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1 Sionainn  Apr 10, 2014 9:33:07am

He’s getting all sorts of support from the same people who scream about welfare. He’s a squatter, making his living off of our tax dollars. He should have been removed 20 years ago, but it sounds like the BLM was afraid of violence from him and his family. Since I was born and raised in Nevada, I have a lot of friends from here, a few of whom are claiming this is going to be another Ruby Ridge. If there is going to be violence, it’s going to be coming from the Bundys, not from the government. Ugh.

2 wrenchwench  Apr 10, 2014 10:42:25am
3 theheat  Apr 10, 2014 1:53:09pm

Yeah, I posted about this welfare ranching jerkoff and his supporters, who dwell on the hills and plains in the land of Neverwas, in a state of perpetual victimhood. If that group of wingnuts needed a folk hero, he’s delivered in spades.

People like him have existed largely under the radar, and many under the guise of being hardworking all-American farmers.

They aren’t.

These are paranoid, hostile, well-armed, anti-government nutjobs, who have been itching for a showdown like this for years in order to gain public sympathy and support from the mainstream right wing nutjobs.

4 EPR-radar  Apr 10, 2014 1:57:05pm

Can you imagine the wingnut rage if Obama were to dust off this fine warning from Andrew Jackson to a South Carolina congressman regarding nullification:

If one drop of blood be shed there in defiance of the laws of the United States, I will hang the first man of them I can get my hands on to the first tree I can find.

5 theheat  Apr 10, 2014 2:00:00pm

re: #4 EPR-radar

They are rabidly, rabidly, anti-Obama. They’re convinced the commies (anyone not them) have united to take away “their way of life.”

Sounds a lot like the pre Civil War south, no?

I see these freaks all the time on Facebook trading AR-15s for cowboy collectibles, and vice-versa. Shit.Fucking.Nuts.

6 Skip Intro  Apr 10, 2014 3:56:42pm

Are they well-regulated militias?

7 Romantic Heretic  Apr 10, 2014 4:05:37pm

re: #6 Skip Intro

Hell, no. They’re not even medicated!

8 Major Tom  Apr 10, 2014 4:34:42pm

These are the type of people that are itching to have a Ruby-Ridge type event occur during this administration. Hopefully this fizzles out. But if Hannity is promoting it as mainstream, then it could get ugly. This is all occurring in stockpiled arsenal country.

9 Dark_Falcon  Apr 10, 2014 5:08:33pm

re: #4 EPR-radar

Can you imagine the wingnut rage if Obama were to dust off this fine warning from Andrew Jackson to a South Carolina congressman regarding nullification:

If Obama said that, radio hosts would be openly calling for his assassination. And saying that would make a shooting incident almost inevitable. It still wouldn’t be Obama’s fault, but the level of fear and anger generated would be such that it would be highly likely someone would decide it was time to “start the revolution and kill federal officials”.

Which is why Obama will not say anything about this. Neither will Eric Holder. It’s below their pay grade right now and neither one wants to set off the wingnuts’ race panic if that can be avoided (without caving in, it should go without saying).

10 EPR-radar  Apr 10, 2014 5:20:01pm

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

If Obama said that, radio hosts would be openly calling for his assassination. And saying that would make a shooting incident almost inevitable. It still wouldn’t be Obama’s fault, but the level of fear and anger generated would be such that it would be highly likely someone would decide it was time to “start the revolution and kill federal officials”.

Which is why Obama will not say anything about this. Neither will Eric Holder. It’s below their pay grade right now and neither one wants to set off the wingnuts’ race panic if that can be avoided (without caving in, it should go without saying).

I pretty much agree with this assessment of the situation.

However, I also think it is fair to point out the basic insanity of routine law enforcement (i.e., cattle grazing where they shouldn’t) escalating to this level because of right wing militia nonsense that is fueled by the propaganda of Limbaugh and Fox News et al.

11 Dark_Falcon  Apr 10, 2014 7:17:15pm

re: #10 EPR-radar

I pretty much agree with this assessment of the situation.

