at reading comprehension, here. Oh well, I guess I overestimated the audience.

103 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:19:55am

re: #101 SidewaysQuark

No, I feel more like I’m having my ankles nipped at by blind poodles, to be honest.

Blind poodles with little shovels?

104 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:20:57am

re: #100 SidewaysQuark

since insulting people is against site rules.

Citation needed.

105 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:21:43am

re: #102 SidewaysQuark

Funny, most of my remarks have been about others’ failures at reading comprehension, here. Oh well, I guess I overestimated the audience.

Can you provide a coherent explanation why the Jinn couldn’t be used by Muslim clerics to explain the supernatural occurrences in the Marvel universe, and why the actual, observable existence of devils and angels wouldn’t actually strengthen the faith of followers of Abrahamic religions?

106 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:23:13am

re: #102 SidewaysQuark

Fnn, mstof m rmrks hv bn abt thrs’ flrs t rdng cmprhnsn, hr. h wll, gss vrstmtd th adnc.

The troll says what?

107 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:23:45am

re: #104 wrenchwench

Citation needed.

Do your own research, wrenchwrench.

108 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:24:20am

re: #107 SidewaysQuark

Do your own research, wrenchwrench.

Where? I can’t find something that only exists in your head.

109 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:25:02am

re: #105 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Can you provide a coherent explanation why the Jinn couldn’t be used by Muslim clerics to explain the supernatural occurrences in the Marvel universe, and why the actual, observable existence of devils and angels wouldn’t actually strengthen the faith of followers of Abrahamic religions?

Can you explain why, in the Marvel Universe, it wouldn’t be just as likely a twist that said Jinn wouldn’t just turn out to be sophisticated bio-engineered robots built by aliens from another dimension?

110 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:25:48am

re: #108 wrenchwench

Where? I can’t find something that only exists in your head.

I guess there’s no posting rules on LGF, then. In that case, insult away, and expect a similar return on your emotional investment.

111 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:26:27am

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

The troll says what?

No need to resort to emotional anger, my dark winged friend.

112 Bubblehead II  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:26:29am

re: #100 SidewaysQuark

Once again, I assume “full of shit” is a term of endearment, since insulting people is against site rules. So, you’re full of shit too! :-D

I wasn’t honestly paying much attention to her name. Assuming bubble baths and candles and wine are only for females is blatantly sexist; I can’t believe you’re supporting such misogynism. And with a name like Bubblehead, perhaps you should enjoy a bubble bath too.

Actually it’s not. Threatening or endorsing violence on the other is. Calling an asshole full of shit is perfectly acceptable. Exspecially when it is oh so blatant.

113 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:28:17am

re: #112 Bubblehead II

Actually it’s not. Threatening or endorsing violence on the other is. Calling an asshole full of shit is perfectly acceptable. Exspecially when it is oh so blatant.

Okay. Well, in that case, you’re an asshole who’s blatantly full of shit.

114 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:28:23am

re: #109 SidewaysQuark

Can you explain why, in the Marvel Universe, it wouldn’t be just as likely a twist that said Jinn wouldn’t just turn out to be sophisticated bio-engineered robots built by aliens from another dimension?

No, you’re not understanding what I’m asking. Jinn are, in Muslim tradition, not-very-well defined supernatural entities that exist on the supernatural plane but can physically manifest. As such, they could explain every single other supernatural entity, including mutants.

If you’re asking ‘why couldn’t there be a plot twist where it turns out Thor is a robot’, there could be. There could also be a plot twist where it turns out the whole universe is powered by the magical screams of a tortured pheonix.

You continue to treat the Marvel universe as though it is real. It is not. It is a narrative universe. Do you understand this?

115 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:29:33am

re: #114 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

No, you’re not understanding what I’m asking. Jinn are, in Muslim tradition, not-very-well defined supernatural entities that exist on the supernatural plane but can physically manifest. As such, they could explain every single other supernatural entity, including mutants.

