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1 palmerskiss  Wed, Mar 5, 2014 2:51:01pm

“America and Europe look like a bunch of weak idiots. I think that is what they are. “

not necessarily, this is an area where the nuance is what matters…

2 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 8:58:40am

You’ve said that Putin:

• Assassinates his political opponents
• Equips and bankrolls rogue states and terrorist armies
• Cuts off Eastern Europe’s gas in a harsh winter if they don’t pay unfavourable prices
• Killed Poland’s leaders
• Blackmailed Belarus
• Annexed north Georgia
• Knows Crimea is his

You follow that with insults, calling America & Europe “a bunch of weak idiots”, singling out Obama, Merkel, and Cameron by name, then finally fuming about “breathtaking” apathy. Yet you offer no solutions of your own.

Why don’t you give specific examples of all the things you listed? Then for each one of them, talk about who the European & American leaders were at the time and what, precisely, you think it is they should have done. Should they have taken action unilaterally or in concert? If the latter, then how to get everyone on board? Who’d be in charge and take the blame if things got out of control?

If you’re not willing to do that, then this Page comes across as nothing more than a self-indulgent, petulant rant that’s entirely useless to readers.

3 Jack Burton  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 12:06:11pm

What would any of the above done to not look “Weak”.

Get involved in another ground war somewhere with no popular support that could start World War 3?

4 Jack Burton  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 12:07:38pm

“Gentlemen’s Agreements” to not use Nuclear Weapons between the US and Russia when fighting each other only exist in Tom Clancy and Clive Cussler novels.

Edit: Larry Bond. Not Cussler. I was thinking of the Co-author of Red Storm Rising.

5 Dom  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 12:40:10pm

re: #2 CuriousLurker

You’ve said that Putin:

• Assassinates his political opponents

Such as Alexander Litvinenko.

• Equips and bankrolls rogue states and terrorist armies

Such as Iran & Syria and their satellites.

• Cuts off Eastern Europe’s gas in a harsh winter if they don’t pay unfavourable prices

No, you bloody use Google. He has done it enough times in disputes with Ukraine and Belarus that if you read the news at all you should hardly need reminding. To be honest this is because the tone of your reply was damn rude, and I didn’t expect it.

• Killed Poland’s leaders

Call it my opinion (I did). For me that plane crash had Putin written all over it but if you don’t agree, perhaps at least recall what a prick he was about the massacre in the first place.

Blackmailed Belarus

Repeatedly the gas again, and he has sovietised that country and installed his President. I think the election result is fairly well documented if you care to take a look.

Annexed north Georgia

Are you arguing with me on that as well?

Knows Crimea is his

And I was spot on. Today’s news: bbc.co.uk

You follow that with insults, calling America & Europe “a bunch of weak idiots”, singling out Obama, Merkel, and Cameron by name, then finally fuming about “breathtaking” apathy. Yet you offer no solutions of your own.

Just to treat Putin as hostile. I am angry that he is all good to host major sporting events, that trade with him was back to normal pretty soon after he did that to Georgia, that the build up in Ukraine was clearly down to him and a long time coming and there was no foresight. Granted, I wasn’t pressing for military involvement, but damn if we don’t learn a big lesson.

Why don’t you give specific examples of all the things you listed?

At least some of those things are pretty specific, and it shouldn’t be too hard to see what I’m saying. Why didn’t you actually respond to any of those things?

Then for each one of them, talk about who the European & American leaders were at the time and what, precisely, you think it is they should have done. Should they have taken action unilaterally or in concert? If the latter, then how to get everyone on board? Who’d be in charge and take the blame if things got out of control?

More fkn soviet red tape. FFS I made my point, it is what I think , I don’t have to respond to that particular challenge. NATO has friends in Eastern Europe, and together with Western Europe has a strong interest in refusing Putin inroads and the unravelling of the Soviet era. I am asking for us not to be afraid of installing troops. If you disagree, please don’t ask what my other suggestions would be. I might not have any. If you do by all means make suggestions.

If you’re not willing to do that, then this Page comes across as nothing more than a self-indulgent, petulant rant that’s entirely useless to readers.

