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1 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 12:30:27pm

I wonder if the wingnuts will boycott FB now…

2 jvic  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 12:42:49pm

Yes indeed, Mark Zuckerberg’s billionaire status is a coincidental side-effect of his passion to help all humanity.

Never mind the two lawsuits settled about the founding of Facebook. Never mind the H-1B workers at FaceBook. Never mind Silicon Valley’s conspiracy to hold down the wages of tech workers[1]. Never mind the kleptocrat elite’s lust for cheap labor at the expense of the US working classes. Mark Zuckerberg is yay! On Our Side! Not like those boo! hiss! 19th-century robber barons.

Is anybody in this rapidly-taking-on-water country even capable anymore of thinking in any terms but zero-sum short-run partisan advantage?
—————————————————————
[1] IMO the networks used to hold down wages of Silicon Valley worker bees are also used to let compensation of senior executives grow to the sky.

3 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 12:44:07pm

re: #1 CuriousLurker

I don’t know, maybe. But I have a feeling they won’t since they’ll still want to use it to get their message out. There are a lot of wingnuts on Facebook still.

4 ObserverArt  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 1:26:26pm

So Zuckerberg is a mainstream Conservative? Well, color me surprised. What with that knowledge and the whole NSA thing, I would think any respectable dudebros would want to be leery of being part of Facebook. He could be funneling all their data straight to the spies and getting paid for it.

Hmm. Just a thought regarding ‘celebrity’ boxing matches made for ratings. How about Zuckerberg vs. Snowden in some nice sport lovin’ neutral country like North Korea? Lots to love in that one. Zimmerman could fight someone on the undercard too, like a German skinhead and they could beat the ever-living hate out of each other.

Get your popcorn…here!

5 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 2:01:01pm

re: #2 jvic

Yes indeed, Mark Zuckerberg’s billionaire status is a coincidental side-effect of his passion to help all humanity. …Mark Zuckerberg is yay! On Our Side! Not like those boo! hiss! 19th-century robber barons.

Is anybody in this rapidly-taking-on-water country even capable anymore of thinking in any terms but zero-sum short-run partisan advantage?

*blinks* Really? You got a sense of exuberant, uncritical, rah-rah enthusiasm? From where? I didn’t see it in the 197-word SPLC article, nor do any of the current comments strike me as being in that vein.

6 EiMitch  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 2:47:06pm

re: #2 jvic

The way I see it, Zuckerberg is trying to buy good karma (for lack of a better description) to counter the bad he has earned. That much, I won’t criticize or otherwise discourage. But neither will I forget his sins.

That aside, its nice to see someone trying to fight the racist poison that has polluted our politics. I dunno how much good this will actually accomplish, but I’m always glad to see it opposed by someone with clout.

7 jvic  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 5:57:14pm

re: #5 CuriousLurker

*blinks* Really? You got a sense of exuberant, uncritical, rah-rah enthusiasm? From where? I didn’t see it in the 197-word SPLC article, nor do any of the current comments strike me as being in that vein.

For most of my adult life I have gotten a sense that the powers that be are flat-out lying about the need for immigration.

Born to refugee parents, I consider myself well-disposed to immigration, but afaic the p.t.b. never give an intellectually honest picture of the tradeoffs. Ditto for too many advocates of legalization or amnesty or guest work or whatever it’s called nowadays.

2. re: #6 EiMitch

The way I see it, Zuckerberg is trying to buy good karma (for lack of a better description) to counter the bad he has earned. That much, I won’t criticize or otherwise discourage. But neither will I forget his sins.

That aside, its nice to see someone trying to fight the racist poison that has polluted our politics. I dunno how much good this will actually accomplish, but I’m always glad to see it opposed by someone with clout.

Arguably Zuckerberg is buying good publicity to cover up the damage he is participating in.

As for racism, there would be less of it if so many white middle-class Americans weren’t feeling vulnerable and scared and dispossessed. Some of their complaints are legitimate. So far there has been no major figure to advocate for them (afaic the likes of Buchanan, Palin and Huckabee lack the gravitas and are too obviously self-interested). If someone like that emerges, especially if they can build bridges to a critical mass of nonwhite voters, the results could be tectonic.

3. Racism schmacism: Americans have always loathed each other. I’ll worry if interracial marriages fall sharply.

4. Afaic a nation that doesn’t try to control its borders doesn’t deserve to survive, and won’t. That said, people, sometimes desperate, often illegal, who scramble here in search of a better life do not have my enmity.