If you’re asking ‘why couldn’t there be a plot twist where it turns out Thor is a robot’, there could be. There could also be a plot twist where it turns out the whole universe is powered by the magical screams of a tortured pheonix.

You continue to treat the Marvel universe as though it is real. It is not. It is a narrative universe.

Exactly. So I can make up a narrative where it’s perfectly reasonable for someone to generate atheistic causes to the supposed supernatural phenomena observed within.

116 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:33:53am

re: #113 SidewaysQuark

GAZE

Folks, please don’t feed the troll.

117 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:34:15am

re: #115 SidewaysQuark

Exactly. So I can make up a narrative where it’s perfectly reasonable for someone to generate atheistic causes to the supposed supernatural phenomena observed within.

If you mean that you, as an atheist, could make an explanation of the phenomena just as fallacious as the Muslim cleric, sure, but your explanation would be exactly as fallacious as his. This is actually a defeat of your argument: do you understand that? You just showed that in the Marvel universe, the atheist and the Muslim cleric are equal in their ability to coherently explain the world.

118 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:36:57am

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

GAZE

Folks, please don’t feed the troll.

Yup, label someone a troll when you can’t keep up. Typical evasion tactic.

119 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:37:39am

re: #118 SidewaysQuark

Yup, label someone a troll when you can’t keep up. Typical evasion tactic.

Image: 300px-Scouttaunt2.PNG

120 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:38:49am

re: #117 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

If you mean that you, as an atheist, could make an explanation of the phenomena just as fallacious as the Muslim cleric, sure, but your explanation would be exactly as fallacious as his. This is actually a defeat of your argument: do you understand that? You just showed that in the Marvel universe, the atheist and the Muslim cleric are equal in their ability to coherently explain the world.

Yes, exactly. That totally destroys the validity of Islam as a specific claim to “truth” in such a world, where any explanation is valid, no? Atheism makes no such specificity to its claims, it just says “I don’t know”. In a world of chaos, kind of makes it the default position, no?

121 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:40:49am

re: #119 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Image: 300px-Scouttaunt2.PNG

Fending off an angry mob on LGF with the same tactics thrown at you (and succeeding) is apparently “trollish” behavior. The dynamic here is interesting. This has been a great thread so far.

122 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:43:48am

re: #120 SidewaysQuark

Yes, exactly. That totally destroys the validity of Islam as a specific claim to “truth” in such a world, where any explanation is valid, no?

This is really bizarre. I am not understanding why you think that saying “I have an explanation that is not any better than the explanation you currently hold on a logical level” to a religious person would make them doubt anything. Can you elaborate?

Atheism makes no such specificity to its claims, it just says “I don’t know”. In a world of chaos, kind of makes it the default position, no?

Atheism says “There is no such thing as the supernatural” in a world where the supernatural is real, and an explanation that the supernatural is not real requires assuming more improbable things than that the supernatural is real.

To put it another way: The correct view of the Marvel universe is that it is being created, moment-to-moment, by an omnipotent creator. That is the reality of the universe: It is entirely intelligently designed, entirely depended on a creator. And yet you, somehow, think that atheism is rational in a universe that is literally created by a being with absolutely control over that universe.

Atheism, in that universe, would simply be one of a large number of wrong theories. It would be one of the worse of those theories, farthest from the truth. Islam would be a much closer explanation to reality.

123 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:45:04am

re: #121 SidewaysQuark

Fending off an angry mob on LGF with the same tactics thrown at you (and succeeding) is apparently “trollish” behavior. The dynamic here is interesting. This has been a great thread so far.

Your argument is shitty, your attitude sucks, and I really dislike that you’re an atheist like me because you make atheists look like people who can’t write a coherent argument, can’t admit when they’re wrong, and lack grace. Luckily, I know that the people you’re talking to aren’t the kind that make sweeping generalizations based on specific contacts, but if they were, you’d have just reaffirmed any religious person’s belief in atheists as jerks who don’t even follow their own rules of logic.

