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1 blueraven  Jun 27, 2014 2:30:50pm

One of the few sane commenters on that site asks the pertinent question

Would it be too much to ask WHERE this took place? Was the incident 300 yards into the US, or was this 10 miles from the border? The real question is “could this have been an accident or was a major effort made to cruise well into the US to fire on the guys on the ground?”

In fact it happened 100 yards inside the US border.

Early this morning, a Mexican law enforcement helicopter crossed approximately 100 yards north into Arizona nearly 8 miles southwest of the Village of San Miguel on the Tohono O’odham Indian Nation while on a drug interdiction operation near the border. Two shots were fired from the helicopter but no injuries or damage to US property were reported. The incident is currently under investigation.

- Andy Adame, U.S. Border Patrol Spokesperson

Really, must we freak out over every incident without waiting for the facts?

Sure, there is always a possibility of something worse and there should be an investigation, but the most obvious explanation is that they were in the middle of some drug operation that went slightly awry.

Thank God no one was injured.

2 Charles Johnson  Jun 27, 2014 6:52:46pm

re: #1 blueraven

Great catch.

This is why I immediately distrust stories like this.

3 Charles Johnson  Jun 27, 2014 6:56:48pm

“Mexican authorities contacted the U.S. and apologized for the incident.”

But that won’t stop the right wing blogs and media sites from trying to turn this into an international incident.

4 CuriousLurker  Jun 27, 2014 6:59:05pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

“Mexican authorities contacted the U.S. and apologized for the incident.”

But that won’t stop the right wing blogs and media sites from trying to turn this into an international incident.

And somehow make it Obama’s fault.

5 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 27, 2014 9:52:22pm

re: #1 blueraven
re: #2 Charles Johnson

Great catch.

This is why I immediately distrust stories like this.

Can someone show me what facts are in error? Or are we all to ignore the story completely because some make too much of it?

6 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 27, 2014 10:54:32pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

A military aircraft flying across the border is a small incident. An armed military craft flying across is a noticeable incident. Apologies expected etc. Discussions to avoid a repeat etc.

Kinda like a citizen crossing into Mexico with a semi tractor truckload of ammunition. Or a trunk full of guns. Except those civilians have far and away less training than a military pilot entrusted with live loaded weapons. Oh and neither fired a shot.

Flying across in an armed craft and firing on uniformed US officers of the law is most certainly an international incident.
And indicative of how out of control things are getting in Mexico. Cartels, mass violence, corruption and apparently military pilots a bit short on navigation skills and rules of engagement.

7 blueraven  Jun 28, 2014 9:46:46am

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

Can someone show me what facts are in error? Or are we all to ignore the story completely because some make too much of it?

Not necessarily facts in error, but rather omission of facts such as where the incident took place and then there is your very own impression that;

it seems a very unlikely mistake

I think it sounds very much like a mistake. I would apply Occam’s razor in thinking that is the most logical explanation. Again, it should be investigated.

Let’s wait and see.

8 wrenchwench  Jun 28, 2014 9:53:19am

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

Can someone show me what facts are in error? Or are we all to ignore the story completely because some make too much of it?

We engage the 48 hour rule and respond to the facts, not react to the pre-fact hype.

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

Flying across in an armed craft and firing on uniformed US officers of the law is most certainly an international incident.
And indicative of how out of control things are getting in Mexico. Cartels, mass violence, corruption and apparently military pilots a bit short on navigation skills and rules of engagement.

In this case, indicative of the immigration situation.

U.S. and Mexican law-enforcement officials were at odds on Friday over whether a Mexican helicopter involved in an operation to rescue 39 migrants from alleged kidnappers this week crossed into Arizona and fired.

The U.S. Border Patrol said in a statement Friday that a Mexican law enforcement helicopter crossed the border by about 100 yards at about 5:45 a.m. Thursday morning and fired two shots.

[…]

An official with the Mexican Attorney General’s Office said Friday that there was an operation early Thursday morning near the Arizona border involving two Mexican helicopters, one from the attorney general’s office and another from the army.

But he said neither of the helicopters crossed the border and fired.

“They never crossed the border, not helicopters and not bullets,” the official said, adding that U.S. authorities had been informed of the operation because of the proximity to the border.