My anger is reserved for the American elites who de facto invite the illegals. My anger is reserved for the say 0.01% who deliberately undermine the rule of law for political and economic advantage regardless of the effect on the country as a whole…and lie through their teeth about what they’re doing.

8 EiMitch  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 6:58:28pm

re: #7 jvic

Afaic a nation that doesn’t try to control its borders doesn’t deserve to survive, and won’t.

If by “border control” you mean building a fence and constantly scanning every piece of land a human being could conceivably walk across, then thats a fools errand. The US/Mexico border, which we’ve been obsessing over, is way too big to control. It requires too much resources and manpower. And the US/Canada border is even worse in that regard.

But if you instead meant “examining people and goods who come here by legal mean,” then thats actually doable. In fact, we used to do a pretty good job of keeping pests from hitchhiking on imported goods before 9-11-01. Then our obsession with terrorism diverted nearly all resources and expertise away from border pest control. Almost overnight, invasive species quickly spread throughout the country, devastating crops and ecosystems.

Yeah, totally worth it.

The only two reasons illegal immigration is a problem are:

1 - They’re getting paid so little. But the same can be said about fast-food workers.

2 - They’re here illegally, so they’re off the grid. Its easier to exploit people when they can’t call the police.

If it was easier for people to come here legally, then there would be no incentive for taking cutthroat pay under the table. They’d be working for legal pay, benefits, and applicable taxes. And if minimum wage was increased to a living wage, then they’d be contributing to the economy rather than just living hand-to-mouth. Thus they’d be helping create more jobs to replace the ones they “stole.”

Or we can obsess over trying to create a modern “great wall,” while ironically mocking the Chinese for having only just recently landed a robot on the moon.

9 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Feb 9, 2014 11:21:08pm

re: #2 jvic

Yes indeed, Mark Zuckerberg’s billionaire status is a coincidental side-effect of his passion to help all humanity.

Never mind the two lawsuits settled about the founding of Facebook. Never mind the H-1B workers at FaceBook. Never mind Silicon Valley’s conspiracy to hold down the wages of tech workers[1]. Never mind the kleptocrat elite’s lust for cheap labor at the expense of the US working classes. Mark Zuckerberg is yay! On Our Side! Not like those boo! hiss! 19th-century robber barons.

Is anybody in this rapidly-taking-on-water country even capable anymore of thinking in any terms but zero-sum short-run partisan advantage?
—————————————————————
[1] IMO the networks used to hold down wages of Silicon Valley worker bees are also used to let compensation of senior executives grow to the sky.

I’m sorry I meant to respond to this earlier, however I had to go to work and was late getting back. You’re comment didn’t even show up on my computer until after I responded to curious Lurker. I wanted to be able to read your links before I replied.

No one said Mark Zuckerberg is perfect. He’s a human being, not a god or an angel. He’s done things that are wrong, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s done this. Its still a good thing that he has done it.

John Tanton is a bigot, and the real reason he’s so worried about illegal immigration has more to do with racism and xenophobia than helping the American worker.

10 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 10, 2014 11:00:26am

re: #7 jvic

For most of my adult life I have gotten a sense that the powers that be are flat-out lying about the need for immigration.

Born to refugee parents, I consider myself well-disposed to immigration, but afaic the p.t.b. never give an intellectually honest picture of the tradeoffs. Ditto for too many advocates of legalization or amnesty or guest work or whatever it’s called nowadays.

So then why don’t you tell us what the tradeoffs have been proven to be instead of snarking at us? To be quite honest your #2 felt pretty personal, like you were scolding the LGF members participating in this thread as being incapable of “thinking in any terms but zero-sum short-run partisan advantage.” I didn’t see anything supporting that in the comments here or in the SPLC article.

I haven’t had a lot of interactions with you, but the ones I have had have been pleasant—calmly rational & courteous—which is why I was left *blinking* at your strong response to this subject.

As for my comment about wingnuts boycotting FB, it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek as boycotting seems to be everyone’s standard response nowadays, however I’m sure (as CD pointed out in #3) that it’s unlikely that any large politically active group would stop using FB. FWIW, I quit using it 2+ years ago.

2. re: #6 EiMitch

Arguably Zuckerberg is buying good publicity to cover up the damage he is participating in.