124 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:45:26am

re: #121 SidewaysQuark

So, you mock the beliefs and personalities of others and that makes the people take exception to that “an angry mob”? That’s a very dishonest characterization, but consistent with the behavior of a poster who is seeking a martyr cookie.

125 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:48:32am

re: #123 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Your argument is shitty, your attitude sucks, and I really dislike that you’re an atheist like me because you make atheists look like people who can’t write a coherent argument, can’t admit when they’re wrong, and lack grace. Luckily, I know that the people you’re talking to aren’t the kind that make sweeping generalizations based on specific contacts, but if they were, you’d have just reaffirmed any religious person’s belief in atheists as jerks who don’t even follow their own rules of logic.

That pretty much says it all. There’s probably a rule against that on this site.

126 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:49:28am

re: #122 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

This is really bizarre. I am not understanding why you think that saying “I have an explanation that is not any better than the explanation you currently hold on a logical level” to a religious person would make them doubt anything. Can you elaborate?

Atheism says “There is no such thing as the supernatural” in a world where the supernatural is real, and an explanation that the supernatural is not real requires assuming more improbable things than that the supernatural is real.

I’m not sure atheism says “There is no such thing as the supernatural”. Keep in mind lightning was once thought to be “supernatural”. Atheism more accurately says “the unknown have rational explanations.”

To put it another way: The correct view of the Marvel universe is that it is being created, moment-to-moment, by an omnipotent creator. That is the reality of the universe: It is entirely intelligently designed, entirely depended on a creator. And yet you, somehow, think that atheism is rational in a universe that is literally created by a being with absolutely control over that universe.

So, because the Marvel Universe is too complex to comprehend it means there’s no explanation except a Creator, which happens to be EXACTLY the same one chosen by a particular religion? There could be a myriad of other explanations. Use your imagination.

Atheism, in that universe, would simply be one of a large number of wrong theories. It would be one of the worse of those theories, farthest from the truth. Islam would be a much closer explanation to reality.

Like I said, in a world where Allah could suddenly one day show up as Thor’s buddy, I’m not sure how this reasoning works. Sounds just as likely to me that Allah has a dad in such a fictional world. Atheists don’t pretend such questions can be answered by mere speculation.

127 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:52:32am

re: #126 SidewaysQuark

I’m not sure atheism says “There is no such thing as the supernatural”. Keep in mind lightning was once thought to be “supernatural”. Atheism more accurately says “the unknown have rational explanations.”

No, that’s ‘skepticism’. If you’re claiming to be a skeptic, then you’re absolutely horrible at it.

So, because the Marvel Universe is too complex to comprehend it means there’s no explanation except a Creator, which happens to be EXACTLY the same one chosen by a particular religion? There could be a myriad of other explanations. Use your imagination.

No, dude. I mean the Marvel universe really is created by someone. As in, an intelligent force— the author— determines everything from within it. I think that a person inside it, who was able to observe physical laws changing, would be able to deduce they were in a reality where someone had absolute power to remake it.

Do you understand that the Marvel universe is, really, created? It is not a real place, it is an invention of people?

128 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:54:18am

re: #123 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Your argument is shitty, your attitude sucks,

Actually, my arguments have been pretty sound; you haven’t even really stepped up to the plate to try to comprehend them. In the spirit of reciprocity, I think your attitude sucks, too.

and I really dislike that you’re an atheist like me because you make atheists look like people who can’t write a coherent argument,

You saying so doesn’t make it so. I’ve done a pretty good job fending off the silly nonsense being posted by others here, in my opinion. You’ve made no case my opinion has an inferior vantage to yours.

…can’t admit when they’re wrong, and lack grace.

Okay, make the point that “lacking grace”, as narrowly defined by you, is a negative point, and you will be on your way to winning a rational argument.