That’s what you sound like. You said nothing at all.

6 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 12:51:41pm

re: #5 Dom

LOL, okayyy. I think we’re done here. Yep, we’re definitely done. *SMH*

7 Dom  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 3:20:05pm

You seem set on being rude, be like that if you want. In response to your post, in which you asked for more and didn’t state your position, I clarified the short list of things that are surely not news to you, and posted a link that underscores my point about Putin’s fait accompli. All the best.

8 Dom  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 3:21:04pm

But you took a moment to vote me down and play to the crowd! Thanks for your input.

9 Dom  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 3:29:49pm

I just don’t understand why you bothered doing that instead of stating an opinion of your own. Isn’t very decent of you.

10 CuriousLurker  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 5:26:34pm

re: #9 Dom

I just don’t understand why you bothered doing that instead of stating an opinion of your own. Isn’t very decent of you.

Okay, against my better judgement I’m going to try engaging with you one more time.

The only reason I even commented on your Page to begin wit is because it;s generally considered bad form to down-ding something without giving a reason why, so I gave my reason(s).

Let’s go over it again, from the top: You started off with a laundry list of complaints about Putin, then followed that by insulting my country & President as looking “like a bunch of weak idiots” and saying the “apathy was breathtaking.” (I assume you’re not American due to the way you spelled “unfavourable”.) You did this without providing any specific examples or offering a single solution.

In my #2 I then calmly asked you you to provide examples of all the items you’d enumerated and explain who was responsible and what you think should have been done. In your #5 you provided three examples then basically told me to go Google it myself:

No, you bloody use Google.

Why should I? You’ve been an LGF member for 10 years, so you should know good & damned well that if you’re going to assert something then the burden is on YOU to support it—your Page, your assertions, your burden of proof.

You followed that by saying “if” I read the news at all, then you shouldn’t have to remind me about things like the gas situation with Eastern Europe. Oh, and you were just responding like this because I was the one who had the (unexpectedly) rude tone:

…if you read the news at all you should hardly need reminding. To be honest this is because the tone of your reply was damn rude, and I didn’t expect it.

Really? I don’t know WTF you’re from and I don’t much care at this point, but I’d assume that if you have any love for you country you’d be insulted if someone came to a website belonging to one of your compatriots and said about it the same sort of things you said about the U.S.

You then proceeded to assert something you couldn’t possibly substantiate (Putin killed Poland’s leaders), but, oh, that was just your opinion.

Next, you implied that I’m either ignorant of or don’t care enough to find out about what’s gone on with Russia & Belarus:

I think the election result is fairly well documented if you care to take a look.

You don’t know me form Adam’s off ox, therefore any insinuations are likely to reveal much more about you than about me, so you might want to be careful what you show people.

Moving on, you attempted to construct a straw man by asking if I was “arguing” with you about Georgia:

Are you arguing with me on that as well?

LOLWUT? O_o

Then yada, yada, yada and:

Why didn’t you actually respond to any of those things?

Respond to what? You hadn’t been specific about anything until after I commented. Again: O_o

Next:

More fkn soviet red tape. FFS I made my point, it is what I think , I don’t have to respond to that particular challenge.

FFS indeed. Now my questions are “fkn soviet red tape.”

Finally finishing off your #5, we arrive at the only part of my original comment that could’ve been construed as having a rude “tone”:

If you’re not willing to do that, then this Page comes across as nothing more than a self-indulgent, petulant rant that’s entirely useless to readers.

That’s what you sound like. You said nothing at all.

If you’re expecting an apology for me getting a bit snarky after you’ve attacked my country & its leader, as if we’re responsible for the actions of some authoritarian former KGB asshole halfway across the world, then I have to warn you that you’re going to be waiting for a very, very long time.

re: #7 Dom

Start from the top and read everything again.

re: #8 Dom

But you took a moment to vote me down and play to the crowd! Thanks for your input.

Yep, that’s me, I’m known for being total attention whore. Woohoo, hey guys—all 6 or 7 of you watching this little mini-drama—look at meeeee!!

Last, but not least we have this:

re: #9 Dom

I just don’t understand why you bothered doing that instead of stating an opinion of your own. Isn’t very decent of you.

