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1 Shiplord Kirel  Jun 26, 2014 7:19:04am

Worth noting: Lubbock Power and Light, whose board is composed of neo-confederate libertarians, will shut off water service if payment is 3 WEEKS past due. LP&L collects all city utility payments in one combined billing. If the whole isn’t paid on time, the water is shut off FIRST, apparently on the theory that this will put the maximum pressure on the proles to beg, borrow, or steal the necessary funds.

2 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 9:13:22am

Tough Problem. Apparently, though, someone believes that a water system can be run without revenue. It’s not like those silly employees who run the water system and maintain it need paychecks or pensions or any of those things. No, Detroit was just a paradise until the dictator was appointed right? And naturally the neighbor beats his wife so why can’t I argument makes perfect sense. Let’s be egalitarian and shutdown those business like Joe Louis Arena that are behind in their water bills. It’s not like the people who work in those places need jobs either. The piece above has all the signs of childishness one expects when someone tries to reduce a complex problem to ideological bullshit.

3 Romantic Heretic  Jun 26, 2014 9:32:37am

re: #2 1Peter G1

That’s an interesting piece of ideological bullshit you’ve posited there.

4 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 26, 2014 9:35:47am

those lazy whining moocher parasites should just take buckets to the lakeshore if they need water so much!!1111
and take a bath at the same time!!11!!

///good freaking grief……

5 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 9:51:27am

re: #2 1Peter G1

when someone tries to reduce a complex problem to ideological bullshit.

You mean like all those wingnuts memes HURR HURR DETROIT WAS DESTROYED BY TEH YOONYUNZ & TEH LIBRULZ!!!!!!

6 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 9:57:44am

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

Well, as a matter of fact, I lived the dream. Detroit is my city. And I have forgotten more about it than you or the author of this post has ever known. And I still know more than you do. Now perhaps you will explain how you maintain a water system that distributes water to largely vacant neighborhoods, is ancient and decrepit, without money. Is this accomplished with pixie dust? The people and materiel to operate and maintain it cost nothing do they? Any idea what the median income is for Detroit? Any idea how to pay for this and all other municipal services in the light of the fact that everyone who could move out of Detroit has? Nope. You don’t. What you have is ignorance.

7 wrenchwench  Jun 26, 2014 10:07:26am

re: #6 1Peter G1

And you have ignorance PLUS arrogance! YOU WIN.

8 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 10:08:17am

re: #5 Pie-onist Overlord

No Detroit was taken down by white flight. If you knew fuck all about Detroit you would know that it is surrounded by quite well off tax jurisdictions like Farmington Hills and Grosse Pointe. Not one nickel of the revenue of that ring of municipalities goes to support Detroit. What Detroit has is a population reduced by almost fifty percent from its height and a legacy of obligations to employees with no revenue to pay it. It has neighborhoods with virtually no residents but sewers and electrical service and water supply to maintain and operate and not enough taxpaying people to pay for it. It’s ancient industrial base is almost gone leaving only intensely polluted land no on would touch with a million foot pole. The population it has is poor. And it exists in a state where the population by and large wishes it would just die. That is Detroit’s problem.

9 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 10:08:30am

re: #6 1Peter G1

Well, as a matter of fact, I lived the dream. Detroit is my city. And I have forgotten more about it than you or the author of this post has ever known.

Fuck you, I was born and raised in Detroit and I am in the city every day.

10 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 10:12:48am

Obviously you TURN OFF WATER TO ABANDONED PROPERTIES FIRST before you go after houses with people still living in them.

Since access to running water is a critical public health issue, the DWSD should work closely with low-income residents with payment plans and assistance.

How difficult is that to comprehend.

11 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 10:15:56am

re: #9 Pie-onist Overlord

And you think Detroit’s problems started with the appointment of a manager? Tell what is wrong with my summary immediately above please. You can’t solve a problem you don’t understand and you very clearly do not have a clue about the nature of these problems. Look at your own piece dammit. How many people live in Detroit and how many bills were unpaid? How the fuck do you expect to pay employees and maintain a water system without revenue.