Luckily, I know that the people you’re talking to aren’t the kind that make sweeping generalizations based on specific contacts, but if they were, you’d have just reaffirmed any religious person’s belief in atheists as jerks who don’t even follow their own rules of logic.

Please cite where I’ve blatantly defied a rule of logic. In fact, I’ve made an effort to make my points clear; I’m sorry if you’re failing to comprehend them. As for the opinions of others, let the chips fall where they may; I don’t feel I’m doing a service by pulling punches.

tl;dr: Sorry you can’t keep up.

129 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:01:14pm

re: #128 SidewaysQuark

Actually, my arguments have been pretty sound; you haven’t even really stepped up to the plate to try to comprehend them. In the spirit of reciprocity, I think your attitude sucks, too.

I’ve shown a number of places where you haven’t understood my arguments. Can you do the same with yours? At this point, I don’t think you’ve really got much of a coherent argument left standing, but feel free to give it an attempt.

Please cite where I’ve blatantly defied a rule of logic.

You said that believing, not based on any evidence whatsoever, that all the supernatural beings in the Marvel universe were actually engineered robots made sense as a more scientific assumption. Since there would be no evidence to believe that contention, there’s no way that this is any more than a random belief, not actually scientific or atheistic— especially if you define it as you do.

130 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:08:43pm

re: #129 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I’ve shown a number of places where you haven’t understood my arguments. Can you do the same with yours? At this point, I don’t think you’ve really got much of a coherent argument left standing, but feel free to give it an attempt.

Really, I get your arguments. They’re not that advanced - they’re basically the same load of bull Intelligent Design proponents used, just abstracted to the Marvel Universe. You seem to fail to understand that I’m arguing that even in a world with more mysteries in our own, it doesn’t mean there isn’t a potential logical explanation, and that making a specific claim as to the answer is hence an inherently inferior argument.

You said that believing, not based on any evidence whatsoever, that all the supernatural beings in the Marvel universe were actually engineered robots made sense as a more scientific assumption.

I thought it was pretty obvious I was inferring that to be one of an infinite number of hypothetical possibilities, not a probable explanation. Do you have a similar lack of understanding of this basic concept when applied to the real world, as well?

Since there would be no evidence to believe that contention, there’s no way that this is any more than a random belief, not actually scientific or atheistic— especially if you define it as you do.

Yes, that was the whole point. That Jinn were robots from another dimension or benevolent creations of “Allah” are equally possible in a universe where anything goes. Kind of takes away any reason to claim a specific faith in such a weird world. In that regard, it’s not much different than the real universe.

131 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:09:38pm

re: #130 SidewaysQuark

Really, I get your arguments. They’re not that advanced - they’re basically the same load of bull Intelligent Design proponents used, just abstracted to the Marvel Universe.

But the Marvel Universe is intelligently designed. How do you not understand this? That is the real, actual explanation for someone in the Marvel universe: Their universe is designed, and physical laws change and are unreliable.

132 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:16:53pm

re: #131 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

But the Marvel Universe is intelligently designed. How do you not understand this? That is the real, actual explanation for someone in the Marvel universe: Their universe is designed, and physical laws change and are unreliable.

What evidence is there that they’re not simply unaware of the true underlying mechanism? And what’s the proof it was “intelligently” designed?
What’s the proof that such a “designer” can be constrained by the description of Islamic, Christian, Buddhist or any other mythology?

In other words, such a declaration leaves open more questions than it answers. As such, it leaves the absence of a theism (i.e. atheism) as the default choice.

Funny that theists use the fact that “our universe has order” as supposed “evidence” of a God. Now you’re using the fact that “the Marvel universe has no order” as “evidence” of a God there. Convolute the “reasoning” enough, you can pretend to argue just about ANYTHING is an argument for “God”.

133 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:17:41pm

What kind of jerk answers a long comment, point by point, and ends with ‘tl;dr’?

134 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:18:47pm

re: #133 wrenchwench

What kind of jerk answers a long comment, point by point, and ends with ‘tl;dr’?