The police action in Mexico’s Sonora state was an effort to rescue 39 migrants, some Mexican and some from Central America, who were being held on a property just 150 meters, or 165 yards, from the border with Arizona, the official said.

[…]

48 hours are up. Mayne we should give it another 12 to 24 while they sort things out.

Another denial:

[…]

As helicopters from the Mexican Attorney General’s Office and the Secretary of National Defense approached the ranch, they were fired upon by the traffickers, Zeron de Lucio said. He said those were the only shots fired.

The incident happened a little over 100 yards from the border, he said.

“I don’t believe we crossed the border, because we had our (navigation devices), but it was exactly 100 meters from the border,” he said, according to a transcript of a conference he held with reporters in Mexico City.

He also said the operation was coordinated beforehand with the CBP.

He said Mexican authorities believe the ranch was being used to smuggle 400 migrants per day into the U.S during the summer season.

[…] [Emphasis added.]

And now the first part of your comment, responded to second:

A military aircraft flying across the border is a small incident. An armed military craft flying across is a noticeable incident. Apologies expected etc. Discussions to avoid a repeat etc.

Kinda like a citizen crossing into Mexico with a semi tractor truckload of ammunition. Or a trunk full of guns. Except those civilians have far and away less training than a military pilot entrusted with live loaded weapons. Oh and neither fired a shot.

Since the border patrol is pretty much shooting Mexican civilians with impunity, maybe they decided not to press for an apology for something they say they didn’t do.

And one more thing, just because I have arcane knowledge: the place this happened is really on both sides of the border. The Tohono O’odham Nation straddles the US/Mexican border and people crossed freely until the 80’s. Enforcing the border there is still more difficult than most places.

9 blueraven  Jun 28, 2014 11:04:54am

I think a lot of the outrage over this stems from the US Marine jailed in Mexico over the guns. At least that is what I see in the comment sections on various websites.

I am amazed how so many think because he is an American, he is not subject to the laws of Mexico.

So yes, as CL said above…somehow this will be Obama’s fault.
Not so much the incident in question here, but in equating the two you see ugly comments such as we should have left that helicopter in a burning heap on the ground. Because Obama won’t DEMAND the release of that Marine.

10 Major Tom  Jun 28, 2014 2:01:48pm

I honestly wonder how many Right Wing assholes fire into Mexico on a daily basis. Does anyone have an account of that? I don’t believe, for one instant, that it doesn’t occur.

11 1Peter G1  Jul 1, 2014 3:54:00am

In this day of GPS and night vision and advanced radar and both ground control and airborne control you still managed to bomb the shit out of Canadian troops in Afghanistan. At worst, you be the judge.

12 Rightwingconspirator  Jul 1, 2014 1:30:23pm

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

Can someone show me what facts are in error? Or are we all to ignore the story completely because some make too much of it?

Okay nothing substantially refuted by anyone. The flight happened the shots were fired they did cross the border. But it’s all okay because they apologized. Really reminds me of the excess skepticism over the ladies husband that was shot to death on a border lake. Same shit-A few right wingers get overly upset and the opposite side seeks to pretend the whole thing was a hoax. No wonder the border is a mess no one can sort partisan angst from facts.

Nobody in the article or here is blaming Obama.

lots of people seek to ignore//sweep this under the rug because a few commenters on unmoderated web pages go over the top, and a few utterly un substantiated accusations of “It’s okay RWNJS’s shoot at the border”

How does that logic work? Tit for tat as border policy. Lovely.

13 wrenchwench  Jul 1, 2014 1:40:38pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

Okay nothing substantially refuted by anyone. The flight happened the shots were fired they did cross the border. But it’s all okay because they apologized. Really reminds me of the excess skepticism over the ladies husband that was shot to death on a border lake. Same shit-A few right wingers get overly upset and the opposite side seeks to pretend the whole thing was a hoax. No wonder the border is a mess no one can sort partisan angst from facts.

Nobody in the article or here is blaming Obama.

lots of people seek to ignore//sweep this under the rug because a few commenters on unmoderated web pages go over the top, and a few utterly un substantiated accusations of “It’s okay RWNJS’s shoot at the border”

How does that logic work? Tit for tat as border policy. Lovely.

