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1 Dr. Matt  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 5:43:18am

These anti-vaccination dolts are dangerous and that’s not hyperbole. They are spreading fear and fake narratives based non-scientific, bullshit anecdotal “evidence”. They don’t have a single study, statistic, or scientific model to support their claims and yet they use public airwaves to spew unfettered lies. Embarrassing and dangerous.

2 Bulworth  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 6:56:44am

OFFS, Katie

3 LauraNo  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 7:33:19am

“It’s responsible for the resurgence of numerous serious diseases that were on the decline, including measles, mumps, and whooping cough.”

Since you decry the lack of evidence supporting claims in the Couric segment, I wonder why you offer no support for this claim?

4 ObserverArt  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 8:46:54am

re: #3 LauraNo

“It’s responsible for the resurgence of numerous serious diseases that were on the decline, including measles, mumps, and whooping cough.”

Since you decry the lack of evidence supporting claims in the Couric segment, I wonder why you offer no support for this claim?

Try doing a search on “whooping cough increase” and then stand back.

Here is Columbus we’ve had a couple schools closed down for a bit due to outbreaks.

I’m 59, whooping cough was almost totally unheard of for almost 55 of those years. I was from the generation whose parents remembered what is was like before vaccinations. They never hesitated to take us to get them all as they came out. I still remember standing in line as a little boy at a local school to get oral polio vaccine when it first came out.

5 Dr. Matt  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 8:55:58am

re: #3 LauraNo

“It’s responsible for the resurgence of numerous serious diseases that were on the decline, including measles, mumps, and whooping cough.”

Since you decry the lack of evidence supporting claims in the Couric segment, I wonder why you offer no support for this claim?

Here’s evidence: bt.cdc.gov

6 LauraNo  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 9:19:33am

Did y’all notice my point? We shouldn’t go around complaining about the lack of supporting evidence when we think we don’t provide any ourselves. It had nothing to do with vaccines. Thank you Dr. Matt for the link.

7 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 9:22:35am

re: #6 LauraNo

The claim “Without herd vaccination, infectious diseases rise” isn’t a contentious one and is supported by mountains of evidence. It is like saying “Wounds that aren’t cleaned are more likely to get infected.”

8 BusyMonster  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 9:24:19am

I wish Couric the best of luck in the new world where we’re going to name diseases after her stupid ass.

9 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 9:27:46am

re: #6 LauraNo

Did y’all notice my point? We shouldn’t go around complaining about the lack of supporting evidence when we think we don’t provide any ourselves. It had nothing to do with vaccines. Thank you Dr. Matt for the link.

The exhaustive data resides in the FDA approval process: the drugs must be ‘safe and effective’.

10 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 9:31:45am

Katie Couric’s enemy.

Vail [AZ] pediatrician pushes for unvaccinated children to be barred from school

With nearly two dozen cases of whooping cough reported at schools in the community where he practices, Vail pediatrician Dr. Christopher Hickie fears the worst may be yet to come.

The father of four won’t treat patients whose parents have chosen not to vaccinate their children because of a personal belief. He has been kicked off a Facebook page for taking on an anti-vaccine parent.

And he has been relentlessly outspoken about his contention that Pima County is using a weak standard for figuring out what constitutes a whooping-cough outbreak, and that more unvaccinated children should be forced to stay home from school.

Whooping cough kills babies, regularly one or two per year in Arizona, Hickie points out. Typically they are infants too young to be fully vaccinated. A major outbreak in California in 2010 left 10 babies dead — all of them younger than three months.

Pima County officials say they are taking the local cases seriously and are maintaining public health without imposing unnecessary hardships on families and without compromising the privacy of infected children. Two outbreaks have been declared where three or more cases occurred in a 21-day period: at Empire High School and at Sycamore Elementary, both in Vail.

[…]

HT:

11 ObserverArt  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 9:51:36am

re: #6 LauraNo

Did y’all notice my point? We shouldn’t go around complaining about the lack of supporting evidence when we think we don’t provide any ourselves. It had nothing to do with vaccines. Thank you Dr. Matt for the link.

How many TV shows are the members here doing that have the reach of Katie? The burden of proof should be on the media that makes the topic of the show.

That is unless you don’t care they can get away with it the same time you demand the members of a blog/forum/discussion to do actual research.

12 LauraNo  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 10:13:27am

I am glad I did not express an opinion on vaccines. Yikes.

13 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 10:21:05am

re: #12 LauraNo

Do you understand the claim ‘when vaccination rates drop, infection rates increase’ is a completely uncontroversial one, that doesn’t need support? That’s what vaccinations do: they lower infection rates.

14 Skip Intro  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:32:01am

re: #12 LauraNo

I am glad I did not express an opinion on vaccines. Yikes.

I’m going to speculate that when the sun sets, it gets dark. I don’t have the time to provide proof of that, though, so I guess we should entertain other possible outcomes.

15 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 12:11:40pm

re: #12 LauraNo

I am glad I did not express an opinion on vaccines. Yikes.

No, you just had concerns.

16 blueraven  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 1:12:20pm

re: #12 LauraNo

I am glad I did not express an opinion on vaccines. Yikes.

Wow. You have been registered at LGF for almost 4 years. You have 8 comments, 3 of which are on this thread. (at this point)

What brought out your ire on this particular topic? Please don’t pretend that this is the only thread that didn’t provide a link to support a common knowledge statement.

