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1 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 8:57:43am

In my opinion, if you have a business that consists of offering your services to the public in exchange for money, there is no difference between the photograph, the cake, website, the catering, or the cleaning of the sewer afterwards. You cannot refuse a public accommodation on the basis of sexual orientation.

I’m not surprised that libertarians have expressed support for the ‘right’ to discriminate. I am surprised the editors of the LA Times are among them.

There’s some more discussion of it here.

2 geoffm33  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 9:06:34am

Posted this in a front page thread:

re: #218 Political Atheist

Gay rights: Can discrimination be legal?
A majority of businesses shouldn’t be able to refuse to serve gay couples, but ‘expressive professions’ may deserve an exception.

latimes.com

LGF Poll

I call absolute bullshit:

In her petition to the Supreme Court, Huguenin warns that the decision against her threatens other “expressive professions” including “marketers, advertisers, publicists and website designers.”

Much as we support same-sex marriage and oppose discrimination, we do see a distinction between businesses that provide the same product or service to all comers and those that collaborate in the creation of a personalized message. We acknowledge that drawing that line will sometimes be difficult.


latimes.com

So marketers, website designers, etc can’t be compelled to take on work for same-sex couples/causes because collaboration?

How is providing a service of food at a restaurant or shelter at a hotel truly any different than building a website? How does collaboration or creativity play any role here?

If I were an honest web designer that opposed gay marriage (I’m not) I would be up front in telling them that I am happy to try my best, but the collaboration may not result in the best work because I don’t fully understand the lifestyle.

3 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 9:17:54am

Here is my point of interest-And I think this shows the “I call bullshit” above as a tad overblown, at least in tyhe legal sense.
re: #2 geoffm33

My bold-

There are constitutional values on both sides of the case: the couple’s right to equal treatment and Ms. Huguenin’s right to free speech. I asked Louise Melling, a lawyer at the American Civil Liberties Union, which has a distinguished history of championing free speech, how the group had evaluated the case.

Ms. Melling said the evaluation had required difficult choices. Photography is expression protected by the Constitution, she said, and Ms. Huguenin acted from “heartfelt convictions.”

4 geoffm33  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 9:18:06am

Oh, and one of the “No” votes in the poll is mistakenly mine. Should be a “Yes”. Reading comprehension fail.

5 geoffm33  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 9:25:33am

re: #3 Political Atheist

Here is my point of interest-And I think this shows the “I call bullshit” above as a tad overblown, at least in tyhe legal sense.


My bold-

Ms Melling’s comments don’t change my point of view. I may be on the losing end of legal precedent, but it won’t change my point of view.

However, my bullshit comment was in direct response to the quoted portion that followed it.

threatens other “expressive professions” including “marketers, advertisers, publicists and website designers.”

If photography is expression protected by the constitution, is a weekend newspaper circular protected as well?

6 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 9:31:14am

re: #5 geoffm33

If photography is expression protected by the constitution, is a weekend newspaper circular protected as well?

Maybe, as in the constitutional divide of these “expressive” kinds of work. It’s worth noting this is a divide respected by our best advocates of free speech and anti discrimination. Of course it’s far from the first time one right conflicts with another. Retail sales is very different in nature than those that generate content from their minds and judgement.

In multiple cases writing and photography have enjoyed special protections.

7 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 9:50:45am

re: #3 Political Atheist

Here is my point of interest-And I think this shows the “I call bullshit” above as a tad overblown, at least in tyhe legal sense.


My bold-

Ms. Melling may have found the choices ‘difficult’, but others do not. From the same link:

“This was a straightforward case of discrimination in the public marketplace,” Mr. Wolff said. “No court has ever held that the First Amendment gives businesses a license to sell goods and services to the general public but then reject customers based on race or religion or sexual orientation, in violation of state law.”

Emphasis added.

And whether Ms. Melling found the choices difficult or not, she came to the same conclusion (that it’s illegal discrimination). I don’t know what the hell is wrong with the editors of the LA Times.

8 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 9:52:04am

re: #6 Political Atheist

Retail sales is very different in nature than those that generate content from their minds and judgement.

Not always.

9 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 9:56:47am

re: #3 Political Atheist

Here is my point of interest-And I think this shows the “I call bullshit” above as a tad overblown, at least in tyhe legal sense.


My bold-

Louise Melling’s opinion:

We are hopeful that today’s unanimous decision can help put an end to this type of discrimination in the marketplace and move us closer to a nation that respects and honors everyone’s humanity.

Ooops, here’s the link.

10 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 10:04:21am

re: #7 wrenchwench

Ms. Melling may have found the choices ‘difficult’, but others do not. From the same link:

Emphasis added.

And whether Ms. Melling found the choices difficult or not, she came to the same conclusion (that it’s illegal discrimination). I don’t know what the hell is wrong with the editors of the LA Times.

Nothing needs to be wrong with them IMO. It’s not that clear cut legally or morally. Differing rights are in conflict, and that should never be taken as a given or lightly. The ACLU sees the conflict, the judge sees it, the Times falls in that span, with a legit worry about compelled intellectual content.

11 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 10:11:24am

re: #10 Political Atheist

Nothing needs to be wrong with them IMO. It’s not that clear cut legally or morally. Differing rights are in conflict, and that should never be taken as a give or lightly. The ACLU sees the conflict, the judge sees it, the Times falls in that span, with a legit worry about compelled intellectual content.

The artist is not compelled. The writer is not compelled. The business is compelled. As it should be. As the ‘uneasy’ judge agreed. As the ACLU agreed, vehemently. The LA Times has gone dudebro. In my opinion, that is what is wrong with them.

12 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 12, 2013 5:29:55pm

Don’t hat tip me if you’re not going to use the part I quoted. ‘Technically’ there’s nothing wrong with doing that, but it’s annoying and it might give someone who reads the Page without the comments the wrong impression.


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