This:

Okay nothing substantially refuted by anyone.

makes me think you didn’t read my comment. Did you?

14 Rightwingconspirator  Jul 1, 2014 3:47:19pm

re: #13 wrenchwench

Substantially. denials after an apology… border tensions. And we still have this..

There have been more than 300 border incursions by Mexican military and law-enforcement authorities in the past decade, according to figures released recently by U.S. Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif.

Credibility? Border patrol beats proven corrupt Mexican officialdom. When physical evidence shows otherwise or the troopers back off the accusations-Then we have substance. Not the first time they drew weapons on our guys either.

In a similar incursion in January, two heavily armed Mexican soldiers crossed into Arizona near the same spot and drew their weapons on U.S. Border Patrol officers. No one was injured in that incident either, and Mexican soldiers retreated back across the border.

Mexican authorities called the January incident an “isolated and unintended occurrence,” saying soldiers simply didn’t see signs marking the border crossing. They also said that U.S. officials occasionally cross into Mexico as well.

LA Times, not exactly Brietbart…

Mexican law enforcement helicopter crossed into U.S. airspace and fired two shots, just missing American Border Patrol agents and prompting a quick apology from Mexican authorities in what is the second incursion this year of Mexican forces into United States territory, U.S. law enforcement officials said Friday.

The incident, now the subject of an FBI criminal investigation, occurred about 5:45 a.m. Thursday in southern Arizona, about 100 yards north of the U.S.-Mexico border, as Mexican law enforcement officers were chasing kidnapping suspects trying to escape into the United States, U.S. officials said.

And we still have partisan angst distorting every violent encounter down there between them and our troops or civilians. The right plays it up the left down plays it, and they are both prevaricating with gusto. in the meantime the cartel violence and casualties from poor policies in both nations continues apace.

If the denials are accurate what convinced our agents (trained in observation etc) that they were fired on by Mexican military or police?

And all the allegations of the US Border patrol “shooting with impunity” don’t change that a bit except to perhaps indicate tensions are so high now both sides are taking pot shots.

LAT again-

In a similar incursion in January, two heavily armed Mexican soldiers crossed into Arizona near the same spot and drew their weapons on U.S. Border Patrol officers. No one was injured in that incident either, and Mexican soldiers retreated back across the border.

Mexican authorities called the January incident an “isolated and unintended occurrence,” saying soldiers simply didn’t see signs marking the border crossing. They also said that U.S. officials occasionally cross into Mexico as well.

Mistakes happen once…. Continuing incidents indicate something more critical than a simple navigation and rules of engagement “mistake”

15 wrenchwench  Jul 1, 2014 5:44:05pm

re: #14 Rightwingconspirator

Substantially. denials after an apology… border tensions. And we still have this..

Credibility? Border patrol beats proven corrupt Mexican officialdom. When physical evidence shows otherwise or the troopers back off the accusations-Then we have substance. Not the first time they drew weapons on our guys either.

LA Times, not exactly Brietbart…

And we still have partisan angst distorting every violent encounter down there between them and our troops or civilians. The right plays it up the left down plays it, and they are both prevaricating with gusto. in the meantime the cartel violence and casualties from poor policies in both nations continues apace.

If the denials are accurate what convinced our agents (trained in observation etc) that they were fired on by Mexican military or police?

And all the allegations of the US Border patrol “shooting with impunity” don’t change that a bit except to perhaps indicate tensions are so high now both sides are taking pot shots.

LAT again-

Mistakes happen once…. Continuing incidents indicate something more critical than a simple navigation and rules of engagement “mistake”

Duncan Hunter is a racist anti-immigration activist. Nonetheless, yes, there are many many crossings of the border by lots of folks in uniform. What is your concern, exactly? Do you think a shooting war is going to break out between the US and Mexico? That’s hair-on-fire Duncan Hunter style hyperbole.

Also, why did those who claim they were shot at not inform those taking over the next shift? Perhaps you are more concerned about the incident than the guys who were shot at.

Your post at the top says this:

At worst? You be the judge.

Your last comment at the bottom says this:

Mistakes happen once…. Continuing incidents indicate something more critical than a simple navigation and rules of engagement “mistake”

You are implying awful things are happening or going to happen, but not spelling out what awful things exactly.