However, I also think it is fair to point out the basic insanity of routine law enforcement (i.e., cattle grazing where they shouldn’t) escalating to this level because of right wing militia nonsense that is fueled by the propaganda of Limbaugh and Fox News et al.

The militia stuff isn’t really the province of Limbaugh and Fox News, though they do stir up anti-Obama sentiment to an irrational pitch. The militia stuff predates both Rush and FNC by a good margin. That’s not to exonerate Fox News, but more an attempt to establish how things got as bad as they are.

And on the point of how things got this bad, I’m forced to conclude that the Bureau of Land Management was lenient with Clive Bundy for too long. They should have taken firm action a couple years ago, rather than letting things fester and allowing the Bundy family to find supporters. The BLM’s desire to handle things equitably was a good thing, but they took too long in realizing that Clive Bundy is an predatory individual with whom a reasonable settlement is vanishingly unlikely. That should have been accepted a good ways back and then the hammer brought down. Instead, the BLM delayed and that delay let the problem get much worse.

12 EPR-radar  Apr 10, 2014 7:33:52pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

Thanks for the link. It’s good to know that the militia nonsense has its roots in racist blowback from both the Civil War era and the civil rights era.

That history increases the obligation that leaders in the GOP have to repudiate the Confederate and neo-Confederate nonsense they often engage in, so as to stop giving aid and comfort to this violent fringe.

13 theheat  Apr 10, 2014 7:42:11pm

re: #12 EPR-radar

Those GOP leaders will adopt these freaks as their own, because they are. Don’t expect they’ll do anything but exacerbate the situation by re-affirming their victimhood status.

From an earlier Pie-onist Overlord link.

“As rural communities started to collapse,” Davidson writes, the Far Right “could be seen at farm auctions comforting families … confirming what rural people knew to be true: that their livelihoods, their families, their communities—their very lives—were falling apart.” In stark contrast to the government indifference encountered by rural Americans, a range of Far Right groups, most recently the militias, have seemingly provided support, community, and answers.

By the way, the above full article is better than excellent.

14 cinesimon  Apr 10, 2014 11:37:36pm

The police and feds are being remarkably restrained. If they were liberal protesters, or Muslim protesting against hatred in America - they’d all be long ago locked up. Because they know that we’re not going to try to kill them for looking at us funny.

15 cinesimon  Apr 10, 2014 11:39:37pm

re: #12 EPR-radar

IF GOP leadership were decent people, sure. But they’re not decent people. Plus, they’re cowards. They need every vote they can get - the quiet white supremacist constituency is their largest - they can’t ‘afford’ to piss them off.

16 Sionainn  Apr 11, 2014 6:10:03am

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

The militia stuff isn’t really the province of Limbaugh and Fox News, though they do stir up anti-Obama sentiment to an irrational pitch. The militia stuff predates both Rush and FNC by a good margin. That’s not to exonerate Fox News, but more an attempt to establish how things got as bad as they are.

And on the point of how things got this bad, I’m forced to conclude that the Bureau of Land Management was lenient with Clive Bundy for too long. They should have taken firm action a couple years ago, rather than letting things fester and allowing the Bundy family to find supporters. The BLM’s desire to handle things equitably was a good thing, but they took too long in realizing that Clive Bundy is an predatory individual with whom a reasonable settlement is vanishingly unlikely. That should have been accepted a good ways back and then the hammer brought down. Instead, the BLM delayed and that delay let the problem get much worse.

I read an article about this on Fox News the other day and they made out Bundy to be the sympathetic character, leaving out all the facts of the story. It’s bullshit.

17 Dark_Falcon  Apr 11, 2014 8:35:44am

re: #14 cinesimon

The police and feds are being remarkably restrained. If they were liberal protesters, or Muslim protesting against hatred in America - they’d all be long ago locked up. Because they know that we’re not going to try to kill them for looking at us funny.

Liberal protesters would have been locked up because they tend not to have guns, whereas Clive Bundy and his followers are fairly well armed. Once modern firepower enters the picture the risks of an assault rise dramatically, and if enough of that firepower is in the hands of skilled users, then the probability of attacker casualties will approach unity (meaning that it is virtually certain the attacking force will suffer people killed or wounded).