12 Dr. Matt  Jun 26, 2014 10:18:46am

re: #6 1Peter G1

Well, as a matter of fact, I lived the dream. Detroit is my city. And I have forgotten more about it than you or the author of this post has ever known. And I still know more than you do. Now perhaps you will explain how you maintain a water system that distributes water to largely vacant neighborhoods, is ancient and decrepit, without money. Is this accomplished with pixie dust? The people and materiel to operate and maintain it cost nothing do they? Any idea what the median income is for Detroit? Any idea how to pay for this and all other municipal services in the light of the fact that everyone who could move out of Detroit has? Nope. You don’t. What you have is ignorance.

Go.Fuck.Yourself.

13 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 10:37:54am

Looks like I don’t even have to comb TCOT for wingnut argle bargle, they are so accommodating and present themselves right at the door, so to speak.

14 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 10:44:34am

re: #11 1Peter G1

Where did (or maybe I should say DO) you go to high school, Cranbrook or Country Day? Those are the only two schools I can think of that offer courses in Asshole.

15 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 10:47:39am

re: #7 wrenchwench

Here’s some more fact masquerading as arrogance. When Detroit raised a billion dollars it had to pay off accrued interest on previous debt or they wouldn’t have gotten the billion dollar loan at all. And if they hadn’t borrowed the money they previously borrowed their employees, fire dept, police dept and municipal employees wouldn’t have gotten paid at all never mind have to worry about pensions. And those despised banks? You know who’s money they lend? Their depositor’s money. And those people are somewhat reluctant to have their money loaned to people who won’t or, in this case, mostly can’t repay it. So you can play those stupid foolish games or trying to pretend reality isn’t what it is but the truth is that the population of Detroit can hardly afford fuck all. What ever idiot at the Guardian who pretends to be an economist can certainly state boldly that places like Detroit have a right to borrow money they can’t repay but they still have to figure out a way to make someone lend it.

16 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 10:49:25am

re: #13 Pie-onist Overlord

And you still haven’t presented a single fact or argument relating to Detroit that contradicts a single thing I have said. I actually have some solutions btw.

17 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jun 26, 2014 10:49:32am

re: #15 1Peter G1

That’s just, like, your opinion, man.

18 wrenchwench  Jun 26, 2014 10:50:17am

re: #15 1Peter G1

I hope you personally have plenty of water. Those straw men could go up in flames with just a spark.

19 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 10:58:50am

re: #16 1Peter G1

I actually have some solutions btw.

We ARE NOT selling the art treasures to Alice Walton.

20 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 11:05:44am

re: #10 Pie-onist Overlord

Well that’s most of Detroit right now. So if you shut off the water to abandoned homes that does what exactly? (They do that anyway person who lives in Detroit. Abandoned houses get stripped of their plumbing almost instantly. You should know that.) Does it lower the cost of providing service to have only two houses turned on in a neighborhood of forty houses? I’ll put on my engineer hat and ask myself. No it doesn’t. You have a bit of a problem my friend. You have excused most of the population of Detroit from paying the bills that keep the city of Detroit alive. Man you must hate those unionized municipal workers. Why do you want them to work for nothing?
Don’t feel bad I have a lot less patience with the right wings nuts who helped try and kill Detroit. At least your hearts in the right place.

21 EPR-radar  Jun 26, 2014 11:05:57am

Because the top fraction of a percent in the US cannot be bothered to make the economy work for the rest of us, the legitimacy of even something basic like “you have to pay for your utilities” is pretty much gone.

22 wheat-dogghazi  Jun 26, 2014 11:10:57am

My mom used to say, you can’t get blood from a turnip. If the goal of shutting off residents’ water is to force them to pay, then the water board may be disappointed. In the meantime, not having potable water presents a health risk to the community. What should those 300,000 people do, book rooms in a hotel to wash up? Buy lots of jugs of drinking water to flush the toilet? if they could do that, they’d have paid their water bills by now.

23 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 11:12:12am

re: #20 1Peter G1

Man you must hate those unionized municipal workers. Why do you want them to work for nothing?

MOAR PROJECTION than the IMAX 3D at The Henry Ford.

