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1 Jayleia  May 15, 2014 11:15:11am

Whatever the guy in that one letter was on…DAMN.

2 Skip Intro  May 15, 2014 11:16:55am

re: #1 Jayleia

Whatever the guy in that one letter was on…DAMN.

And he can own all the guns he can afford.

Later on in the article, we discover

This woman, who has been confined to a wheelchair after being shot herself, was confronted after a press conference in her driveway at her home. From Mother Jones:

“After a fundraiser one night during the program, Longdon returned home around 10 p.m., parked her ramp-equipped van and began unloading herself. As she wheeled up to her house, a man stepped out of the shadows. He was dressed in black and had a rifle, “like something out of a commando movie,” Longdon told me. He took aim at her and pulled the trigger. Longdon was hit with a stream of water. “Don’t you wish you had a gun now, bitch?” he scoffed before taking off.”

3 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 11:51:48am

Hmm, We don’t call the stalkers “responsible bloggers” do we? If you could stop that kind of mistake, I’d have no disagreement with the article at all.

4 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 12:08:03pm

re: #3 Rightwingconspirator

Hmm, We don’t call the stalkers “responsible bloggers” do we? If you could stop that kind of mistake, I’d have no disagreement with the article at all.

Are you saying that the people writing are irresponsible gun owners?

5 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 12:18:56pm

re: #4 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Are you saying that the people writing are irresponsible gun owners?

I’ll stick with what I actually said. Staying on point about Skips habit of broad brush associations with some awful people.

6 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 12:23:58pm

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

I’ll stick with what I actually said. Staying on point about Skips habit of broad brush associations with some awful people.

I’m trying to figure out what you actually meant, though. The majority of people writing in probably are ‘responsible gun owners’ in that they probably own guns that they don’t use irresponsibly.

Is your complaint that there a lot of responsible gun owners who didn’t write to this guy acting like nutjobs?

7 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 12:30:04pm

re: #6 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m trying to figure out what you actually meant, though.

My objection is as stated above, I object to the broad brush attack that subtitle puts forth. I have no other objection to this Page or any other point to make at this time.

Edit-Okay my one other point is agreeing that kind of abuse from anyone aimed at a person with an honest heartfelt opinion is a soul sucking awful thing to do.

8 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 12:37:55pm

re: #7 Rightwingconspirator

My objection is as stated above, I object to the broad brush attack that subtitle puts forth.

I don’t get what broad-brush attack you’re seeing there. As I said, is what you’re saying that these guys are only a minority of responsible gun owners?

9 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 12:50:18pm

re: #8 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Skip has a habit of broad brushing all gun owners into the kind of thing we see above. If you don’t see it at this point, not sure how to make it clear to you.

10 EPR-radar  May 15, 2014 12:58:09pm

re: #9 Rightwingconspirator

Skip has a habit of broad brushing all gun owners into the kind of thing we see above. If you don’t see it at this point, not sure how to make it clear to you.

It depends on the definitions being employed of “responsible gun owner” and “irresponsible gun owner”.

It is a tendentious (but defensible) move to silently use the NRA’s definitions of these terms. NRA ideology has all gun owners as by definition “responsible gun owners” unless/until they commit a gun-related crime. Thus the hooting and hollering described in the OP is necessarily from “responsible gun owners” (so defined), since there is no evidence that these people have committed gun-related crimes.

11 Jayleia  May 15, 2014 1:00:13pm

re: #8 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Exactly, sometimes I get the feeling that Skip lumps the <wingnut>”responsible”</wingnut> gun owners in with the responsible gun owner

12 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 1:04:08pm

re: #9 Rightwingconspirator

Skip has a habit of broad brushing all gun owners into the kind of thing we see above. If you don’t see it at this point, not sure how to make it clear to you.

Well you could make it clear to me by answering my extremely straightforward questions, but for some reason you don’t want to do that.

re: #11 Jayleia

Exactly, sometimes I get the feeling that Skip lumps the <wingnut>”responsible”</wingnut> gun owners in with the responsible gun owner

But what makes the wingnuts not responsible gun owners?

13 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 1:23:36pm

re: #12 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Well you could make it clear to me by answering my extremely straightforward questions, but for some reason you don’t want to do that.

Correct I’ll not be led down that speculative path but thanks anyway. Perhaps another time we could chat about how dickish internet posters may or may not be what they say they are. Female, gun owner, or if they just post weird shit to argue as so many do.