Okay, I’m just not very decent—whatever works for you.

Are we done now? Do you want to start over, or would you prefer to keep pointing fingers? If the former, then fine, I’ll move on and let bygones be bygones. If the latter, then I’ll simply pretend you’ve ceased to exist (except for down-dings)—I’m really good at that, ask anyone.

Either way, I’ve already spent far too much time on this, time I can never have back. Life’s far too short to waste it on protracted bickering.

11 Dom  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 6:06:54pm

re: #10 CuriousLurker

Okay, against my better judgement I’m going to try engaging with you one more time.

Just insulting. Anyway.

Let’s go over it again, from the top: You started off with a laundry list of complaints about Putin, then followed that by insulting my country & President as looking “like a bunch of weak idiots” and saying the “apathy was breathtaking.” (I assume you’re not American due to the way you spelled “unfavourable”.) You did this without providing any specific examples or offering a single solution.

You think I “insulted your country”? Is that what your outrage is about? Because I gave a straight observation about Putin, and you didn’t, and I can’t be bothered with a whole rigmarole because I “insulted your leader”. That isn’t really a standard for me whether I’m debating an American. a fellow Brit or the brainwashed product of a middle-eastern dictatorship. Sorry, thanks for the education.

Your last line is the only real thing you wrote, and I agree with it.

12 palmerskiss  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 6:45:43pm

re: #11 Dom

i think much of the issue is you did this not just without nuance, but you actually removed any room for nuance…

America and Europe look like a bunch of weak idiots. I think that is what they are. He has been doing this for years and long after Obama, Merkel, Cameron et al have moved on Russia will still be growing its Federation with the finesse of a sledgehammer, with impunity.

13 Dom  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 7:09:57pm

I didn’t remove room for anything anyone has to say, CuriousLurker’s comments were all curiously devoid of actual opinion, notwithstanding I causally listed some grievances that, no, I can’t entirely prove.

Lurker’s insistence is on detail and evidence, but I posted a clear point. If he wants me to find the evidence whereby Putin confidently declared that there was no case to answer over Poland, he can side with the Kremlin there. I simply don’t trust Putin’s behaviour - another instance of his clumsy tells include his refusal to attend the announcement, whose result he supposedly didn’t know, of Russia hosting the World Cup, because he was aggrieved by a BBC documentary aired the previous evening alleging rank corruption. Or his uncomfortable broadcast prior to the Winter Olympics assuring viewers that he, himself, knew many people of the gay persuasion.

The plane crash was another matter in which his behaviour spoke more than his words. Nothing that wasn’t widely known, They were Polish politicians in Russia as an affront to Putin, Their plane was refused landing and landed without communication having dumped fuel, Despite a disconcerting lack of evidence Putin quickly declared no case to answer, in what should have been an international affair. I don’t call that definitive proof, but
I would be Curious to hear a proper opinion on whether to leave Crimea, like Abkhazia, or whether my suggestion that NATO and European armies should deploy and be prepared not just for peacekeeping but for defence is just unacceptable. If so, is that simply because Putin is just too dangerous?

14 palmerskiss  Thu, Mar 6, 2014 9:41:30pm

the way it came across to me was full of absolutes.

That Putin absolutely had to be planning this for months. - no room for spontaneous events in the general grind of life

That Europe and the U.S. are weak - no room for any grey area.

there does not seem to be any indication nor admittance that in regards to iraq, america does not have a strong foundation to criticize other nations aggressive foreign policies.

its so black and white and cut and dry- that was the impression i got -

15 Jayleia  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 1:06:19am

So…they look weak…WHAT ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO?

I want them to do *something* but I have no idea what can be done that has real, positive effects, without having overly negative consequences (I’d kinda like to avoid escalating to a nuclear WWIII and an irradiated earth…I keep most of my stuff here).

If it were up to me, we’d have blown off Sochi, but I’m not the president, much less emperor of the US. So I don’t have to deal with the potential repercussions of that, or with the opinions of various interest groups.

16 palomino  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 3:24:29am

So you want a renewal of the Cold War? Only this time you want us to take actions even more likely to lead to an actual shooting war.

