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1 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:50:17am

Obviously the Catholic Church holds some regressive beliefs, particularly about women, contraception and homosexuality. But Francis change in tone to emphasize economic justice and being less judgmental is a big improvement, and we should welcome that.

2 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:58:44am

re: #1 aagcobb

Obviously the Catholic Church holds some regressive beliefs, particularly about women, contraception and homosexuality. But Francis change in tone to emphasize economic justice and being less judgmental is a big improvement, and we should welcome that.

aagcob —No, we should welcome nothing less than equality. The Pope is still speaking to only 50% of the population.

Either women are human beings or we are not.

Peace cannot come without Justice.

Justice cannot come without equality.

Economic Justice cannot happen unless women are fully able to control their reproduction.

His words fall very short.

3 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:03:03pm

From the second link:

Pope Francis also reflected on the broader role of the laity in the Church, saying that they are “the vast majority of the People of God,” and ordained ministers are the minority who are “at their service.”

“There has been a growing awareness of the identity and mission of the laity in the Church,” he said, and there are “many lay persons, although still not nearly enough, who have a deeply-rooted sense of community and great fidelity to the tasks of charity, catechesis and the celebration of the faith.”

Many others, however, still lack an understanding of their responsibility as laity, he continued. Sometimes this is due to inadequate formation, and other times to “an excessive clericalism which keeps them away from decision-making.”

Why doesn’t that apply to ordaining women, too?

They are choosing words carefully to try to sound reasonable, but they can’t explain why this one area, administering sacraments, has to be off-limits for women. There is no way to say women belong everywhere else but not here, without saying men are superior. As always, I feel like they are trying to fool people.

4 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:13:03pm

re: #3 wrenchwench

From the second link:

Why doesn’t that apply to ordaining women, too?

They are choosing words carefully to try to sound reasonable, but they can’t explain why this one area, administering sacraments, has to be off-limits for women. There is no way to say women belong everywhere else but not here, without saying men are superior. As always, I feel like they are trying to fool people.

For accuracy, women can perform at least 2 of the 7 sacraments, and an ordinary priest can do only two more. (The extreme edges of Confession are dicey, and only a bishop can do Confirmation and Holy Orders.)

You may now feel less inferior.

5 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:20:44pm

re: #2 FemNaziBitch

aagcob —No, we should welcome nothing less than equality. The Pope is still speaking to only 50% of the population.

Either women are human beings or we are not.

Peace cannot come without Justice.

Justice cannot come without equality.

Economic Justice cannot happen unless women are fully able to control their reproduction.

His words fall very short.

I don’t disagree with any of that. I still prefer Francis to the last Pope.

6 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:22:14pm

re: #4 Decatur Deb

For accuracy, women can perform at least 2 of the 7 sacraments, and an ordinary priest can do only two more. (The extreme edges of Confession are dicey, and only a bishop can do Confirmation and Holy Orders.)

You may now feel less inferior.

I pitched the whole paradigm. I almost feel superior! (-:

7 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:23:44pm

re: #6 wrenchwench

I pitched the whole paradigm. I almost feel superior! (-:

Yes, that’s the last temptation for us secular humanists.

8 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:35:12pm
9 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:35:27pm

back for a short while. I need to feed the headache some coffee.

10 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:35:38pm

never mind, wrong thread.

11 shecky  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:38:19pm

Hard to get upset about this one. Sounds like the complaint is that the Catholic guy is still Catholic.

This line of criticism just seems a bit tone deaf. Pope Francis makes news because he has departed from where Church leaders have ventured into the public forum. In the US in particular, Church leadership has made a point of becoming essentially a wing of the Republican party when it comes to legislating sexuality, and conveniently glossing over areas where Church teaching is in contrast to Republican politics. Francis has vocally criticized this approach and reinforced the notion that the Church is concerned with something other than whatever stirs your loins, like poverty, inequality, etc. All while taking a dim view of the politics of the religious one trick pony culture war approach we’ve seen with the joining of the Catholic church with the religious right.

12 danhenry1  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 8:12:14pm

women and men in the Catholic church can serve communion. Only an ordained priest can ‘consecrate’ the bread and wine, ie. perform the sacrament.
Baptism is the only one that can be done by ‘anyone..as long as they have been baptized.

13 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 4:08:47am

re: #12 danhenry1

women and men in the Catholic church can serve communion. Only an ordained priest can ‘consecrate’ the bread and wine, ie. perform the sacrament.
Baptism is the only one that can be done by ‘anyone..as long as they have been baptized.

Matrimony is performed by the marrying couple. The priest (sometimes deacon) is the chief witness. In extremis, the absence of a priest is (was) not critical.

The thinking about Reconciliation (Confession) is not solidified. It is thought that deathbed confession to a lay person is of value (the ‘Couldn’t Hoit’ rule).

Baptism can be performed in a pinch by a Buddhist lesbian if she knows and follows the simple formula. There are two other kinds of effectual Baptism (Blood, Desire) you can perform on yourself, but that’s really getting into the weeds.

(All above depends on likely stability of doctrine since I bailed from the seminary in the 60s.)

14 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:45:55am

re: #11 shecky

sheky, it’s easy to get upset if you are a woman and were raised Catholic.

Pope is not as liberal as the media would have us believe. People do look to him and does affect US politics.

15 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 9:51:34am

re: #11 shecky

Hard to get upset about this one. Sounds like the complaint is that the Catholic guy is still Catholic.

That’s a legitimate complaint.

16 jonhendry  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 11:39:47am

I’m reminded of the people who, early in Obama’s term - like in May of 2009 complained that he’d done little for gay rights.

OBAMA INACTION ON PROMISES TO GAY VOTERS UNDER FOCUS

I get it, you’re a single-issue kind of person, and you insist that your issue be addressed immediately. But I’m not going to ignore what he *is* doing. Poverty and the concentration of wealth affect a hell of a lot more people than the inability to be a priest. You’re upset because of the symbolism of the church’s position, not because there’s some hugely widespread hardship that women suffer in not being able to take on roles in the church.

17 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 29, 2013 11:11:55am

re: #16 jonhendry

I’m reminded of the people who, early in Obama’s term - like in May of 2009 complained that he’d done little for gay rights.

OBAMA INACTION ON PROMISES TO GAY VOTERS UNDER FOCUS

I get it, you’re a single-issue kind of person, and you insist that your issue be addressed immediately. But I’m not going to ignore what he *is* doing. Poverty and the concentration of wealth affect a hell of a lot more people than the inability to be a priest. You’re upset because of the symbolism of the church’s position, not because there’s some hugely widespread hardship that women suffer in not being able to take on roles in the church.

Yes, I am a single-issue person. What I fail to understand is why so many people miss the point.

You cannot improve poverty or the concentration of wealth unless you address 100% of the population. The pope is still only speaking to half.

Until Women are recognized as human beings, with full reproductive rights, poverty will continue. Individual Choice is a basic human right.

It has little to do with priesthood, yet it seems to be the focal point.


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