14 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 1:25:04pm

re: #12 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

But what makes the wingnuts not responsible gun owners?

Gun safety and egregious politics may or may not be related at all.

15 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 1:29:56pm

re: #10 EPR-radar

It depends on the definitions being employed of “responsible gun owner” and “irresponsible gun owner”.

It is a tendentious (but defensible) move to silently use the NRA’s definitions of these terms. NRA ideology has all gun owners as by definition “responsible gun owners” unless/until they commit a gun-related crime. Thus the hooting and hollering described in the OP is necessarily from “responsible gun owners” (so defined), since there is no evidence that these people have committed gun-related crimes.

Ah, well I am not silently using the NRA definition. My use is more pragmatic than rhetorical. Safe & legal procurement, handling, use and storage.

16 EPR-radar  May 15, 2014 1:34:18pm

re: #15 Rightwingconspirator

Ah, well I am not silently using the NRA definition. My use is more pragmatic than rhetorical. Safe & legal procurement, handling, use and storage.

I think Skip is using the NRA definition with the “responsible gun owner” pages. I can see why you view this as an annoying broad-brushing, but IMO the real problem is the poisoning of the well by the NRA et al.

17 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 1:39:23pm

re: #13 Rightwingconspirator

Correct I’ll not be led down that speculative path but thanks anyway. Perhaps another time we could chat about how dickish internet posters may or may not be what they say they are. Female, gun owner, or if they just post weird shit to argue as so many do.

I wasn’t asking you to go down any speculative path.

Who are you calling dickish?

18 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 1:40:42pm

re: #16 EPR-radar

I think Skip is using the NRA definition with the “responsible gun owner” pages. I can see why you view this as an annoying broad-brushing, but IMO the real problem is the poisoning of the well by the NRA et al.

Yeah, exactly. As soon as I saw it, it seemed like it was a sarcastic swipe at the NRA’s broad-brush. Not as any sort of implication that all gun owners act like this, but that a minority—who do fit the definition, almost certainly, of responsible gun owners—do.

19 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 2:10:30pm

re: #17 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I wasn’t asking you to go down any speculative path.

Who are you calling dickish?

I could not answer your question above about the wingnuts gun habits without speculating about them.

The dickish are those that wrote the hate letters. The stalkers. Etc. Not you or anyone here, not Skip. And since Skip did not reference the NRA I see no tie to that definition. Of course one would normally give a gun owner the same benefit of the doubt we give car owners. Once taught the safety and operation, and after some practice- that’s a responsible driver until they drive irresponsibly. Same as a gun owner or user.

Let me try for the umpteenth time to present my point in a way you can comprehend from me. It sucks to lump good people in with bad ,like the subtitle.

20 Skip Intro  May 15, 2014 2:13:26pm

I simply follow the NRA guidelines as to who is a responsible gun owner and who is not. Until you shoot someone, you are, by definition, a responsible gun owner.

Even after you shoot someone, if you reside in a Kill At Will state, you may still be a responsible gun owner and still keep all the guns you want (see Zimmerman, George). You can even draw down on Federal agents performing their job and still be a RGO.

So, the problem is there is absolutely no way to tell a RGO from a NRGO until it’s too late.

Once someone explains to me how to do that in a way that the NRA will allow, I will certainly take that into consideration in future posts.

21 EPR-radar  May 15, 2014 2:28:01pm

re: #19 Rightwingconspirator

I could not answer your question above about the wingnuts gun habits without speculating about them.

The dickish are those that wrote the hate letters. The stalkers. Etc. Not you or anyone here, not Skip. And since Skip did not reference the NRA I see no tie to that definition. Of course one would normally give a gun owner the same benefit of the doubt we give car owners. Once taught the safety and operation, and after some practice- that’s a responsible driver until they drive irresponsibly. Same as a gun owner or user.

Let me try for the umpteenth time to present my point in a way you can comprehend from me. It sucks to lump good people in with bad ,like the subtitle.

The problem with this analogy is that we do not have the NCA (National Car Association) vigorously and successfully lobbying for unrestricted driving and for car features (e.g., side mounted chainsaws) that make them more lethal when someone decides to drive them through a crowd of people on a sidewalk.

If such an organization existed, you bet there would be more broad brushing of car drivers in general.

I suspect it is very difficult for gun owners to appreciate just how thoroughly the NRA has poisoned things for people whose only exposure to gun politics is often via the NRA’s insanity and the responses to it.