When America’s leaders accept the fact that we can’t run the world and we should stop trying, we will all be better off.

17 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 5:01:35am

re: #13 Dom

First, I should tell you that CuriousLurker is a ‘she’ not a ‘he’. But also I find myself having to echo Palomino on this point: What do you expect NATO to do? We can deploy to protect Poland and that is happening, and we can impose sanctions on Russia and the US is gonna do that. But what we can’t do is throw the Russians out of the Crimea by force, and absent that Putin is going to keep his territorial addition, at least in the short and mid-term.

18 Dom  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 9:18:04am

This is better. The subject got trolled by people who argue as if from authority, really arrogantly. Like some of you (I think) I was commenting here since years before registration so I didn’t need anyone to suggest LGF doesn’t tolerate insulting Obama or Merkel or Cameron! Come on! That kind of kneejerk patriotic, off-point reaction is a load of crap if you wanted to discuss anything. People sometimes got like that about GWB. Sometimes about Obama. It isn’t how I pursue a frank conversation. And (@palmerskiss) that is absolute.

DarkFalcon, I expect that when Putin mobilises NATO mobilises, whatever else gets put on the table. He needs to know that is the deal. That doesn’t mean bombing Moscow, but defending the borders, unless Putin really wants to escalate that far. Even if he would we cannot just let him annexe back the Soviet empire. I was sorry for Georgia, and merely calling politicians “weak idiots” for resuming trade is a generous understatement. (NB Gender is as immaterial as everything she wrote but thank you anyway, best to know!)

Jayleia, there you are, you wouldn’t have tolerated Sochi. That’s a start. What about the World Cup? The other thing I asked for was that NATO stop pussyfooting around and get on Russia’s borders, at least in Ukraine. If Putin isn’t afraid to do this again it is because everyone eventually wants to trade with him again, so my post is bombastic because though I am not claiming to be a seer I have been raising this for some years and hearing the same from Eastern Europeans and nobody in power has an appetite to act. And then annoyingly this whole thread has been a weird evasion of the points, just repeated needling. I appreciate an on-topic opinion such as your own comment. It was never my intention listing some events from very recent history to educate anyone, so I wasn’t expecting those events to be challenged, and I had a punchy point to make. But I then made all that clear and there was still no actual discussion of the points before now.

Posters, as it happens Europe may be gearing for a response this time, and there is a lot of talk about non-military responses that might have some effect, so if anyone wanted to go through that, then really that’s the kind of reply I was inviting. Disagreement is welcome. Information and opinions are welcome.

19 Dom  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 9:36:18am

re: #14 palmerskiss

there does not seem to be any indication nor admittance that in regards to iraq, america does not have a strong foundation to criticize other nations aggressive foreign policies.

There is no such indication, true, but that’s an interesting opinion and thanks for raising it. I am not loving war, I am proposing that Putin is hostile and constantly on the warpath and that it is necessary to get in his way, even at risk of escalation. Are you responding that America should not get involved because of Iraqi blood on its hands? In that case how does America defend its interests and friends from aggression, will that always be the rejoinder? The Iraq invasion was removing a longstanding dictator, and there are many parties to the bloodshed - is consensus about America in Iraq so cut-and-dried as to warrant comparison with Russia now? I can understand the point, but it leaves us very stuck with whatever Putin does next.

20 palmerskiss  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 12:36:49pm

re: #19 Dom

There is no such indication, true, but that’s an interesting opinion and thanks for raising it. I am not loving war, I am proposing that Putin is hostile and constantly on the warpath and that it is necessary to get in his way, even at risk of escalation. Are you responding that America should not get involved because of Iraqi blood on its hands? In that case how does America defend its interests and friends from aggression, will that always be the rejoinder? The Iraq invasion was removing a longstanding dictator, and there are many parties to the bloodshed - is consensus about America in Iraq so cut-and-dried as to warrant comparison with Russia now? I can understand the point, but it leaves us very stuck with whatever Putin does next.

Thanks for the reply - no, I am merely suggesting, that America’s moral position re: the actions of other nations per aggressive foreign policy has been severely compromised.