18 [deleted]  Apr 11, 2014 8:55:46am
19 kirkspencer  Apr 11, 2014 9:01:23am

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

The militia stuff isn’t really the province of Limbaugh and Fox News, though they do stir up anti-Obama sentiment to an irrational pitch. The militia stuff predates both Rush and FNC by a good margin. That’s not to exonerate Fox News, but more an attempt to establish how things got as bad as they are.

And on the point of how things got this bad, I’m forced to conclude that the Bureau of Land Management was lenient with Clive Bundy for too long. They should have taken firm action a couple years ago, rather than letting things fester and allowing the Bundy family to find supporters. The BLM’s desire to handle things equitably was a good thing, but they took too long in realizing that Clive Bundy is an predatory individual with whom a reasonable settlement is vanishingly unlikely. That should have been accepted a good ways back and then the hammer brought down. Instead, the BLM delayed and that delay let the problem get much worse.

On the other hand, the BLM’s slow hand has gotten rid of all the other people in that county (and most of the neighboring ones) without showdown or violence. So instead of facing a few dozen (or hundred as reports vary) they’re facing one and his family/supporters.

20 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 11, 2014 9:08:38am

re: #18 Time To Stand

Baaaa.

21 wrenchwench  Apr 11, 2014 9:08:42am

re: #18 Time To Stand

Greetings, hatchling.

(That also has nothing to do with a turtle.)

22 Varek Raith  Apr 11, 2014 9:09:57am

re: #18 Time To Stand

Oh please.
It’s public land.
You want to fight the Feds, go right ahead.
You will be obliterated just like the Confederates.
But we all know most of you won’t fight, you’re too scared.

23 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 11, 2014 9:11:23am

re: #18 Time To Stand

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

24 wrenchwench  Apr 11, 2014 9:12:05am

re: #18 Time To Stand

Be sure to read this post about Bundy, too. I think you’ll enjoy it.

25 [deleted]  Apr 11, 2014 9:12:27am
26 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 11, 2014 9:16:54am

re: #18 Time To Stand

Bundy is nothing but a thief stealing from the population because he is a spoiled child.

What he really deserves is to be spanked and sent to bed without supper like the 5 year old he acts like.

As for the oathbreakers and other militia wanna-be’s do you really think any of them would care if it was a WHITE man in the white house? Of course not.

Now, STFU & STFD before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

27 wrenchwench  Apr 11, 2014 9:26:56am

Huh. Post-and-run. Whooda thunk it.

28 Dark_Falcon  Apr 11, 2014 9:36:42am

re: #27 wrenchwench

Huh. Post-and-run. Whooda thunk it.

And the piece-of-trollshit post is gone. Thanks, Charles!

29 Justanotherhuman  Apr 11, 2014 9:39:01am

How is what these types are doing any different from this, and what white people were saying anything about militias helping them keep their “constitutional rights” like they are the Bundy’s? Yes, the situations are different, one urban, one rural, but the thinking is very similar. They will never understand the hypocrisy they’re showing, or admit that the Bundys are violating the law, either.

npr.org

“MOVE was a radical cult-like group that preached revolution, advocating a return to nature and a society without government, police or technology. The group took up residence on Osage Avenue, a quiet tree-lined street of tidy row houses. Except for the MOVE house. The windows and doors of 6221 Osage Ave. were barricaded with plywood. The group hoarded weapons, built a giant wooden bunker on the roof and used a bullhorn to scream obscenities all hours of the night. “

No one seemed to care that a bunch of Black folks lost their lives, as much as they did the lives lost at Ruby Ridge or even Waco. No one cared that children died on Osage Ave, that the police used excessive force, or anything else about the standoff and final raid by police, or even that the entire block of houses burned to the ground and were replaced by inferior housing.

30 lawhawk  Apr 11, 2014 10:00:45am

The nitwits who are showing up to support this guy’s theft of public resources is just as intelligent as you’d expect.

Tensions boiled over this week when a scuffle between the BLM and Bundy’s supporters ended in violence: Agents reportedly used a stun gun to subdue Bundy’s son and knocked his daughter to the ground. Though called “brutal” by some, the brawl did not land anyone in a hospital or jail.