22 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 2:46:50pm

re: #20 Skip Intro

I simply follow the NRA guidelines as to who is a responsible gun owner and who is not. Until you shoot someone, you are, by definition, a responsible gun owner.

It’s been a while since I was an NRA instructor. Maybe ten years. Unless the safety and handling courses from the NRA have completely changed, your description of their definition flies in the face of what they teach. Need a link? Plenty available. I left the NRA for good reason, and now run on credentials from elsewhere.

That definition sure does serve a critic well though.

re: #21 EPR-radar

If such an organization existed, you bet there would be more broad brushing of car drivers in general.

And you would be wrong to do so here IMO.

How about this-Please. Just refrain from lumping the good with the bad because we have guns. The only thing stopping me from giving this a +1 is the subtitle and or it’s lack of a sarc tag. I’d rather work with reasonable critics together for universal registration etc., than argue over rhetoric from them or the NRA.

23 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 3:16:24pm

re: #19 Rightwingconspirator

I could not answer your question above about the wingnuts gun habits without speculating about them.

It is really improbable that these letters are all coming from irresponsible gun owners, though. Being a responsible gun owner doesn’t mean that you can’t also be a raving paranoid whackaloon.

And since Skip did not reference the NRA I see no tie to that definition. Of course one would normally give a gun owner the same benefit of the doubt we give car owners. Once taught the safety and operation, and after some practice- that’s a responsible driver until they drive irresponsibly. Same as a gun owner or user.

Er, that is the NRA definition.

How about this-Please. Just refrain from lumping the good with the bad because we have guns. The only thing stopping me from giving this a +1 is the subtitle and or it’s lack of a sarc tag. I’d rather work with reasonable critics together for universal registration etc., than argue over rhetoric from them or the NRA.

But that is the point. The good and the bad are lumped together, because they have guns, to the extent that they make up the community of people who have guns— and I’m just talking about people who own them legally.

This goes back to the previous conversation that you bailed out on: The ‘firearms community’, like any interest community, contains the bad as well as the good. Part of what I am trying to change in gun culture is the attitude that owning a gun or not is a purely personal decision that nobody should ever criticize; instead, the firearm ‘community’, or at the least experienced teachers, sellers of guns, etc., should dissuade people from owning guns who, while fitting the technical legal definition to own them, aren’t going to be truly responsible owners. In addition, people who think they need a gun for self defense based on inaccurate ideas about the frequency of home invasions and the utility to them of a gun in one should be disabused of that notion.

24 Skip Intro  May 15, 2014 3:36:06pm

re: #22 Rightwingconspirator

It’s been a while since I was an NRA instructor. Maybe ten years. Unless the safety and handling courses from the NRA have completely changed, your description of their definition flies in the face of what they teach. Need a link? Plenty available. I left the NRA for good reason, and now run on credentials from elsewhere.

My information is based on NRA VP Wayne LaPierre and his response to Sandy Hook. He wants more “good guys with guns” everywhere; in schools, in shopping malls, everywhere because SECOND AMENDMENT and FREEDOM!!! And it’s dangerous out there, and they’re coming to get you, the Muslims, the gang-bangers, the knock-downers, the gun grabbers, they’re all coming after YOU, and YOU better be scared because the government can’t protect YOU and YOU better be glad the NRA has your back.

The problem always is he never defines what a “good guy with a gun” looks like or how we’re supposed to know when a good guy is about to become a bad guy.

Maybe the first step in having a reasonable discussion about guns in society is for the NRA to stop SCARING THE SHIT OUT OF PEOPLE.

Ya think?

25 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 4:27:12pm

re: #23 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

But that is the point. The good and the bad are lumped together, because they have guns, to the extent that they make up the community of people who have guns— and I’m just talking about people who own them legally

So you contend the broad brush is okay on this topic? Ordinarily that kind of a logical flaw in an argument is a pretty poor quality response in any discussion.

Chalk that as another place where we part ways.

And yeah I’ll be “bailing out” as you so colorfully put it (regardless apparently of # of posts or time spent so far in these discussion) as we talk past each other or just rehash old arguments. The benefit does not justify the time or effort.

Look at Show Users now, I see four people still in with myself as one. I have no idea how many unregistered stick around, I suspect very few. Given the lack of fresh info or points made, not surprising that it’s few.