In the same way a judge who is caught with cocaine has compromised his position on imprisoning other users of cocaine…

21 Dom  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 1:39:43pm

Thank you too. I don’t think that America’s allies will take that view because it would be much more problematic for any of them to go it alone or even to act in concert without running things past greater powers, and Putin is a megalomaniac who has held control for a long time now with no parallel in America. I guess my response is that faced with a sudden land-grab, if defending these countries is just it is just no matter who does it.

22 palmerskiss  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 2:14:03pm

re: #21 Dom

Thank you too. I don’t think that America’s allies will take that view because it would be much more problematic for any of them to go it alone or even to act in concert without running things past greater powers, and Putin is a megalomaniac who has held control for a long time now with no parallel in America. I guess my response is that faced with a sudden land-grab, if defending these countries is just it is just no matter who does it.

Not sure it matters in the long run if our ‘allies’ are concerned or not - the principle of being a nation that is known for gross hypocrisy on the world stage can never be a strong power..

hypocrisy is dangerous - i would suggest - if the united states wants to get involved in a conflict over the Ukraine, it first prosecute those who violated u.s. and international law in regards to iraq.

23 Dom  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 2:32:14pm

Hypocrisy is dangerous, and America and NATO have given very strong assurances of support to Eastern Bloc countries in precisely the eventuality of Russian aggression. This is not something like the removal of Saddam. It is more like the defense of Kuwait, but in this case an aspiring EU member, and most importantly preventing further entrenchment of Putin’s clique, salvaging something of the democratic and open Russia that he has all but destroyed.

24 palmerskiss  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 3:17:25pm

re: #23 Dom

Hypocrisy is dangerous, and America and NATO have given very strong assurances of support to Eastern Bloc countries in precisely the eventuality of Russian aggression. This is not something like the removal of Saddam. It is more like the defense of Kuwait, but in this case an aspiring EU member, and most importantly preventing further entrenchment of Putin’s clique, salvaging something of the democratic and open Russia that he has all but destroyed.

because i actually like that your post inspired a vigorous debate - i put up a page to further it - littlegreenfootballs.com -

25 Dom  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 6:54:21pm

Thanks!

26 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 7, 2014 7:10:18pm

re: #22 palmerskiss

Gross hypocrisy matters far less that firepower when determining what a strong international power is.

The Iraq war is over and done with. No one is going to be brought to trial over it, this being for domestic political reasons if nothing else. The peaceful transition of power in the US is of critical importance, and it would be imperiled by any such action.

27 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 8, 2014 9:50:24am

re: #18 Dom

… The subject got trolled by people who argue as if from authority, really arrogantly. Like some of you (I think) I was commenting here since years before registration so I didn’t need anyone to suggest …

That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time.

28 Dom  Sat, Mar 8, 2014 11:00:45am

wrenchwench, do you really think I should tread carefully about insulting your President and my Prime Minister? It was incidental to my point but I’ll stand by it and I was explaining I don’t need lecturing about that sort of nonsense, much less snarky trolling. If you think that’s an arrogant and contrary position, since all you did was pile on another little snarky nothing, I’ll anyway not care precisely how I put it.

29 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 8, 2014 12:40:41pm

re: #28 Dom

wrenchwench, do you really think I should tread carefully about insulting your President and my Prime Minister? It was incidental to my point but I’ll stand by it and I was explaining I don’t need lecturing about that sort of nonsense, much less snarky trolling. If you think that’s an arrogant and contrary position, since all you did was pile on another little snarky nothing, I’ll anyway not care precisely how I put it.

I don’t care how you tread. I was just pointing out where you did in one sentence the very thing you criticized in the previous sentence.

Since you’ve been around LGF so long (your claim to authority) you should know that claiming to be around LGF ‘so long’ is one of the worst claims to authority there is. There are stalker blogs full of nuts who posted at LGF for a long time.

The only authority a commenter at LGF has is that which other commenters grant you, usually because you earned it.

Once earned, it can also be lost, often by the kind of hubris in your humorous #18.

30 Dom  Sat, Mar 8, 2014 3:06:31pm

Sorry about that. I don’t want authority, ftr.


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