But the incident did prompt Operation Mutual Aid — a national militia with members from California to Missouri — to visit Bundy’s ranch and set up a camp just in case things got out of hand again.

Before their arrival Thursday, dozens of Bundy’s friends and relatives gathered at a protest camp in solidarity for the recent woes that have colored his rustic ranch.

The militiamen posted a sign: MILITA SIGHN IN (sic).

Traveling from as close as St. George — and as far as Montana — a mix of characters waved picket signs at an encampment just before a bridge over the Virgin River, protesting the BLM’s campaign.

“This is a better education than being in school! I’m glad I brought you. I’m a good mom,” said Ilona Ence, a 49-year-old mother from St. George and Bundy relative who brought her four teenage kids to the ranch. “They’re learning about the Constitution.”

There’s nothing in the Constitution that permits the theft of public resources. You’re not defending someone’s legal rights here. This guy is engaging in grand larceny and trespassing.

Pay the grazing fees and all this disappears. He’s freeloading.

But it all goes back to the way that some out West think that the feds are trying to grab up all the land and turn it into protected lands (national parks/wilderness/monuments, or forests with limited rights for grazing/farming/hunting, etc.) It’s why you’ve got mostly GOPers trying to limit the President’s right to declare lands as preserved under the Antiquities Act and it’s why you’ve got people trying to come to this guy’s defense, ignoring the open and obvious theft of public resources.

They’ll gloss that over and claim that it’s the government hassling this guy who is just trying to make a living. Except that he’s not paying for the right to graze his herd on land that doesn’t belong to him.

Substitute a private landholder, let’s call him Rush, for the feds, and you see just how silly the sovereign citizens movement is in this particular instance. If it was a private landowner, there’d be no question that the guy would have to pay for the right. But now, because it’s the BLM, we’re supposed to ignore his responsibility to pay?

Moreover, you can’t declare a right to federal lands as a result of trespass/adverse possession. So, trying to claim that he’s somehow gained the right to the land doesn’t hold.

31 Justanotherhuman  Apr 11, 2014 10:10:45am

Wrong thread.

32 Sionainn  Apr 11, 2014 10:42:42am

re: #30 lawhawk

The nitwits who are showing up to support this guy’s theft of public resources is just as intelligent as you’d expect.

There’s nothing in the Constitution that permits the theft of public resources. You’re not defending someone’s legal rights here. This guy is engaging in grand larceny and trespassing.

Pay the grazing fees and all this disappears. He’s freeloading.

But it all goes back to the way that some out West think that the feds are trying to grab up all the land and turn it into protected lands (national parks/wilderness/monuments, or forests with limited rights for grazing/farming/hunting, etc.) It’s why you’ve got mostly GOPers trying to limit the President’s right to declare lands as preserved under the Antiquities Act and it’s why you’ve got people trying to come to this guy’s defense, ignoring the open and obvious theft of public resources.

They’ll gloss that over and claim that it’s the government hassling this guy who is just trying to make a living. Except that he’s not paying for the right to graze his herd on land that doesn’t belong to him.

Substitute a private landholder, let’s call him Rush, for the feds, and you see just how silly the sovereign citizens movement is in this particular instance. If it was a private landowner, there’d be no question that the guy would have to pay for the right. But now, because it’s the BLM, we’re supposed to ignore his responsibility to pay?

Moreover, you can’t declare a right to federal lands as a result of trespass/adverse possession. So, trying to claim that he’s somehow gained the right to the land doesn’t hold.

You should read the comments from the geniuses on that article, especially the ones who claim that cattle grazing is great for the land, prevents fires, and feeds the desert tortoise. Teh stupid, it burns.

33 theheat  Apr 11, 2014 1:05:21pm

re: #32 Sionainn

For some illuminating photos of the effects of overgrazing, I invite people to visit the Western Watersheds Project website. Looks like the site itself is having some sub-directory landing page glitches at the moment, but they’ve done a terrific job documenting the effects of grazing cattle on public lands. Western Watersheds also maintains a Facebook page.