Honestly, I am more concerned about the justified reaction from Mexicans to having US Border Patrol shoot their kids IN MEXICO from the US side. As of yesterday, those parents have some recourse.

16 Rightwingconspirator  Jul 1, 2014 6:42:57pm

re: #15 wrenchwench

Heh so now i come back after paging a LAT article on how the agent can be sued. But in any case we both have the same problem at it’s source.

Is there even any question awful things are happening there? The cartels the kidnapping the mass murders the disappearing women of Juarez. on and on. the idea that this violence and corruption stops some place well away from the border is wishful thinking. Despite huge efforts the cartels have had very little success in suborning our agents. The pressure to move the drugs, humans and money builds anyway.

There is a possibility out there that awaits real evidence. Until then no point getting into the idea a corrupt Mexican agent may have payback or intimidation in mind in popping off a few shots along the border. Your argument about what our guys do kinda supports the possibility, but again we await better data.

17 klys  Jul 1, 2014 7:15:36pm

From all the articles I’ve looked at, the claims that the shooting was done at agents in a marked car appear to originate with Mr. del Cueto. There is no reference to shots being fired at agents in the official statement from the CBP. A Google search shows me that he appeared on the O’Rielly show in early June to discuss the increase in unaccompanied minors coming across the border. I am willing to admit to some level of extra scrutiny towards his story as a result, because this implies *to me* some agenda of his own that he is willing to use platforms to advance. I might be in agreement with it, I might not be, but until I know what it is, I am going to look at additional sources beyond this one man.

I also found that the Tuscon sector has had two fatal shootings so far this year.

18 1Peter G1  Jul 2, 2014 9:45:00am

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

Border transgressions happen all the time. In my youth it was virtually impossible to get the sheriff of St Clair county to stop invading Canada. Or to get Florida courts to admit they couldn’t legally send bounty hunters to Canada to kidnap Canadian citizens. Now I am more familiar with events along the border where I live but did didn’t we have an incident not long ago where bounty hunters were hired to go get someone in Mexico? I’ll have to google that.

19 wrenchwench  Jul 2, 2014 11:16:22am

re: #16 Rightwingconspirator

Is there even any question awful things are happening there?

There is, in a way. Of course we all know the cartels are doing terrible things all over the country. However, it would be irresponsible to take that vague statement and use it to justify militarizing the border (further) or another doubling of the number of agents.

This is why I would and do question when people talk about the ‘awful things’ happening there. Your next sentence:

The cartels the kidnapping the mass murders the disappearing women of Juarez. on and on.

The ‘disappearing women of Juarez’ is a myth. No substance at all. Yet, a movie has been made, much propaganda has been written, and it’s false. There is one woman murdered in Juarez for every ten men who are. Same goes for kidnappings and disappearances. That’s a normal ratio, compared to other big cities around the world. When the murder rate went way up in Juarez, from 2006 to 2010 or so, the ratio did not change, but the hype about women did.

Your next sentence:

the idea that this violence and corruption stops some place well away from the border is wishful thinking.

Straw man. Have you seen that idea expressed anywhere? I have not.

The end of the paragraph:

Despite huge efforts the cartels have had very little success in suborning our agents. The pressure to move the drugs, humans and money builds anyway.

There have been agent convictions for taking bribes and moving drugs. I don’t think the rate is high. Of course the pressure to make profits remains. It always will.

The next paragraph:

There is a possibility out there that awaits real evidence. Until then no point getting into the idea a corrupt Mexican agent may have payback or intimidation in mind in popping off a few shots along the border. Your argument about what our guys do kinda supports the possibility, but again we await better data.

Of all the corrupt Mexican agents, zero of them are looking for payback for dead Mexican kids. Corrupt Mexican agents (police officers, army members, federales) participate in killing Mexican kids, they don’t defend them or avenge them. My statement about what (some) of our agents do does not actually support the possibility that Mexican agents will shoot across the border.

We have much to be concerned about in and around Mexico, but you and I disagree on where the concern should lie.

I believe Mexico’s most urgent task is the overhaul of their judicial system, which they have been working on for years and are planning to have big changes in place in a couple more. That will be key to reining in impunity and corruption.

I don’t think there is much danger crossing the border on foot or in vehicles. The big dangers are crossing the border in electronic funds transfers.


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