Well, jerk, it meant “just in case you found my comment too long to read”. Once again, it seems the abilities of inference of some here are pretty weak.

135 jamesfirecat  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:23:04pm

re: #132 SidewaysQuark

What evidence is there that they’re not simply unaware of the true underlying mechanism? And what’s the proof it was “intelligently” designed?
What’s the proof that such a “designer” can be constrained by the description of Islamic, Christian, Buddhist or any other mythology?

In other words, such a declaration leaves open more questions than it answers. As such, it leaves the absence of a theism (i.e. atheism) as the default choice.

Funny that theists use the fact that “our universe has order” as supposed “evidence” of a God. Now you’re using the fact that “the Marvel universe has no order” as “evidence” of a God there. Convolute the “reasoning” enough, you can pretend to argue just about ANYTHING is an argument for “God”.

It’s intelligently designed because there’s a guy in an office (or several guys/girls in several offices) writing what is going to happen next in the Marvel universe,

These human beings in our world intelligently (or untelligently if they feel like having Spider-Man go to their version of the devil to undo his marriage) design everything that happens in the Marvel universe.

Those human beings in our world determine everything that happens in the Marvel Universe.

If you have trouble understanding that/argue against it then we really are operating on different wavelengths.

136 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:25:18pm

re: #132 SidewaysQuark

What evidence is there that they’re not simply unaware of the true underlying mechanism? .

The underlying mechanism is that there is an author who creates it. That is the literal truth, and it is also the narrative truth in the universe.

What’s the proof that such a “designer” can be constrained by the description of Islamic, Christian, Buddhist or any other mythology?

He absolutely can’t. Not sure why you’re asking this.

In other words, such a declaration leaves open more questions than it answers. As such, it leaves the absence of a theism (i.e. atheism) as the default choice.

You haven’t in the least shown any new questions opened. What I am saying is that if you were in the Marvel universe, if you saw physical laws changing, often in concert with some narrative, the logical, skeptical assumption would be that you were in a reality that was controlled by some powerful being or beings who could affect that reality. It would not be rational to think that they were all engineered robots.

Funny that theists use the fact that “our universe has order” as supposed “evidence” of a God. Now you’re using the fact that “the Marvel universe has no order” as “evidence” of a God there. Convolute the “reasoning” enough, you can pretend to argue just about ANYTHING is an argument for “God”.

I didn’t say an evidence of a God.

Again, I really have to ask, do you get that the Marvel universe really is a created thing, that it is literally designed by humans?

137 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:28:16pm

Deadpool is Marvel, right? He’s probably the guy in the universe with the most accurate understanding of it.

138 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:30:26pm

re: #135 jamesfirecat

If you have trouble understanding that/argue against it then we really are operating on different wavelengths.

If you really think I don’t understand that Marvel comics are written by people then you’re obviously not keeping up.

139 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:35:34pm

re: #136 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

The underlying mechanism is that there is an author who creates it. That is the literal truth, and it is also the narrative truth in the universe.

And from the vantage point of the “Marvel Universe”, who created the creator? Do you lack the imagination to comprehend that hypothetical characters could have the imagination to wonder such things? After all, that’s the crux of the discussion, here.

He absolutely can’t. Not sure why you’re asking this.

You haven’t in the least shown any new questions opened. What I am saying is that if you were in the Marvel universe, if you saw physical laws changing, often in concert with some narrative, the logical, skeptical assumption would be that you were in a reality that was controlled by some powerful being or beings who could affect that reality. It would not be rational to think that they were all engineered robots.

Okay, I’ll try to slow down and explain this again. It’s no more or less rational for a denizen of the Marvel universe to think their supernatural beings are artificial robots than to think “Allah sent them”. Both are irrational, because both are unlikely to be true. Therefore, the default position is “I don’t know wtf the Jinn are.” Got it?

