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1 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 9:53:41am

Good to see this update. IMO-SYG needs more changes than that Dark. There has to be a heightening of justification for lethal force.

2 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 9:57:12am

re: #1 Political Atheist

Good to see this update. IMO-SYG needs more changes than that Dark. There has to be a heightening of justification for lethal force.

What ideas do have? Not trying to put you on the spot, but you tend to have some and they tend to be worthy of consideration.

3 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 10:22:53am

The SYG laws are working as intended and that’s why they won’t be “fixed” or repealed anywhere.

4 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 10:43:06am

I remain of the opinion that SYG laws are a solution in search of a problem. The standard of armed self defense remained stable from the end of Weregeld at the start of the common law era across more than 1000 years. There was nothing wrong with it that required the drastic changes of SYG and, I believe, the reasons for SYG were because proper self-defense requirements were too restrictive to those who wish to have the ability to kill the “other” without cause or fear of the law.

5 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 10:48:46am

re: #4 William Barnett-Lewis

I remain of the opinion that SYG laws are a solution in search of a problem. The standard of armed self defense remained stable from the end of Weregeld at the start of the common law era across more than 1000 years. There was nothing wrong with it that required the drastic changes of SYG and, I believe, the reasons for SYG were because proper self-defense requirements were too restrictive to those who wish to have the ability to kill the “other” without cause or fear of the law.

I’d argue that the adoption of the idea of a ‘duty to retreat’ and the problems it posed preceded SYG and in fact caused the reaction that lead to SYG bills being promulgated and passed into law. So I’d not say your timeline needs alteration, but that is not a negation of your main point.

6 Skip Intro  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:06:22am

re: #3 moderatelyradicalliberal

The SYG laws are working as intended and that’s why they won’t be “fixed” or repealed anywhere.

They certainly worked as intended here.

Renisha McBride, 19, Shot To Death On Metro Detroit Porch While Trying To Get Help, Family Says “

7 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:14:43am

re: #6 Skip Intro

They certainly worked as intended here.

Renisha McBride, 19, Shot To Death On Metro Detroit Porch While Trying To Get Help, Family Says “

As I noted on the Page where that killing was first mentioned, ‘Stand Your Ground’ does not apply when a person is inside his or her own home. There has never been a ‘Duty to Retreat’ inside a person’s own home, and the controlling rule is a different legal doctrine called the “Castle Doctrine”.

That said, neither Stand Your Ground nor the Castle Doctrine can be read to permit firing on someone who has not undertaken a hostile act through a door. That is at best Manslaughter, and more likely 2nd Degree Murder.

8 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:15:58am

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

I’d argue that the adoption of the idea of a ‘duty to retreat’ and the problems it posed preceded SYG and in fact caused the reaction that lead to SYG bills being promulgated and passed into law. So I’d not say your timeline needs alteration, but that is not a negation of your main point.

DF, the duty to retreat has been there for a very long time. A quick glace at the article on “Duty to Retreat” en.wikipedia.org in wiki shows this:

Most state legal systems began by importing English common law such as Acts of Parliament of 2 Ed. III (Statute of Northampton), and 5 Rich. II of 1381 (Forcible Entry Act 1381)-which imposed criminal sanctions intending to discourage the resort to self-help.[5][6][7] This required a threatened party to retreat, whenever property was “involved” and resolve the issue by civil means

Also, bear in mind that there is a difference between situations that allow for a retreat and those that do not. If you are attacked and have no possibility for retreat that is not the same as, for example, the infamous case in Florida.

The only problem I find with any duty to retreat is addressed by Castle Defense provisions. When you are out and about, if your back is not “against the wall”, your first duty should be to retreat and allow for other means of resolution to the situation. That is certainly my preferred tactical option when I am carrying a weapon in accordance with my CCL.

9 Skip Intro  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:20:31am

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

Speaking with the Detroit News, (the homeowner’s lawyer said), “I’m confident when the evidence comes, it will show that my client was justified and acted as a reasonable person would who was in fear for his life.”

So, was it justified or an accident? The shooter has now claimed both.

10 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:25:45am

re: #8 William Barnett-Lewis

DF, the duty to retreat has been there for a very long time. A quick glace at the article on “Duty to Retreat” en.wikipedia.org in wiki shows this:

Also, bear in mind that there is a difference between situations that allow for a retreat and those that do not. If you are attacked and have no possibility for retreat that is not the same as, for example, the infamous case in Florida.

The only problem I find with any duty to retreat is addressed by Castle Defense provisions. When you are out and about, if your back is not “against the wall”, your first duty should be to retreat and allow for other means of resolution to the situation. That is certainly my preferred tactical option when I am carrying a weapon in accordance with my CCL.

I’d accept that but for the problem of prosecutors ‘gaming’ that doctrine to gain convictions. Impose such a rule and It would be again be too easy for prosecutors to point to some theoretical action the defendant could have taken that seems plausible in the secure setting of a courtroom but that someone in a conflict situation would have been too focused on the threat to see. Onto that add the lack of familiarity most people have to that kind of dangerous situation and the need for expensive expert testimony to counter that kind of malarkey. But I don’t find a way to deal with that concern given that many prosecutors these days have an ‘anything to win’ mentality.