24 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 11:14:25am

re: #20 1Peter G1

You shouldn’t. Or any art works. Good thing too because mostly they can’t. The most valuable pieces were donated with covenants that do not permit them to sold.
Let’s try this: Detroit has large number of nearly vacant neighborhoods but little industrial zoned land that anybody would want. There is no money for remediation that isn’t federal. And it would take decades. Detroit needs clean serviceable cheap brown lands for development. A straightforward solution is to concentrate families in neighborhoods and raise the empty neighborhoods for clean land. This would dramatically lower operating costs for everything from street lightning to sewers and recreate viable neighborhoods that don’t look like Hamburg after the US air force visited.

25 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 11:15:44am

re: #23 Pie-onist Overlord

Ah so you’ve figured out who is going to pay them! Awesome! Tell me more. I’m anxious to hear your wisdom.

26 wrenchwench  Jun 26, 2014 11:18:15am

27 wheat-dogghazi  Jun 26, 2014 11:18:29am

re: #24 1Peter G1

So, let’s relocate entire neighborhoods, raze the now uninhabited neighborhoods, and peace will reign for a thousand years.

Who pays the bill? And who’s going to convince people to move out so you can tear down their homes?

28 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 11:22:48am

re: #24 1Peter G1

A straightforward solution is to concentrate families in neighborhoods and raise the empty neighborhoods for clean land.

CONCENTRATING. That sounds familiar. Let me think.

29 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 11:24:09am
raise the empty neighborhoods for clean land.

It’s RAZE.
But the same freaking “genius” also said upthread that the land has been poisoned by 100 years of industrial runoff and is worthless for agriculture.

30 Shiplord Kirel  Jun 26, 2014 11:24:32am

They have buckets, don’t they? And the Detroit river is right there. Problem solved. Hey, it works in Mogadishu and they don’t even have a river.

31 Flying Squirrel Girl  Jun 26, 2014 11:27:22am

There is no money for infrastructure, but there IS money to move people into concentrated neighborhoods and then raze their homes?

32 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 11:32:43am

You know who else CONCENTRATED people into neighborhoods?

33 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 11:34:50am

re: #4 Backwoods_Sleuth

See. That the problem with idiots. They don’t like what they hear so they invent what they hear. How are you any different from the right wing nuts? I mentioned unions not once but here right now in this sentence. And certainly not as a cause of Detroit’s distress. Because they aren’t.

34 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 11:44:07am

re: #27 wheat-dogghazi

Well there is this thing called eminent domain. And they can receive additional compensation in the form of larger renovated housing in renewed neighborhoods. Right now a home in most of Detroit is worth nothing.
So you start with seed money to fix up the homes in a selected neighborhoods and relocate families to increase density while reducing costs. This will make police and fire services more responsive as well. You raze and rezone the empty neighborhoods into light industrial zoning. Which btw was the model that initially made Detroit great. Just drive through and you can see all the old factories centered in neighborhoods where the workers lived and were employed. That’s how you do that.

35 Flying Squirrel Girl  Jun 26, 2014 11:44:36am

re: #33 1Peter G1

Your quote from #20: “Man you must hate those unionized municipal workers.”

Nothing worse than a RWNJ who won’t own it.

36 EPR-radar  Jun 26, 2014 11:48:22am

Eminent domain, eh? The bridge troll should be at the top of this particular list.

37 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 11:48:31am

re: #32 Pie-onist Overlord

Really? That’s the best you’ve got? Godwin? Well strap on a bomb and head down to the nearest university. You need to take out whatever faculty they have devoted to urban planning. You know those people who seek to increase population concentrations as the way of most reliably and efficiently reducing our footprint on this earth? They must be Nazis too. Jesus !

38 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 26, 2014 11:48:45am

re: #33 1Peter G1

See. That the problem with idiots. They don’t like what they hear so they invent what they hear. How are you any different from the right wing nuts? I mentioned unions not once but here right now in this sentence. And certainly not as a cause of Detroit’s distress. Because they aren’t.

I didn’t mention unions. Why are you saying this to me?