As for racism, there would be less of it if so many white middle-class Americans weren’t feeling vulnerable and scared and dispossessed. Some of their complaints are legitimate. So far there has been no major figure to advocate for them (afaic the likes of Buchanan, Palin and Huckabee lack the gravitas and are too obviously self-interested). If someone like that emerges, especially if they can build bridges to a critical mass of nonwhite voters, the results could be tectonic.

Which of their complaints are legitimate? Who’s feeding the fear & resentment that results in their racism? Who profits from their dispossession? It’s not the poor and working- or middle-class people of color at whom they’re so angry that are screwing them over—even if they wanted to, they don’t have sufficient access to the levers of power necessary to do so.

3. Racism schmacism: Americans have always loathed each other. I’ll worry if interracial marriages fall sharply.

Racism (and religious intolerance) have been with us since the birth of our nation, but that’s not a reason to dismiss it, which is what it feels like you’re doing. Would you also say the following? “Anti-Semitism schmemitism: Americans have always been intolerant of each other’s religions. I’ll worry if interfaith marriages fall sharply.” I hope not—I wouldn’t.

EiMitch has already addressed the rest, so I’ll leave it alone.

11 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 10, 2014 11:30:16am

re: #7 jvic

For most of my adult life I have gotten a sense that the powers that be are flat-out lying about the need for immigration.

Born to refugee parents, I consider myself well-disposed to immigration, but afaic the p.t.b. never give an intellectually honest picture of the tradeoffs. Ditto for too many advocates of legalization or amnesty or guest work or whatever it’s called nowadays.

The need for immigration is a matter of opinion. The results are matters of fact. Immigration makes our country and our economy stronger.

As for racism, there would be less of it if so many white middle-class Americans weren’t feeling vulnerable and scared and dispossessed. Some of their complaints are legitimate. So far there has been no major figure to advocate for them (afaic the likes of Buchanan, Palin and Huckabee lack the gravitas and are too obviously self-interested). If someone like that emerges, especially if they can build bridges to a critical mass of nonwhite voters, the results could be tectonic.

Barack Obama got elected twice. It has happened. The results have been tectonic.

Racism schmacism: Americans have always loathed each other. I’ll worry if interracial marriages fall sharply.

That’s an irresponsible attitude. Fewer people die when racism is opposed, more people die when racism is encouraged.

12 jvic  Mon, Feb 10, 2014 10:21:33pm

1. re: #10 CuriousLurker

Who profits from their dispossession? It’s not the poor and working- or middle-class people of color at whom they’re so angry that are screwing them over—even if they wanted to, they don’t have sufficient access to the levers of power necessary to do so.

Indeed, people citizens of color do not benefit; actually, they may be disproportionately hurt, a feature that the corporatist Stupid Party is taking pains not to point out. It’s people in the power elite who benefit: for example, politicians looking to import votes and big corporations looking for cheap labor.

To be quite honest your #2 felt pretty personal, like you were scolding the LGF members participating in this thread as being incapable of “thinking in any terms but zero-sum short-run partisan advantage.”

It was certainly not meant to apply personally to you, nor was it meant to apply exclusively to the tone of many comments at this blog; it is meant to describe the overall post-Bill-Clinton USA. “God looks after fools, drunks, and the United States of America.” Maybe, but surely even His patience will at some point be exhausted.

2. re: #11 wrenchwench

The need for immigration is a matter of opinion. The results are matters of fact. Immigration makes our country and our economy stronger.

To date, immigration into the US has done more good than harm. That hasn’t always been the case everywhere: cf. immigration into Mexico’s Texas territory.

3. As for the drive-by downdings of my posts above: although I blamed the so-called 1% for the immigration mess, maybe I did not blame them the correct way. Ah yes, the pluralistic, inclusive, diversity-celebrating Left.

13 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 11, 2014 3:58:59pm

re: #12 jvic

Ah yes, the pluralistic, inclusive, diversity-celebrating Left.

Caused a downding.

14 jvic  Tue, Feb 11, 2014 7:49:40pm

re: #13 wrenchwench

Caused a downding.

Had you limited yourself to saying something like The drive-by downdings were uncalled for but so was your remark, that would have been okay with me. I might even have agreed.

15 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 12, 2014 8:55:51am

re: #14 jvic

Had you limited yourself to saying something like The drive-by downdings were uncalled for but so was your remark, that would have been okay with me. I might even have agreed.

I wouldn’t agree, though. The only appropriate reactions to drive by downdings in my opinion are either ignore them, or ask for an explaination from the dinger. Complaints about downdings earn downdings. Complaints about downdings that insult the dingers earn extra downdings.


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