And here’s another link published by News3 in Nevada: “Cattle Can Have an Environmental Impact on Landscape.

Of course, that’s all evil sciencey stuff. //

Youtube Video

34 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 11, 2014 1:34:54pm

A couple of thoughts from a farmer’s perspective…

In addition to refusing to pay the grazing/leasing fee, Mr. Bundy also:
1) Allows his cattle to foul springs and other water sources/waterways.
2) Allows his cattle to trample and seriously damage riparian areas.

As a farmer myself, I am forbidden by federal law, from allowing my own livestock to do such things on my PRIVATELY OWNED property.
Those federal regulations are in place precisely because of irresponsible people like Mr. Bundy.
Mr. Bundy apparently has no problem with shitting in his own yard, and everyone else’s as well.

35 EPR-radar  Apr 11, 2014 2:00:12pm

re: #34 Backwoods_Sleuth

A couple of thoughts from a farmer’s perspective…

In addition to refusing to pay the grazing/leasing fee, Mr. Bundy also:
1) Allows his cattle to foul springs and other water sources/waterways.
2) Allows his cattle to trample and seriously damage riparian areas.

As a farmer myself, I am forbidden by federal law, from allowing my own livestock to do such things on my PRIVATELY OWNED property.
Those federal regulations are in place precisely because of irresponsible people like Mr. Bundy.
Mr. Bundy apparently has no problem with shitting in his own yard, and everyone else’s as well.

In other words, Mr. Bundy is a true right wing hero.

The very model of a modern major entrepreneur. //

36 theheat  Apr 11, 2014 2:01:04pm

This is a video still from News 3 Nevada of the effects of Bundy’s cattle on public land, if you want to know what total devastation looks like. And he’s doing all this for free.

Bundy’s awesome stewardsmanship aka overgrazing.

37 The Ghost of a Flea  Apr 11, 2014 2:01:39pm

re: #34 Backwoods_Sleuth

A couple of thoughts from a farmer’s perspective…

In addition to refusing to pay the grazing/leasing fee, Mr. Bundy also:
1) Allows his cattle to foul springs and other water sources/waterways.
2) Allows his cattle to trample and seriously damage riparian areas.

As a farmer myself, I am forbidden by federal law, from allowing my own livestock to do such things on my PRIVATELY OWNED property.
Those federal regulations are in place precisely because of irresponsible people like Mr. Bundy.
Mr. Bundy apparently has no problem with shitting in his own yard, and everyone else’s as well.

My dad’s side of the family were ranchers. Up until a decade ago, we still owned and leased land for grazing. You overgraze and foul a range, you diminish its value.

The stuff Bundy’s doing to land he leased…well, if it was my (private) property, he would have been sued out of existence. A hundred years ago, it would be the kind of thing that started a range feud…you did not fuck with people’s pasture.

38 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 11, 2014 2:03:26pm

re: #35 EPR-radar

In other words, Mr. Bundy is a true right wing hero.

The very model of a modern major entrepreneur. //

Only because he’s mooching off the taxpayers.
I’m fortunate that my farm encompasses the headwaters of a major waterway in my county. I take stewardship of that EXTREMELY seriously. If there was a landowner upstream of me (which, fortunately, is not the case) who was blatantly disregarding said best practices and federal regulations, I would be said landowner’s worst nightmare.

39 Justanotherhuman  Apr 11, 2014 2:11:45pm

A good story on this over at the SPLC, with a little more detail.

splcenter.org

40 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 11, 2014 2:11:58pm

I’ve come to the conclusion that these RW nutters are always bloviating about teh poors living high on the hog on teh welfares or getting all that Obama free stuffs, but when THEY do it (a la Bundy) it’s all it’s our tax money and we’re just taking our share that we already paid for, so shut up!!11!!

41 theheat  Apr 11, 2014 2:17:43pm

re: #39 Justanotherhuman

I’ve been eyeballing these crazy bastards a long time. I’m so glad to see SPLC is on to them. They need to be exposed.

42 EPR-radar  Apr 11, 2014 2:20:42pm

re: #41 theheat

I’ve been eyeballing these crazy bastards a long time. I’m so glad to see SPLC is on to them. >They need to be exposed.