39 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 11:51:09am

Forcibly relocating populations is not “urban planning”

40 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 26, 2014 11:55:39am

re: #33 1Peter G1

See. That the problem with idiots. They don’t like what they hear so they invent what they hear. How are you any different from the right wing nuts? I mentioned unions not once but here right now in this sentence. And certainly not as a cause of Detroit’s distress. Because they aren’t.

And, for the record, I was not responding to you in my #4 comment. I was commenting on the predictable wingnut response, which are the point of this particular page.
Also, apparently you are too new here to recognize the “wingnut” and “dudebro” fonts, which indicate satirical representations of those particular groups’ very predictable reactions.

41 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 11:56:55am

re: #29 Pie-onist Overlord

Are you sure you’ve ever been in Detroit? I don’t see how you ever could have been there and not know anything about it. At no time in its’ history were industrialized or polluted land such as is found in the Rouge River complex ever converted to residential land. The residential lands are not polluted. And that’s the only kind a land fit for any kind of development.

I’ve read some of your stuff. Do you know anything about anything besides hurling cant and drivel? That’s a less than subtle hint. If you want to debate a policy do so. And don’t whine so much. It’s very unbecoming.

42 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 26, 2014 11:57:55am

re: #29 Pie-onist Overlord

It’s RAZE.
But the same freaking “genius” also said upthread that the land has been poisoned by 100 years of industrial runoff and is worthless for agriculture.

But those brownfields will be just PERFECT for all that toxic Koch tar sands crap that used to be stored in the bridgetroll’s property.
(wish that was a joke…)

43 1Peter G1  Jun 26, 2014 11:59:22am

re: #38 Backwoods_Sleuth

It was intended for pie-onanist overlord. who did. My apologies.

44 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 26, 2014 12:00:38pm

GAZE

45 wrenchwench  Jun 26, 2014 12:03:22pm

re: #43 1Peter G1

It was intended for pie-onanist overlord. who did. My apologies.

You can’t spell very well.

And you’re rude.

Go away.

46 Flying Squirrel Girl  Jun 26, 2014 12:07:44pm

re: #43 1Peter G1

See. That’s the problem with idiots. Can’t even keep track of who said what on a message thread that’s numbered FFS.

47 Romantic Heretic  Jun 26, 2014 12:40:17pm

re: #25 1Peter G1

Ah so you’ve figured out who is going to pay them! Awesome! Tell me more. I’m anxious to hear your wisdom.

Actually it’s really simple.

Taking one B2 bomber out of service and transferring the money to Detroit would cover water quite nicely.

You, sir, are a classic case of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Do you have any idea how much a cholera epidemic would cost the US? Do you really want such a thing to happen and solidify the opinion of the rest of the world that the US is a Third World country?

48 Romantic Heretic  Jun 26, 2014 12:47:55pm

re: #27 wheat-dogghazi

So, let’s relocate entire neighborhoods, raze the now uninhabited neighborhoods, and peace will reign for a thousand years.

Who pays the bill? And who’s going to convince people to move out so you can tear down their homes?

Actually, that happened in Paris when Haussmann redesigned the city. The poor were simply evicted and driven north of the city to fend as best they could.

For some reason those people voted Communist for the next century and more, when they had the vote.

There’s that damned song in my head again.

49 wheat-dogghazi  Jun 26, 2014 7:31:35pm

re: #34 1Peter G1

Well there is this thing called eminent domain. And they can receive additional compensation in the form of larger renovated housing in renewed neighborhoods. Right now a home in most of Detroit is worth nothing.
So you start with seed money to fix up the homes in a selected neighborhoods and relocate families to increase density while reducing costs. This will make police and fire services more responsive as well. You raze and rezone the empty neighborhoods into light industrial zoning. Which btw was the model that initially made Detroit great. Just drive through and you can see all the old factories centered in neighborhoods where the workers lived and were employed. That’s how you do that.

This sounds great in theory, but practice is another issue.

