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Senator Barack Obama has told an audience that although he believes Christ died for his sins, those who reject that teaching can also be children of God.
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addison Mar 28, 2008 10:27:01pm |
I can see how by going to his church of hate and anti-Americanism for 20 years he would be completely ignorant of actual Christian doctrine.
John 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Sorry, the Bible isn’t about what Obama believes; it’s about what is written. It took me two minutes to find that verse and I don’t go to Church. Yet Obama is a regular church-goer for his adult life and does not know what most 11-year olds know.
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bubbalouey Mar 29, 2008 3:51:07pm |
re: #2 addison
Add the this one to the evidence, addison:
Romans 10:9-11
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.
According to the bible, you can neither be justified or saved without believing that Jesus is Lord and has risen from the dead, and then confessing it verbally.
Obama doesn’t even know what the minimal requirements are for being a christian. 20 years sitting under the ministry of Rev. Wright and he knows so little as to equal nothing? And people want the judge christianty by what comes out of this minister and his congregation?
Well, maybe Obama is just pandering for votes. Would this make him even worse than Wright? I guess not, since Wright claims to be a minister of the gospel.
| 4 |
SDben5 Mar 29, 2008 6:10:50pm |
I’m no fan of Barack but he is right. A closer examination of the verses quoted reveals that those verses do not comment about what happens to people who do not believe in Jesus.
If a person does not believe in Jesus, but is saved that person is still saved through Jesus whether or not the saved person believes in Jesus or not.
What the commenters have done is committed the logical fallacy called “Affirming the Consequent”:
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/affirmingtheconsequent.html
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bubbalouey Mar 29, 2008 8:06:49pm |
re: #4 SDben5
Using bible verses, would you care to illustrate using how one becomes saved outside of the standards already presented?
After that, would you care to use bible verses to show the fate of those who are not saved?
I want to understand how either you or Obama are correct about any point in this matter.
| 6 |
SDben5 Mar 29, 2008 8:38:36pm |
I would first chastise you for your lack of faith in Jesus. For it is only through God’s grace are you saved and not through your own works such as “believing that Jesus is Lord and has risen from the dead, and then confessing it verbally.”
It is clear from the bible that people were saved and are saved without your manmade requirement of “believing that Jesus is Lord and has risen from the dead, and then confessing it verbally.”
For example, in the transfiguration Jesus met both Moses and Elijah who were both saved without your manmade requirement of “believing that Jesus is Lord and has risen from the dead, and then confessing it verbally.”
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bubbalouey Mar 29, 2008 9:23:06pm |
re: #6 SDben5
Just as I thought, you are unable to reason, or read.
Too smart by half? No, not even that smart.
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SDben5 Mar 29, 2008 10:20:10pm |
That was a good example of the typical ad hominem attack.
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bubbalouey Mar 30, 2008 10:10:32am |
The problem with making that an ad hominem attack is that if it is true, it would completely justify not attempting to reason with you concerning this matter.
I will provide a scriptural argument to counter what you have presented, if you cannot show any evidence that you comprehend the sound reason of what I present, I shall not attempt to proceed further. There is a difference between the works of confessing with the mouth, etc, and the works by which you cannot be saved, and the differences are clearly outlined in the NT.
You began by alluding to the writing of Paul in an attempt to disprove the writing of Paul which I had already presented. I would posit that Paul does not disprove Paul, and this makes your point entirely invalid.
You need to reconcile the two passages from Paul so that they make sense when put together.
What say you?
Below is more scriptural evidence for my original point.
Romans 3:25, 26
For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
Contrary to what you and Obama contend, this passage confirms (again) that it is by believing in Jesus that the sinner is justified, and the understanding is also given that those who knew God by faith, but lived before the advent of Christ, had their justification pushed forward to the works of the cross. This would account for Moses and Elijah who certainly have long believed in the coming of God’s salvation, which was foretold long before they were born (Gen 3:15) and being found with him at the transfiguration, certainly know who he is.
Romans 10:10
For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
I present this scripture again, that we can see that the salvation of the believer is made by confessing verbally (works), which is separated from the justification by faith, which is the gift of God. (Eph. 2:8)
James 2:14
What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?
James 2:17
So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
In these two scriptures we can see that it is again confirmed that a faith without the works which give the outward evidence that the faith resides within the believer is not enough to establish salvation.
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SDben5 Mar 30, 2008 5:40:19pm |
Again, the scripture passages that were cited do not say that those who do not believe in Jesus are not saved. Again, you are “Affirming the Consequent”, see above.
The passages simply talk about those who are or will be saved. It is true that some people who do not believe in Jesus are not saved they have been shown the Gospel of Life and have purposefully rejected it. But it is also true that some people who do not know Jesus are saved. It works both ways, incidentally there are also people who believe in Jesus and are not saved. Matthew 7:21.
It is not because of a peson’s non-Christian religion that a person could be saved. It would be because Jesus judges the heart of each individual.
It would be cruel to believe that God would create this soul, and then condemn him to hell even though he believed and sought God. It would be through no fault of his own that he never heard the Gospel. It would be our fault. It is by the mercy of Christ that people are saved, even if they may not realize it at the moment of death. Jesus is the only Saviour. Those who under free will refuse Jesus, after having been presented the Gospel in an authentic way, will spend an eternity in hell.
Good Luck, God is a God of infinite mercy, He loves you and wants all His children saved.
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bubbalouey Mar 30, 2008 8:46:56pm |
re: #10 SDben5
Again, I have wasted my time trying to reason with the unreasonable.
| 12 |
SDben5 Mar 30, 2008 9:53:01pm |
As I pointed out there was no reason in your duplicitous, self serving, interpretation of the cited bible verses. You made a sophomoric logical fallacy and failed to correct your mistake. Thank God, He is more gracious and reasonable than you.
“For this we toil and struggle, because we have set or hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially of those who believe.” 1 Timothy 4:10
“Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, “In truth, I see that God shows no partiality, Rather in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to Him.” Acts 10:34
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Jetpilot1101 Mar 31, 2008 10:29:00am |
There can only be one way to heaven. I believe that is through Jesus Christ, others disagree. But before you call me a fundamentalist wackjob, please ponder the following question:
If God had provided 1,000,000 ways to get to heaven, would humans have asked for way 1,000,001?
I believe the Bible is pretty clear on Salvation and I also believe God provided one way to heaven because He knew the answer to my previous question.
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