So be clear to me - is an orderly universe evidence for “intelligent design”, or is a disorderly universe evidence for “intelligent design”? You can’t have it both ways.

I didn’t say an evidence of a God.

Again, I really have to ask, do you get that the Marvel universe really is a created thing, that it is literally designed by humans?

No, I don’t think comic book universes are “real”. Yes, I realize humans write Marvel Comics - do I HAVE to explain that? I thought the point was that we were discussing it as if it was hypothetically real.

140 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:42:04pm

re: #139 SidewaysQuark

And from the vantage point of the “Marvel Universe”, who created the creator?

From their vantage point, that’s not an answerable question. They can reason their way towards his existence, but nothing else about his nature.

Do you lack the imagination to comprehend that hypothetical characters could have the imagination to wonder such things? After all, that’s the crux of the discussion, here.

Okay, I’ll try to slow down and explain this again. It’s no more or less rational for a denizen of the Marvel universe to think their supernatural beings are artificial robots than to think “Allah sent them”. Both are irrational, because both are unlikely to be true. Therefore, the default position is “I don’t know wtf the Jinn are.” Got it?

Yes. They’re both definitions that would satisfy people who are already predisposed to believe them, but not otherwise. The ‘atheist’ explanation you offered is not better than any religious explanation.

So be clear to me - is an orderly universe evidence for “intelligent design”, or is a disorderly universe evidence for “intelligent design”? You can’t have it both ways.

For me, as an atheist, an orderly universe is evidence for lack of design, because you can’t really have a disorderly universe that’s stable and remains in existence.

No, I don’t think comic book universes are “real”. Yes, I realize humans write Marvel Comics - do I HAVE to explain that? I thought the point was that we were discussing it as if it was hypothetically real.

You consistently are talking as though you’re not acknowledging that the Marvel universe is literally intelligently designed, or as though that is something that you don’t think would be discernible from inside that universe.

141 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 1:06:48pm

re: #140 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Yes. They’re both definitions that would satisfy people who are already predisposed to believe them, but not otherwise. The ‘atheist’ explanation you offered is not better than any religious explanation.

No, you’re not getting it. The ‘atheist’ position is “I don’t know wtf is going on”. That’s the default position.

For me, as an atheist, an orderly universe is evidence for lack of design, because you can’t really have a disorderly universe that’s stable and remains in existence.

You mean, you can’t personally conceive of a disorderly universe that’s stable and remains in existence. That seems like a fallacy of argument from incredulity, to me.

You consistently are talking as though you’re not acknowledging that the Marvel universe is literally intelligently designed, or as though that is something that you don’t think would be discernible from inside that universe.

Of course it’s not discernible, because there’s always other possibilities, layer upon layer of them. Seems to me, in the Marvel Universe, one, if anything, would be MORE suspicious of any “revealed” God than in the real one.

142 jamesfirecat  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 1:17:11pm

re: #141 SidewaysQuark

No, you’re not getting it. The ‘atheist’ position is “I don’t know wtf is going on”. That’s the default position.

You mean, you can’t personally conceive of a disorderly universe that’s stable and remains in existence. That seems like a fallacy of argument from incredulity, to me.

Of course it’s not discernible, because there’s always other possibilities, layer upon layer of them. Seems to me, in the Marvel Universe, one, if anything, would be MORE suspicious of any “revealed” God than in the real one.

Agnosticism is the Philosophical position that you don’t know what the nature of the universe is.


Atheism is the philosophical position that you know there are no god(s) and everything happens for a logical reason.

Please do not confuse the two.

143 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 2:08:26pm

re: #141 SidewaysQuark

Of course it’s not discernible, because there’s always other possibilities, layer upon layer of them. Seems to me, in the Marvel Universe, one, if anything, would be MORE suspicious of any “revealed” God than in the real one.

So how do you explain the existence of Deadpool?

144 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 4:15:38pm

Oh.my.fucking.God, another one of these threads.

Congratulations SQ on your shit show.

