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1 Aunty Entity Dragon  Apr 30, 2014 8:34:37pm

You know of course that the Protestant paramilitiaries killed an awful lot of Catholics in Northern Ireland…and that Catholics were kept out of schools, many jobs and the RUC for decades, and were denied property ownership.

If Gerry Adams was the bogeymen, it was because British racism and religious bigotry made him.

After British troops slaughtered unarmed civilians on Bloody Sunday…peaceful protest went out the window.

2 palmerskiss  Apr 30, 2014 9:02:49pm

re: #1 Aunty Entity Dragon

You know of course that the Protestant paramilitiaries killed an awful lot of Catholics in Northern Ireland…and that Catholics were kept out of schools, many jobs and the RUC for decades, and were denied property ownership.

If Gerry Adams was the bogeymen, it was because British racism and religious bigotry made him.

After British troops slaughtered unarmed civilians on Bloody Sunday…peaceful protest went out the window.

sure - and Gerry Adams made each and one of those honest Catholics look bad.

I appreciate nuance (paisley was clearly implicated in my page) but if your nuance is that Gerry Adams does not represent monstrosity, then I take umbrage at that nuance.

“In a country and a time where something as innocuous as your car licence plate can ‘out’ your sectarian affiliations (even if wrong - try driving a Republic of Ireland registered automobile through the border in Cavan and on to Belfast in 1995 - it often ended in tragedy) you learn quickly to personify those fears.”

that is nuance - i clearly made an effort to represent a catholic point of view when i outlined a social ill related to Gerry Adams and his peers.

I added the nuance because i actually sympathize with the republican, not loyalist point of view, as does the vast majority of the Island.

that still does not make Gerry Adams any less of a bogey man, any less terrorizing, or any less of a monster.

3 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 1, 2014 6:22:05am

re: #2 palmerskiss

I think Celtic dragon’s point was that if it wasn’t Gerry Adams, it would have probably been someone else just like him. The conditions created in Ireland by the actions of Britain over the years are a large part of the reason why there was violent, terroristic resistance to them. It wasn’t just a bunch of Irish dudes with ‘fuck the man’ attitudes.

In a way, you chose your word well. He’s a bogey-man, but he wasn’t some lone assassin, working in the darkness, he was part of groups that were supported by even larger groups, because there was a real, actual grievance at work, due to centuries of mistreatment of Ireland and political domination of Ireland by Britain.

Gerry Adams also participated in the peace process, first by calling for several ceasefires, then by entering the negotiations and accepting compromise, and then by ordering the IRA to lay down arms. He also condemned bombings carried out by splinter groups from the IRA.

So when telling his history, don’t let your hatred for him leave out that part. He was an evil man who did evil things, but he also stepped back and negotiated peace and compromise and pledged his organization to a peaceful path.

4 Aunty Entity Dragon  May 1, 2014 7:29:28am

re: #3 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

You said it better than I did.

In any event, British colonialism created the monsters. When you look at the American Revolution…people like Gerry Adams would have been seen as heroes. Here in the Carolinas, the war was nasty, personal and savage. War crimes and atrocities happened on both sides, and revenge killings after the war occurred into the 19th century. The very term “lynch law” comes from a Virginia militia leader and “judge” named Lynch who hanged British loyalists after a cursory kangaroo court.

Bannastre Tarleton, the British dragoon and leader of the Tory Legion was infamous for not taking prisoners (the act of killing men who tried to surrender was called “Tarleton’s quarters” …as in giving no quarter). Of course, we started doing the same thing and massacring British troops trying to surrender as well.
Moving on…

When the British Army stopped protecting people from the Protestant paramilitaries who were beating and shooting Catholic civil rights activists and started shooting unarmed Catholics themselves on Bloody Sunday…you created a generation of Gerry Adams types right then and there. When you take away any and all ability of people to peacefully protest…violence and militarism is inevitable. When the law puts itself into disrepute (protecting killers in the British Army and the RUC, suspending Common Law and Habeas Corpus and detaining thousands without charge or trial) lawless men are empowered. British policies and British atrocities created Gerry Adams and his followers.

It’s worth mentioning that none of the British soldiers who murdered 14 people that day have ever been charged, despite the renewed government inquiry from 2010 that concluded the shootings were unjustifiable.