On some matters I feel it really is about morals rather than the law breaking down.

11 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:32:04am

re: #9 Skip Intro

So, was it justified or an accident? The shooter has now claimed both.

He will have to claim one or the other at trial, and his claiming both at various times will be used against him. I cannot say if it was an accident, justified or an act of unreasonable fear and anger without knowing more about the case. I hope you will forgive me for sounding legalistic, but in this sort of case I really would need to know the full facts before saying as a definitive if the defendant should be faulted.

That having been said, those facts that I do know lead me to believe this homeowner will have a very hard time avoiding a conviction. He fired on someone who posed no threat and who was a woman as well. This last matters to juries a good deal.

12 Lidane  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:46:05am

re: #6 Skip Intro

They certainly worked as intended here.

Renisha McBride, 19, Shot To Death On Metro Detroit Porch While Trying To Get Help, Family Says “

She’s not white or blonde. The shooter will get off scott free and nothing will change. Sad, but true.

13 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:49:37am

re: #12 Lidane

I disagree. And why do you keep bringing up blonde hair color in this matter? I don’t understand it.

14 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:53:32am

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

I disagree. And why do you keep bringing up blonde hair color in this matter? I don’t understand it.

Pretty blonds get better treatment as defendants and as plaintiffs in our judicial system.

15 Skip Intro  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:57:56am

I wonder how many of these “shoot first, ask questions later” types would do this if not for Stand Your Ground/Protect Your Castle/The Aggressor is Always Right laws?

16 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 11:58:11am

The SYG law has been having all sorts of unintended consequences and will continue to do so until it gets fixed. The Tampa Bay Times has an excellent article discussing the numerous problems:

Florida ‘stand your ground’ law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied
Friday, June 1, 2012 10:25am

Florida’s “stand your ground” law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free. It has stymied prosecutors and confused judges. • It has also served its intended purpose, exonerating dozens of people who were deemed to be legitimately acting in self-defense. Among them: a woman who was choked and beaten by an irate tenant and a man who was threatened in his driveway by a felon.

Seven years since it was passed, Florida’s “stand your ground” law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.

Cases with similar facts show surprising — sometimes shocking — differences in outcomes. If you claim “stand your ground” as the reason you shot someone, what happens to you can depend less on the merits of the case than on who you are, whom you kill and where your case is decided. […]

tampabay.com

In addition, they have a special SYG law section that provides lots of case studies, statistics, and results of their investigative journalism. Last but not least, they provide an excellent interactive page that lets you explore all the fatal cases based on accused/victim, case outcome, race, gender, and county:

Those who stood, those who fell: fatal cases

It’s a shitty law, Dark.

17 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 12:41:21pm

re: #12 Lidane

She’s not white or blonde. The shooter will get off scott free and nothing will change. Sad, but true.

If she was white or blonde he wouldn’t go to jail because he wouldn’t have shot and killed her.

As a black woman I want more Kerry Washintons and Nichole Beharies on TV not for “diversity” but to normalize black females so we won’t get shot while seeking help. We can be damsels in distress too.

18 Lidane  Sat, Nov 9, 2013 4:52:52pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

I disagree. And why do you keep bringing up blonde hair color in this matter? I don’t understand it.

Kids go missing every day. They’re shot and/or murdered daily. Guess who gets the most media attention?

19 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:43:46am
My 81-year-old mother, Barbara Parramore, is a former Sunday school teacher who served in North Carolina’s public education system for half a century as a teacher, elementary school principal, and professor of education at N.C. State University. She is the author of many books for young learners, like the Children’s Dictionary of Occupations (a subversive tract if there ever was one).

Since her retirement, Mom has been engaged in such radical activities as raising money for a 4-H museum, volunteering with the Carolina Ballet, and sharing her modest savings with her alma mater to set up a scholarship.

According to North Carolina police, she is a suspected anarchist. For real.

20 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:44:47am

re: #17 moderatelyradicalliberal

If she was white or blonde he wouldn’t go to jail because he wouldn’t have shot and killed her.

As a black woman I want more Kerry Washintons and Nichole Beharies on TV not for “diversity” but to normalize black females so we won’t get shot while seeking help. We can be damsels in distress too.

Well, as long as they look like Kerry Washington, or Whitney Houston.

21 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:48:11am

Rural Colorado Counties Vote to Secede as 51st State Because They Apparently Don’t Like Math

I love how headlines are written to grab attention. It’s a talent.

22 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 12, 2013 8:54:47am

speaking of headlines:

Even Right-Wingers Become Liberals When They Turn Off Fox News

In short, the American people were in some sense schizoid — opposed to big government in principle, but even more supportive of it in practice. Most strikingly, almost one-quarter of the population — 23 percent — were both ideological conservatives and operational liberals, and this figure skyrocketed to 46 percent in the Deep South states that Goldwater carried in the 1964 election.

23 AlexRogan  Wed, Nov 13, 2013 4:18:38pm

re: #18 Lidane

Kids go missing every day. They’re shot and/or murdered daily. Guess who gets the most media attention?

The “Nancy Grace rule”.


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