1. Eminent domain requires a project already approved and presumably voted on by the voters or their representatives. A major project such as the one you propose would be months, if not years in the making.
2. Seed money. From whence does it come? Even to fix up one neighborhood would require several hundred million dollars, or more if you include public area landscaping.
3. This kind of demolition, eviction and major relocation has been tried before. They don’t always turn out as rosy as you imagine. Robert Moses in New York City pushed through a major urban renewal project to benefit one of his pet highways, destroying and uprooting a vibrant, but poor Manhattan neighborhood in the process. The replacement housing turned into the “Projects.”
4. Increased density does not improve police and fire responsiveness. It can exacerbate existing social problems, such as crime. See my #3.
5. Light industrial zoning is a fine idea, but who will occupy said areas? Luring occupants would require tax incentives, thereby decreasing tax revenues for the project.
6. You assume the workers would be able to find jobs in the zoned areas. That’s a big assumption, as the now-relocated residents’ skills may not be suited for the industries you assume will magically appear.
7. When Detroit was developed a century ago, the growth industry was the automobile. The vibrant auto industry allowed Detroit to grow in leaps and bounds. For Detroit to regain its former strength, it would need a similar growth industry to supplement existing industries. What do you propose?
8. Finally, you overlook one reason for all those empty and abandoned properties — the subprime mortgage crisis of 2006-2008 and the bursting of the real estate bubble. Many of those properties were foreclosed and are still nominally owned by the mortgagors, who have done nothing to keep them up.

50 FemNaziBitch  Jun 28, 2014 8:40:43am

re: #41 1Peter G1

Are you sure you’ve ever been in Detroit? I don’t see how you ever could have been there and not know anything about it. At no time in its’ history were industrialized or polluted land such as is found in the Rouge River complex ever converted to residential land. The residential lands are not polluted. And that’s the only kind a land fit for any kind of development.

I’ve read some of your stuff. Do you know anything about anything besides hurling cant and drivel? That’s a less than subtle hint. If you want to debate a policy do so. And don’t whine so much. It’s very unbecoming.

Hatchling, you aren’t making a good first impression.

51 Dark_Falcon  Jun 28, 2014 9:07:59am

Having reviewed the thread and downdinging the troll for the crap it flung, I do however feel obligated to say that Martin Lukacs piece in the Guardian is a poor one. The problems begin by his invocation of Naomi Klein’s seriously problematic book The Shock Doctrine, and then they continue with Lukacs not getting into the issues Detroit has faced since the 60’s while blaming the city’s problems solely on external forces. Overall he treats the city as if it is just a helpless victim in need of rescue, whereas the government and people of Detroit do at minimum bear a large measure of the blame for the city’s crisis.

The last example of error I cite is the following paragraph:

Having made his reign democracy-proof, Detroit’s emergency manager has proceeded to drive the city toward bankruptcy. With the bankruptcy dominating media headlines across the country, the real nature of Detroit’s crisis has been obscured and ignored. It has left the banks and corporations free to pursue a liquidation of the city’s assets. And nothing is off the table.

The assertion about the city’s emergency manager can be legitimately argued. so I do not fault Lukacs for it. What I do fault him for is for posting a link to a piece of community advocacy that does not in fact offer an explanation of what Detroit’s ‘real crisis’ actually is. That’s not a swipe at the community group that prepared the plan Lukacs linked to, instead its a swipe at him for using a link that did explain what he said it would. Proper journalists don’t screw up like that.

52 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 28, 2014 9:12:22am

re: #6 1Peter G1

Well, as a matter of fact, I lived the dream. Detroit is my city. And I have forgotten more about it than you or the author of this post has ever known. And I still know more than you do. Now perhaps you will explain how you maintain a water system that distributes water to largely vacant neighborhoods, is ancient and decrepit, without money. Is this accomplished with pixie dust? The people and materiel to operate and maintain it cost nothing do they? Any idea what the median income is for Detroit? Any idea how to pay for this and all other municipal services in the light of the fact that everyone who could move out of Detroit has? Nope. You don’t. What you have is ignorance.

Youtube Video

53 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 28, 2014 10:54:35am

Parking this here:

54 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jul 1, 2014 12:07:40pm

Parking this one, too:


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