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1 Skip Intro  May 4, 2014 10:02:50am

Isn’t this the guy “Great American” Sean Hannity was supporting the other day?

2 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 4, 2014 10:05:22am

Saw that on Gawker. It looks like it’s his “statement” after he murdered them, not the actual murder tape. I shudder to think what that sounds like.
And, for the record, I didn’t listen to the released tape, and I won’t listen to it now, and you can’t make me! ლ(ಠ_ಠლ)

3 Rightwingconspirator  May 4, 2014 10:43:47am

What a ridiculous title.

That was a killer plain and simple. Had he set up a deadly bear trap it’s the same kind of asshole killer. It’s really unfair to use the term ‘responsible gun owner” like that and broad brush…. well guess who. Apart from this topic that kind of thing is often frowned on on this blog. Hmmm.

4 Skip Intro  May 4, 2014 10:50:43am

re: #3 Political Atheist

Why is that? He was a perfectly responsible gun owner right up until he murdered them, just like most responsible gun owners who commit murder. Is there some way to distinguish between responsible and irresponsible gun owners that the NRA would allow?

You just don’t seem to get that.

5 Rev_Arthur_Belling  May 4, 2014 10:52:02am

Also, he didn’t just murder them. He really sort of tortured them and then murdered them, if I have all the facts straight. It’s a sick case all around.

6 Rightwingconspirator  May 4, 2014 10:59:28am

re: #4 Skip Intro

Why is that? He was a perfectly responsible right up until he murdered them, just like most responsible gun owners who commit murder. Is there some way to distinguish between responsible and irresponsible gun owners that the NRA would allow?

You just don’t seem to get that.

You think not?
Everyone born here is an upstanding law abiding American until they kill rape or torture someone. or commit some crime obviously. When a critic of our culture looks at one of those and calls him a fine upstanding American as you have the killer above, do you not see the broad brush there?

I’m not objecting to a call out of a killer, or the fact he used a gun. Or what a repellent human he is.

I object (again btw) to your broad brush attack on the rest of us who do have and shoot guns. It;s simply unfair and really an intellectual cheat, an appeal to raw emotion.

I think that put’s our disagreement here in clear terms. I hope so.

7 Rightwingconspirator  May 4, 2014 11:26:12am

re: #4 Skip Intro

Is there some way to distinguish between responsible and irresponsible gun owners that the NRA would allow?

You just don’t seem to get that.

Let’s look at that straw man a second. Contrary to the critics view the NRA is not in charge. If they were gun control laws would be far fewer if any at the Federal level. Or the State level. Fact is, and here I will agree-We really need tighter gun control laws like universal registration etc. So the tug of war goes back and forth from legislators in places like California where things are better to places where they are far worse. States rights to set a stricter regime have been validated hundreds or thousands of times via gun violation convictions. The NRA can not strike down a law. It can not pass a law or sign it. Only those in congress or the senate that keep getting re elected time after time (despite record low approvals) can legislate.

Responsible parties (besides the NRA, admin apathy, or the congress) in making gun control harder-Those places that encroached so badly on the 2nd Amendment they forced the hand of a reluctant NRA and a more reluctant SCOTUS to put it right in Heller. The NRA can not strike down a law. But the Supreme Court did and now we all have that individual right by way of self defense. Not the militia. Self defense. That’s the standing law. California has a big new legal wrinkle to deal with in Federal district court. Now thanks to those places it’s harder to address gun control.

8 William Barnett-Lewis  May 4, 2014 11:27:36am

re: #4 Skip Intro

Bull. This was _premeditated_ murder that he was convicted of. By definition he was not a responsible gun owner as he was intending to break the law. You can spin your agenda as you please but that won’t make yellow into blue. You might as well call a mob hit man a responsible gun owner. Perhaps you do. But it won’t make it so.

If you believe there is no such thing as a responsible gun owner and that you want guns banned, fine. Be honest about it, say so and work at repealing the 2nd Amendment.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have a rifle and a couple of revolvers to clean as I stopped by the local public range (on my way home from church) where I heinously massacred uncounted innocent paper plates.

9 The Ghost of a Flea  May 4, 2014 12:24:40pm

This isn’t about ownership of a firearm. It’s about feeling an entitlement to use lethal force. It was okay to kill them because it made him less afraid, and they didn’t really count as real people.

And frankly, that’s a problem in right-wing rhetoric that extends beyond gun ownership. The basis of the current social conservative wave is that, in numerous variations and modes, large chunks of the US population are not really citizens: LGBT individuals, the wrong kind of women, “liberal elites,” young people, intellectuals, non-Christians, the wrong kind of Christian…the list is long, and the disdain is not of consistent intensity, but the drumbeat is always there. And in extreme cases, the despised are viewed as less than human. Morality, and thus the proper administration of violence, is a matter of affiliation first. When this worldview intersects with violence, it cannot recognize nuance or circumstance: either you’re the Right Kind of Victim, or you deserved it. And that distinction is theirs to make, by gnostic means, not a matter of law or consensus.

These are the people that brought you the gay panic defense. These are the folks who are just certain that dead black child must have been doing something wrong, no matter what the evidence says to the contrary, and that the raped woman must have done something wrong.

Byron Smith’s recorded words are not his own. They’re glosses of a strident, enclosed culture group that feels constantly threatened—physically and spiritually—but also holds lawful authority in contempt because the former will not recognize their arbitrary decisions as legitimate. They purposefully blur of the line between retaliatory violence and self-defense.