I agree. One significant piece of the puzzle I had not been aware of is the link between militia nuttiness and Civil War/Civil Rights butthurt on the part of racists that is explained in the article DF linked at #11.

43 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 11, 2014 2:21:09pm

This really needs to be a front page article, just so all the comments scattered in other pages can be collected here.

44 theheat  Apr 11, 2014 2:26:26pm

re: #42 EPR-radar

I keep telling my friends about this, and they’re probably sick to death of hearing about it, but I know these people through and through. They pose a very real threat. Damn, they love their guns. Add crazy. You have a big, big problem.

Someday maybe I’ll write a novel about these flyover country fucks and retire. Until then, I’m positively gleeful they’re being exposed.

45 theheat  Apr 11, 2014 2:29:07pm

re: #43 Backwoods_Sleuth

I think it’s big news. “The quiet people nobody ever gave a thought to…”

46 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 11, 2014 2:33:11pm

re: #45 theheat

I think it’s big news. “The quiet people nobody ever gave a thought to…”

It needs to be bigger news. These people are nutz.

47 EPR-radar  Apr 11, 2014 2:34:50pm

A while back the DHS put out a report on right wing extremism in the US.

Seems to me this is the kind of thing they would have covered in that report, and that sensible people both (D) and (R) might have wanted to pay attention to that report to perhaps find a way to tone things down a bit.

Things didn’t work out that way because the US right just had to have a freak out about this report instead of actually dealing with any of it.

48 theheat  Apr 11, 2014 2:37:50pm

re: #47 EPR-radar

One reason is the right can count on this contingent for their undying support. Where the teajadis have proven to be an inconvenience, these people are typically viewed as good, hardworking, Americans, that put food on the table.

Don’t confuse these assholes with regular farmers and ranchers. It’s two different critters. The public never thought about it enough before to make that distinction, but it’s an important one.

49 Backwoods_Sleuth  Apr 11, 2014 3:01:13pm

Nevada isn’t even a major cattle state.
My state (Kentucky) is the largest cattle-producing state east of the Mississippi and fourth nationwide in number of cattle producers (38,000+) and 14th in inventory (2,090,000 head).
Nevada is 37th with 455,000 head.
Kentucky doesn’t graze on federal lands. We have real farmers and ranchers here who have personal skin in their operations.

50 Dark_Falcon  Apr 11, 2014 5:45:57pm

re: #44 theheat

I keep telling my friends about this, and they’re probably sick to death of hearing about it, but I know these people through and through. They pose a very real threat. Damn, they love their guns. Add crazy. You have a big, big problem.

Someday maybe I’ll write a novel about these flyover country fucks and retire. Until then, I’m positively gleeful they’re being exposed.

Do me one favor, though: Cool it with the ‘flyover country’ line. It offends the other side for a cheap laugh, something that is not wise to do.

51 wrenchwench  Apr 11, 2014 5:55:45pm
The video below is part of the public comments during an emergency Moapa Valley Town Board Meeting regarding Cliven Bundy’s standoff with armed agents on his Nevada Ranch that has grazing rights on public land. A cowboy and friend of the Bundy family warns that this is much bigger than this ranch, and tells the Bureau of Land Management that if they fire the first shot, “we will fire the rest!”

Youtube Video

From here.

Agenda 21 appears in the second (which is the last) comment.


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Marvel Studios’ Black Widow - Official Teaser Trailer Marvel Studios' Black Widow is in theaters May 1, 2020. ► Subscribe to Marvel: bit.ly► See the poster: marvel.com► Learn more: marvel.com Follow Marvel on Twitter: ‪@marvelLike Marvel on Facebook: ‪facebook.com For even more news, stay tuned to:Tumblr: ‪marvelentertainment.tumblr.comInstagram: ...
Thanos
6 days, 13 hours ago
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Commanded to Love Some reflections on the the crucial role emotion can play in keeping us stuck in abuse — and in recovery and immunisation. You can support the channel at: patreon.com--opening quote:‘feel crime’ — the crime of feeling an emotion that ...
Thanos
6 days, 15 hours ago
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