5 palmerskiss  May 1, 2014 1:28:42pm

re: #4 Aunty Entity Dragon

You said it better than I did.

In any event, British colonialism created the monsters. When you look at the American Revolution…people like Gerry Adams would have been seen as heroes. Here in the Carolinas, the war was nasty, personal and savage. War crimes and atrocities happened on both sides, and revenge killings after the war occurred into the 19th century. The very term “lynch law” comes from a Virginia militia leader and “judge” named Lynch who hanged British loyalists after a cursory kangaroo court.

Bannastre Tarleton, the British dragoon and leader of the Tory Legion was infamous for not taking prisoners (the act of killing men who tried to surrender was called “Tarleton’s quarters” …as in giving no quarter). Of course, we started doing the same thing and massacring British troops trying to surrender as well.
Moving on…

When the British Army stopped protecting people from the Protestant paramilitaries who were beating and shooting Catholic civil rights activists and started shooting unarmed Catholics themselves on Bloody Sunday…you created a generation of Gerry Adams types right then and there. When you take away any and all ability of people to peacefully protest…violence and militarism is inevitable. When the law puts itself into disrepute (protecting killers in the British Army and the RUC, suspending Common Law and Habeas Corpus and detaining thousands without charge or trial) lawless men are empowered. British policies and British atrocities created Gerry Adams and his followers.

It’s worth mentioning that none of the British soldiers who murdered 14 people that day have ever been charged, despite the renewed government inquiry from 2010 that concluded the shootings were unjustifiable.

sorry then - yes what i meant is - he is the personification of all our fears - the human face of the sum of all fears - not that he personally went around kneecapping and murdering and pillaging = he was the ostensible face of an entity who targeted people like me - while living right next door, or down the street, or across the bog.

bloody sunday is a tragedy - in Ireland it has reached even religious proportions of purity as a symbol of the Irish Catholic struggle.

And Britian’s culpability in creating the troubles cannot be underestimated, most of the Irish mainland put most of the blame on the loyalists, who consistently for years interrupted (With bombs and assassinations) any effort by the republicans and british to end the struggle.

These days - everyone is wary of the loyalists - who for the most part have lost political power in the light of ‘power sharing’ - where while a tentative peace has held, if it were to start again - likely it will come from them.

what i was trying to highlight was - how difficult it was to exist on the wrong side of the sectarian lines (i grew up protestant, in a catholic area) where the specter of one man and his pet army hung omnipresent.

6 palmerskiss  May 1, 2014 1:33:06pm

thank you both for the debate :)

7 palmerskiss  May 1, 2014 1:40:48pm

btw - I just want to add - that the SDLP - the non-violent center catholic party in Northern Ireland - who actually stood up to both the IRA, the breakaway groups, and the loyalist RUC, RUF, and their breakaway groups and refused to resort to violence is largely forgotten - simply because they were peaceful and pragmatic.

the SDLP gave hope of a political rather than militaristic solution to the troubles, and deserve to be mentioned.

8 MerryMissLissie  May 1, 2014 9:27:04pm

This anecdotal stuff is unprofessional and borderline hysterical. Can you rely on more objective, evidence-based conclusions? You know, like you require of those you hold yourself out to be an ally to.

9 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 2, 2014 3:37:25am

re: #8 MerryMissLissie

This anecdotal stuff is unprofessional and borderline hysterical. Can you rely on more objective, evidence-based conclusions? You know, like you require of those you hold yourself out to be an ally to.

[Embedded content]

She wasn’t making an argument, though, beyond “Gerry Adams was a frightening man”, which is just objectively true. People were frightened of him.

Are you arguing Gerry Adams wasn’t a bogeyman to Protestants in Ireland or something?

Also, Reason is a pretty terrible magazine.

10 palmerskiss  May 2, 2014 11:54:28am

re: #8 MerryMissLissie

This anecdotal stuff is unprofessional and borderline hysterical. Can you rely on more objective, evidence-based conclusions? You know, like you require of those you hold yourself out to be an ally to.

[Embedded content]

i do believe you need to read some journalism ethics works - this is not inappropriate anecdotes


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