Oh you are not there. Did you bail out too? All this time and effort to put off a rather simple objection-To an ordinarily objectionable logical error.

26 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 4:35:39pm

///

27 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 5:02:41pm

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

So you contend the broad brush is okay on this topic? Ordinarily that kind of a logical flaw in an argument is a pretty poor quality response in any discussion.

No, I’m saying you don’t get the intent of the ‘broad brush’. It’s not actually saying that all gun owners are like these people. Not at all.

Chalk that as another place where we part ways.

Cool, check another place that you make an assumption that’s wrong.

And yeah I’ll be “bailing out” as you so colorfully put it (regardless apparently of # of posts or time spent so far in these discussion) as we talk past each other or just rehash old arguments. The benefit does not justify the time or effort.

And I disagree with this characterization. I feel that you often completely fail to engage with what I’m actually saying, instead just repeating your assertions over and over.

Oh you are not there. Did you bail out too? All this time and effort to put off a rather simple objection-To an ordinarily objectionable logical error.

Nope, I didn’t bail out.

28 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 5:40:59pm

re: #27 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Nope, I didn’t bail out.

The image was a sarc version of myself. Out for the reasons given. These discussion just are not helpful to anyone or at all productive. I’ll be filtering what I reply to from you on this subject rather finely. I’m fatigued with getting badgered by you.

29 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  May 15, 2014 5:51:13pm

re: #28 Rightwingconspirator

The image was a sarc version of myself. Out for the reasons given. These discussion just are not helpful to anyone or at all productive. I’ll be filtering what I reply to from you on this subject rather finely. I’m fatigued with getting badgered by you.

The conversations are not productive because you don’t actually engage with what I’m saying.

I would like for your rights to be protected. I would like for needful people to be able to own guns and use them to protect themselves, and for hunters to be able to hunt and teach their kids how to hunt.

For this to continue to be the case, gun culture is going to have to reform and become more responsible. There’s no chance anytime soon of restrictive gun laws being passed, but in the future, unless things change, they will.

The biggest threat to gun rights does not come from nanny-staters or wild-eyed liberals, but from irresponsible gun owners, from Wayne LaPierre, from people who shoot themselves, relatives, while handling guns carelessly.

What I want to have with you is a conversation about the role of responsible gun owners in helping to inform others about gun safety, including that not everyone—in fact, I would say not even a majority of people—are going to be responsible gun owners. Instead, on this point, you retreat to saying that it is simply an individual choice, everyone gets to decide for themselves. This is the attitude I find deeply problematic, and which you refuse to engage with me on, the idea that, as an instructor and as an enthusiast, you have an obligation to teach others about gun safety in a broader perspective, including that they may not be able to responsibly own guns.

I am not proposing any new gun laws, I am not proposing any political power be used to achieve this. And yet, somehow, I’m a bogeyman on this subject to you. If I, a completely reachable, reasonable person who is not advocating more restrictive gun laws, am someone you can’t even handle talking with on this subject, how are you going to possible convince anyone who is more gun-phobic, or wants stronger regulations?

30 EPR-radar  May 15, 2014 9:02:08pm

re: #29 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The biggest threat to gun rights does not come from nanny-staters or wild-eyed liberals, but from irresponsible gun owners, from Wayne LaPierre, from people who shoot themselves, relatives, while handling guns carelessly.

This is very true. A single data point is provided by my own views, which until relatively recently were middle of the road, neither strongly pro-gun nor strongly anti-gun.

Then I became aware of the NRA’s charming policy of ginning up paranoia among the subset of gun owners that are gun nuts by using the corpses of mass shooting victims as props, along with various other outrages.

Now my views would be seen as extreme by many. I would like to see a technically sound assault weapon control or ban. I would also like to see the second amendment repealed.

Let gun rights advocates argue their positions in courts on the basis of an unenumerated right. Perhaps that will encourage the evidence gathering that, thus far, the NRA and GOP have been conspicuously uninterested in pursuing. It might also curb the intolerable arrogance of the NRA and other second amendment absolutists.

I realize that repealing the second amendment isn’t going to happen, but it seems no more utopian to me than stringent federal handgun control.

The technically sound assault weapon control/ban would be doable if the NRA et al. could compromise at all. There must be a way to define weapons that enable relatively untrained people to kill large numbers of other people unusually quickly, and it is only common sense to have these be more stringently controlled.

31 Rightwingconspirator  May 15, 2014 9:49:59pm


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