10 ObserverArt  May 4, 2014 12:50:35pm

Political Atheist,

I mention this in the realm of (political) language, and not so much about guns.

Isn’t the use of the term ‘responsible gun owner’ in a sense a common statement used both pro and con? Has it not almost crossed into the political language as a tool used by the media? And if that is the case, is Skip’s use of the term not a common usage?

And believe me, I also understand that it would rile up decent gun owners. But it riles up gun owners to a degree both ways too. The NRA uses it all the time in its diatribes. So, as a phrase it is well, a loaded gun. Here it upset some decent realistic and lawful gun owners with its use. I, not being a gun owner, but liking words, took Skip to me something different.

I guess my point is, part of the problem with gun debate as with all political debate, is that people can’t debate when they get caught up in language and fail to understand how that language is being used.

Now maybe Skip did want to poke a stick in some eyes. I can’t speak for him. But knowing it is a term that can be loaded, do we always assume that it is used as a dig at ALL gun owners?

And that is the other part of the use of the phrase. It does in a way have a connotation that speaks to a cliche ‘image’ of the crazy gun owner that is a temper tantrum away from being a killer. Yes, he had guns, went to shows, hunted, etc. and went from what he saw himself as, a responsible gun owner, to a killer. That, like all cliche images is aimed at a cartoon of the crazy gun owner. That like all cliches is also based on some stories of real occurrences of people that saw themselves as responsible becoming criminals.

In other words, I’d be amazed to see you or William Barnett-Lewis go over to Bundy’s ranch and get all worked up. I would expect some of the cliched ‘responsible gun owners’ that Skip may be alluding to to be at Bundy’s.

I don’t see the Bundy Brigade of supporters as responsible gun owners. They haven’t shot or killed anyone, but they in a way play to the cliche that Skip is using. I’m willing to bet both of you and William find those guys all as nut cases. They see themselves as patriots, etc. Do they not see themselves as responsible gun owners? See what I mean?

11 Rightwingconspirator  May 4, 2014 1:03:14pm

re: #10 ObserverArt

I do see what you mean. I share the anger at the rhetoric from the NRA and the gun extremists. And that’s why I’m being very specific in my objection. I have no problem with the rest of the Page. Had this post stuck out as a rare kinda thing from the author I’d have taken it differently or skimmed on by. What we have here is a drumbeat and I picked one or two to speak up.

That having been said there are a few things that just stand out as generally don’t go there, or perhaps call out worthy if you will.
Goodwin, ad hominem, The broad brush. Straw man. I’m thinking that applies with this subject too, whatever the other side says in it’s propaganda.

12 Dark_Falcon  May 4, 2014 2:38:16pm

re: #8 William Barnett-Lewis

Bull. This was _premeditated_ murder that he was convicted of. By definition he was not a responsible gun owner as he was intending to break the law. You can spin your agenda as you please but that won’t make yellow into blue. You might as well call a mob hit man a responsible gun owner. Perhaps you do. But it won’t make it so.

If you believe there is no such thing as a responsible gun owner and that you want guns banned, fine. Be honest about it, say so and work at repealing the 2nd Amendment.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have a rifle and a couple of revolvers to clean as I stopped by the local public range (on my way home from church) where I heinously massacred uncounted innocent paper plates.

Quite Concur. Byron Smith wasn’t a typical of people defending their homes; The evidence presented made clear that Smith, angry about his home having been burglarized in the past, decided to set up surveillance systems in his house and buy a gun. He did this not to protect himself but to take revenge by killing the next people who broke into his home. It was his advance decision to kill that resulted in the young woman in this case being killed (the guy with her might well have died in any case, given how he was shot, but she should have survived). And it was on the basis of his clear intent to kill out of revenge that he was convicted of Murder in the 1st.

It’s worth remembering that Byron Smith acted in complete contravention of self-defense law as it has always been understood. He tortured and killed someone whom he had disabled and then, rather than call the police as any self-defense class will tell you to do, he wrapped the bodies of the people he’d killed in a tarp while he decided his next move. Those are not the actions of a responsible gun owner, those are the actions of a psychopath.

13 KiTA  May 4, 2014 3:52:26pm

Isn’t this guy currently being played up by Hannity as the next, well, Bundy?

14 Dark_Falcon  May 4, 2014 3:59:35pm

re: #13 KiTA

Isn’t this guy currently being played up by Hannity as the next, well, Bundy?

No. Hannity has looked at a case of a homeowner in Michigan, who shot a young black woman through his screen door, but he has not advocated the case of Byron Smith. This might be in part because Smith’s victims were white, but mostly its because smith’s actions were indefensible even to the great majority of wingnuts.

15 The Ghost of a Flea  May 4, 2014 9:50:38pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

No. Hannity has looked at a case of a homeowner in Michigan, who shot a young black woman through his screen door, but he has not advocated the case of Byron Smith. This might be in part because Smith’s victims were white, but mostly its because smith’s actions were indefensible even to the great majority of wingnuts.


Sean Hannity has covered the Byron Smith case.

16 Jayleia  May 5, 2014 4:09:51am

A lot of these “responsible gun owners” were legal gun owners, but few of them were anything resembling responsible. And their irresponsibility poses a danger to the public.

There is, therefore, a disconnect between the laws that hold us accountable, and our actual responsibilities. This disconnect is accepted by the right, and encouraged, demanded and fetishized mostly by them.

I have no problem with responsible gun owners, its just that we have louder and better funded “responsible” gun owners than we do responsible gun owners.


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