In this context…when you ask for supporting links for this well understood fact about the anti vaccine trend

“It’s responsible for the resurgence of numerous serious diseases that were on the decline, including measles, mumps, and whooping cough.”

You really are expressing an opinion.

17 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 1:15:34pm

re: #12 LauraNo

I am glad I did not express an opinion on vaccines. Yikes.

Please, proceed.

18 LauraNo  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:21:41pm

I don’t think I expressed ire, either. I am not against vaccines but I dislike the vitriol I see aimed at people who don’t trust Pharma and the CDC, FDA, NIH, whoever and I just thought that if Katie must back up every assertion, so should everyone else. What is obvious to one person isn’t necessarily to another. The CDC, etc. are in it for the money these days it seems. They go from industry jobs to Congress to lobby firms and retire with millions/ billions after pushing anything they can on consumers that they can patent. I don’t comment much because half the time I am not recognized as being registered so I give up for long periods. This place seems to be pretty clanny anyway so I think I’ll mind my own business.

p.s. Ontario requires proof of vaccination before children can be enrolled and if they do not stay up-to-date they are prohibited from attending school. Simple as can possibly be. Course, they have standard benchmarks for student learning too. And they have health care.

19 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:32:46pm

re: #18 LauraNo

I don’t think I expressed ire, either. I am not against vaccines but I dislike the vitriol I see aimed at people who don’t trust Pharma and the CDC, FDA, NIH, whoever and I just thought that if Katie must back up every assertion, so should everyone else..

She should back up her controversial claims, as should anyone else. That vaccines lower infection rates is not contentious.

What don’t you get about that?

20 klys  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:32:54pm

re: #18 LauraNo

You do understand vaccines are not a moneymaker for the pharmaceutical industry? Right? Just checking.

When someone is stating something that goes against established scientific consensus (and believe me, there is in fact consensus among scientists on this stuff), yes, the burden of proof is on them. I am sorry if you think that’s unfair, but that’s how science works.

21 klys  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:38:09pm

re: #18 LauraNo

Also, I feel compelled to add: the movement against vaccines causes *harm.* Direct and attributable harm. People die because of this stupidity, casually mentioned without proof and swallowed by low-information folk who are just worried and concerned.

So yes. They deserve vitriol, because babies too young to be vaccinated don’t deserve to die of whooping cough because someone else wants to be an idiot.

22 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:45:39pm

re: #18 LauraNo

I don’t think I expressed ire, either. I am not against vaccines but I dislike the vitriol I see aimed at people who don’t trust Pharma and the CDC, FDA, NIH, whoever and I just thought that if Katie must back up every assertion, so should everyone else.

This is pedantic and stupid. The FDA approval process requires proof of efficacy in double blind studies overseen by independent review boards. Moreover any and all adverse events must be statistically analyzed such that the risks to the population as a whole cannot outweigh the benefits.

The CDC, etc. are in it for the money these days it seems. They go from industry jobs to Congress to lobby firms and retire with millions/ billions after pushing anything they can on consumers that they can patent.

LOL. Your fantasy scenario of the oversight process is a ridiculous caricature, for one thing the CDC plays no role in which vaccines and drugs are approved. The FDA and IRB personnel are often career scientists within those particular orgs, and they get paid whether or not they approve any particular drug. Very few of the scientists ever get involved in lobbying and almost none ever make it to Congress (how were you even able to type this with a straight face?) I’ve worked on drug trials from the big pharma end and there’s really no room to make adverse events disappear from view. There’s multiple layers of redundancy and all data is inputted, reviewed, verified several times before it hits the biostatisticians and clinical research analysts. Even after that the data is subject to random audits that go back to the originating clinic’s records, any kind of systemic fraud would be very, very difficult to pull off in that environment.

23 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Dec 5, 2013 7:12:24pm

re: #22 goddamnedfrank

And in fact, the actual problem we have now is many, many failures in Stage II as toxicities and inefficacy is revealed. It’s becoming a huge problem, so much so that a lot of research is now going to anything that looks like it might be able to predict that sort of shit.

24 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 6, 2013 6:08:59am

re: #22 goddamnedfrank

This is pedantic and stupid. The FDA approval process requires proof of efficacy in double blind studies overseen by independent review boards. Moreover any and all adverse events must be statistically analyzed such that the risks to the population as a whole cannot outweigh the benefits.

LOL. Your fantasy scenario of the oversight process is a ridiculous caricature, for one thing the CDC plays no role in which vaccines and drugs are approved. The FDA and IRB personnel are often career scientists within those particular orgs, and they get paid whether or not they approve any particular drug. Very few of the scientists ever get involved in lobbying and almost none ever make it to Congress (how were you even able to type this with a straight face?) I’ve worked on drug trials from the big pharma end and there’s really no room to make adverse events disappear from view. There’s multiple layers of redundancy and all data is inputted, reviewed, verified several times before it hits the biostatisticians and clinical research analysts. Even after that the data is subject to random audits that go back to the originating clinic’s records, any kind of systemic fraud would be very, very difficult to pull off in that environment.

I doubt ‘Laura No’ actually knows anything about how the FDA or pharma companies work other than the dishonestly potted version she picked up on the internet. Most people don’t really understand how a drug gets approved, which is how conspiracism like hers takes root. Heck, I only know because of my work.

The public needs to be better educated about how the government really works.

25 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Fri, Dec 6, 2013 10:15:19am

re: #24 Dark_Falcon

The public needs to be better educated about how the government really works.

To this end, it’d be great if the GOP stopped lying continually about that, like Mark Kirk.


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