145 ObserverArt  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 6:57:46pm

Quark,

Aren’t you being a fundamentalist too? Just in an opposite manner. And why all the strident comments? You could make a hell of a lot stronger point with less of them. And “being a jerk” is not the same as calling someone a jerk. One is descriptive of a person acting a certain way at a certain time and the other is a description of the persons character in general. Yeah, I know, it is a reading comprehension thing.

Now as far as some of what I think is your point. I came from a religious background, but that would be Catholic in the 60’s when it was quite liberal and trying to be open to all, etc. Everyday I would question a lot of the teachings and the fundamentals of those teachings. But I also learned some people need those and if their goals were good then it was good. I learned some fundamentals also give some a drive they might not get another way. Also good. And I feel the exact same way about anyone that is an atheist also has a drive from a different direction or motivation and they too can also have good goals. So to me it all comes down to the individual. And you seem to like grouping. I think that harms your debate as you tend to stridently generalize.

One other thing, you hung a lot of your argument on that bit about getting pregnant with a touch. Do you need take that so literally? What about taking it allegorically. Such as “these teens these days. It seems if they touch one another the girl gets pregnant.!” I would think even a few atheists might feel that way from time to time. As Dark Falcon points out, it is a concern for any parent or guardian of any teenager, fundamental or realist.

Add some polish to your argument, you might actually get people to consider it. I believe at the root you have merit in a decent discussion, but you aren’t allowing anyone to debate the point when they end up debating the debater character and motivations.

Note:
sorry for being so late to the thread. Just wanted to toss in. Hell, I’m always behind!

146 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 7:45:25pm

re: #40 Decatur Deb

You read the Divine Comedy for the laughs, didn’t you?

Required reading in my medieval lit class, taught by a Dante expert. Not exactly for laughs, though.

147 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:48:28pm

re: #145 ObserverArt

Quark,

Aren’t you being a fundamentalist too? Just in an opposite manner.

No.

148 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:49:52pm

re: #143 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

So how do you explain the existence of Deadpool?

A Marvel comics author invented him. A Marvel comics author could also easily invent a good rationale for being an atheist in their universe, too. Be creative!

149 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:50:32pm

re: #144 goddamnedfrank

Oh.my.fucking.God, another one of these threads.

Congratulations SQ on your shit show.

Thanks for your shit contribution, as well.

150 SidewaysQuark  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 9:54:41pm

re: #142 jamesfirecat

Agnosticism is the Philosophical position that you don’t know what the nature of the universe is.

Atheism is the philosophical position that you know there are no god(s) and everything happens for a logical reason.

Please do not confuse the two.

Atheism literally means the absence of theism, or a disbelief in gods. I think you are conflating negative and positive atheism. Your definition of such only fits one of those two categories.

151 Flavia  Wed, Nov 6, 2013 11:24:53pm

Anyone else at all curious about the hedgehog? Is it a coincidence that a hedgehog is one of the symbols of the Israeli people?

israelity.com

152 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 7, 2013 4:41:34am

re: #150 SidewaysQuark

Atheism literally means the absence of theism, or a disbelief in gods. I think you are conflating negative and positive atheism. Your definition of such only fits one of those two categories.

Then explain the difference between positive and negative atheism to me.


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LOVE and MONSTERS Trailer (2020) Dylan O’Brien, Jessica Henwick MovieLOVE AND MONSTERS Trailer (2020) Dylan O'Brien, Jessica Henwick Movie© 2020 - Paramount
Thanos
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Yusuf / Cat Stevens - Father and Son From Tea for the Tillerman Remake SUBSCRIBE yusufcatstevens.lnk.to and ENABLE 🔔 The official video for ‘Father & Son’ by Yusuf / Cat Stevens. Directed by director Chris Hopewell, Jacknife Films and Black Dog Film. Order Tea For The Tillerman 2 here: catstevens.lnk.to Listen to Father ...
Thanos
1 week, 1 day ago
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