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1 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 25, 2013 9:47:00am

How is a brief filed by Lavabit’s lawyers an “admission” of anything?

This has nothing to do with the Patriot Act. The Feds were trying to get the emails of Edward Snowden, because he’s charged with very serious crimes of espionage.

2 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 25, 2013 11:35:28am

re: #1 Charles Johnson

How is a brief filed by Lavabit’s lawyers an “admission” of anything?

This has nothing to do with the Patriot Act. The Feds were trying to get the emails of Edward Snowden, because he’s charged with very serious crimes of espionage.

The Lavabit attorneys are stating a fact, admitted by the NSA since disclosures happened. The point is the sheer lack of relevance, which goes to the heart of well thought objections to the expansion of surveillance powers since the Patriot Act was implemented.

The NSA side has admitted it is gathering and keeping vast amounts of metadata that is not relevant to any particular investigation. That is where it goes wrong. This point does not rest on just the post above. it has been pointed out time and time again-accurately. Hence the Sensenbrenner/Leahy legislation and the ACLU lawsuit.

I don’t mind surveilling a suspect, a person of interest. Maybe even witnesses. But those of us uninvolved have a right to expect to be treated as such. Us and our metadata.

Why fear a proper “relevance” standard? I personally believe we as a nation can be well defended with that check in our checks and balances intact.

added edit-Where i agree most is where they don’t get all the data because they need some of it.

3 EiMitch  Mon, Nov 25, 2013 11:52:58am

First of all, to hell with Snowden. He asked for it.

Also

re: #2 Political Atheist

The NSA side has admitted it is gathering and keeping vast amounts of metadata that is not relevant to any particular investigation.

Its kinda hard to perform any particular investigation into someone’s communications without access to metadata. You can’t trust that any particular telecommunications company is going to to keep said data indefinitely. So “collect now, put under microscope later” is a practical necessity.

Sorry PA, I’ll have to downding you over this.

On the other hand, I agree on the part about how internal controls aren’t enough. At the very least, greater transparency is needed. I want to see that nobody’s being investigated without a warrant, not merely be told that. We should be able to know, not merely trust, but know, that our constitutional rights aren’t being violated. The principle of the thing and all that.

I’m torn on this. I don’t want to deny law enforcement the tools needed in today’s age. And yet, I can’t quite trust them with that power. I’m simply not complacent with secretive oversights. I just don’t have faith in faith.

4 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 25, 2013 11:57:49am

re: #3 EiMitch

First of all, to hell with Snowden. He asked for it.

Also

Its kinda hard to perform any particular investigation into someone’s communications without access to metadata. You can’t trust that any particular telecommunications company is going to to keep said data indefinitely. So “collect now, put under microscope later” is a practical necessity.

Sorry PA, I’ll have to downding you over this.

>On the other hand, I agree on the part about how internal controls aren’t enough. At the very least, greater transparency is needed. I want to see that nobody’s being spied upon without a warrant, not merely be told that. We should be able to know, not merely trust, but know, that our constitutional rights aren’t being violated. The principle of the thing and all that.

I’m torn on this. I don’t want to deny law enforcement the tools needed in today’s age. And yet, I can’t quite trust them with that power. I’m simply not complacent with secretive oversights. I just don’t have faith in faith.

Okay just don’t think of me as a Snowden supporter. If that’s the downding it ain’t right. About the metadata-We hold a higher standard than that in this country. Police used to argue for access to all phone calls. They got a warrant procedure is a check against too much authority.

And Lavabit is not about metadata. it’s about the content of all the emails on the system. Content, not just metadata. Please consider that. I’ll take my lumps if that’s apropriate to stand for the higher standard.

just please, nobody conflate my point with standing for Snowden. The Liar. Thief. Traitor. Defector. That’s Snowden IMO.

5 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 25, 2013 1:33:54pm

Two down for standing up for long standing protections. Fairly done of course, I have no issue with those who disagree.

That’s interesting to me, just ‘cause when I poll this stuff I get far less disagreement. There are subcurrents I’m not seeing or addressing well methinks.

6 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 25, 2013 1:42:04pm

re: #3 EiMitch

Its kinda hard to perform any particular investigation into someone’s communications without access to metadata. You can’t trust that any particular telecommunications company is going to to keep said data indefinitely. So “collect now, put under microscope later” is a practical necessity.

Sorry PA, I’ll have to downding you over this.

First, no need for apologies, I do appreciate the consideration. I say you can perform law enforcement based on connections particular investigation. Law enforcement chafes under it’s limits sometimes but by and large gets it done. They need a warrant to look at my phone bill. Or listen in or record me at home or on the land line phone. Ditto for faxes. They probably (unsettled law, decisions both ways so far) need a warrant to GPS my car or plane or boat.

All I want is the same for my email and metadata. Some plausible connection. I even take it this far-The protections we know we need & enjoy today for older communications technology should by default protect us on new technology. Not have to fight up through the courts to prove it. Some find that unreasonable. I’m happy to discuss it with them.

7 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 25, 2013 3:16:21pm

I don’t trust Wired to report objectively on these issues any more. The fact is that the feds did seek cooperation from Lavabit to get access to Snowden’s email, and the owner stonewalled and bullshitted them, tried to claim that Lavabit couldn’t decrypt emails even if they wanted to. Which, we now know, was false.

If he’d cooperated in the first place they wouldn’t have slapped him with a subpoena for the master encryption keys he was trying to hide.

8 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 25, 2013 4:11:57pm

re: #7 Charles Johnson

I don’t trust Wired to report objectively on these issues any more. The fact is that the feds did seek cooperation from Lavabit to get access to Snowden’s email, and the owner stonewalled and bullshitted them, tried to claim that Lavabit couldn’t decrypt emails even if they wanted to. Which, we now know, was false.

If he’d cooperated in the first place they wouldn’t have slapped him with a subpoena for the master encryption keys he was trying to hide.

okay forget Lavabit. This is bigger than any ISP.

The gorilla in the room for all this legal maneuvering is this-How deep can an agency get in grabbing data/emails/metadata that has no relevance to a crime? I staked out my position, is yours much different in what you want in the checks and balances? I suspect not much but not for me to say.


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