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1 wrenchwench  Jul 10, 2014 2:18:50pm

Is it sunset there yet? {{{CL}}}

2 CuriousLurker  Jul 10, 2014 2:23:14pm

re: #1 wrenchwench

Is it sunset there yet? {{{CL}}}

Aww , thanks. {{{ww}}}

No, not until around 8:30, but I blew it today anyway when I lost my temper with KT. It’s one of several things that can “break” (invalidate) one’s fast for the day, so I’ll have to make it up later, post-Ramadan.

3 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 10, 2014 3:27:41pm
4 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 10, 2014 6:30:00pm
5 cat-tikvah  Jul 11, 2014 10:57:17am

CL, are you familiar with Irshad Manji? I’ve read her books and seen her speak, and am ever impressed with her efforts to engage in discussion, even with her most vehement critics, with civility. Here’s a recent video post from her; I’d be interested to know your thoughts.
Youtube Video
(Reform vs. Moderate)

6 CuriousLurker  Jul 11, 2014 3:14:08pm

re: #5 cat-tikvah

CL, are you familiar with Irshad Manji? I’ve read her books and seen her speak, and am ever impressed with her efforts to engage in discussion, even with her most vehement critics, with civility. Here’s a recent video post from her; I’d be interested to know your thoughts.
[Embedded content]

Video
(Reform vs. Moderate)

First, my apologies for not responding sooner. Believe it or not, I neglected to subscribe to my own Page’s comments! *headdesk*

I dislike Irshad Manji’s approach. Intensely. She’s constantly critical of Islam & Muslims, which wouldn’t be a problem (for me) if it was constructive criticism in dialog with other Muslims. What is a problem for me is that she makes sweeping generalizations about Muslims—e.g. as she did in the video you provided when she said, “moderate Muslims are not very moderate, today.”

Really? How many of the world’s approximately 1.6 billion Muslims does she personally know? The the vast majority of them could be considered moderate & law abiding—if they weren’t, at 23% of the world’s population they’d surely be wreaking far more havoc than the (relatively) small number of fanatics are currently doing.

IMO, she too often makes her points via right-wing outlets like Fox News, which plays right into the hands of Islamophobes by reinforcing negative stereotypes. IOW, she doesn’t seem especially interested directing her efforts at engaging actual Muslims—it’s all about selling books, appearing on TV, and making speeches (much of which is no doubt quite lucrative).

Additionally, she has neither the gravitas nor the training required to be considered qualified to reform Islam, and her “reformist” or “progressive” ideas tend towards the radical, not the moderate—i.e. she’s not talking about moving someone who’s center-right to center-left, she’s talking about moving them from center-right to Firebagger territory. If you’re not engaging on a grassroots level with the people you so vociferously proclaim you to want to help, then what are you doing exactly?

You said you’ve read Manji’s books, so I assume you’re familiar with their titles. Are you Jewish (Reform, Modern Orthodox, Hasidic, Haredi, whatever)? If you are, then you very likely care about Israel even if you’re critical of some of it’s policies, right? So how would you feel if a fellow Jew claiming to be a “reformist” started showing up for interviews on TV channels that were hostile to Israel, making sweeping generalizations about how “moderate Israelis” think (as if they’re a monolith), and sold books with titles like The Trouble with Israel Today, or The Trouble with Israel: A Jew’s Call for Reform in Her Faith, or HaShem, Liberty and Love: The Courage to Reconcile Faith and Freedom? Would you immediately resent the negativity it implies?

Do you see what I’m getting at here? Yes, yes, I know that Israel & Judaism don’t currently have the level of problem with violent fanaticism that Islam is experiencing, but bashing co-coreligionists who don’t share all of your views isn’t helpful, especially since the average guys or gals on the street are not the ones responsible for the fanaticism. As a matter of fact, if you pay close attention to the news, it quickly becomes apparent that Muslims in non-Western countries tend to bear the brunt of attacks by violent fanatics and/or the retaliatory military strikes their attacks bring about. Moderate and/or orthodox Muslims are not the problem.

Anyway, if you made it this far I apologize for going on & on—it wasn’t my intention when I started typing, so I hope I didn’t bore you to death. ;o)

FWIW, this article (about Manji & Ayan Hirsi Ali) pretty accurately reflects how I feel about both of them. It’s long, but it’s worth a read if you’re truly interested in how many who consider themselves independent, moderate Muslim women feel about themselves and about people like Manji & Ali.

7 cat-tikvah  Jul 11, 2014 4:13:48pm

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I’m much more familiar with the issues regarding Ayaan Hirsi Ali (eg “everyone should be Christian” and her inflammatory blanket statements about Islam).

I value your perspective, which is why I asked. I’ll read the article you linked.

As for me, I am Jewish and I do care about Israel but not blindly. Being intermarried (to an atheist ex-Catholic) I have been both pariah and “defender of the faith” in the same Reform congregation. I have little tolerance for the factions of orthodoxy that say, consider women ritually polluting and rabbis like mine less than Jewish.

The combination of religion and politics is, and has always been, toxic — we only have to see the attempts here in the US to impose right-wing Christianity (while hearing howls about Christians being “persecuted” for their faith). I have often said that I am not a guest in my own country, “allowed” to be here through the beneficence of “real Americans”, so long as I know my proper place.

Again, I am seeking to understand, as I know you are.

8 CuriousLurker  Jul 11, 2014 4:54:57pm

re: #7 cat-tikvah

Thanks for caring enough to take the time to try to understand.

I hear you about having been both pariah and “defender of the faith” in the same congregation. I’m not involved in the community up here as much as I used to be back in Texas, but I faced much of the same—either I was too outspoken (you have a big mouth, why do you have to question everything, etc.) or I was assumed to be much better (more pious) than I actually am simply because I wear hijab.

There were also those outside the congregation (mostly Iranian expats) who were very conflicted about Islam because of the revolution and would veer from saying nice things to me one day, to snarling at me the next about why didn’t I realize that Islam wasn’t about covering my hair, then another day asking me if I thought they were going to hell for making fun of Islam/Muslims. O_o

I agree that the combination of religion & politics is toxic. Just a little while ago I was telling a friend (via email) that I’ve last night I got to the section about the First Crusade in the book I’m reading about antisemitism. Things seem to have taken an especially ugly turn at that point. Ugh.

9 CuriousLurker  Jul 13, 2014 12:37:24am

I’m going to leave this here since (in the YouTube video in #5) Manji was criticizing moderate Muslims saying they “are not very moderate, today….” yada, yada, yada. Here is your reform, progressive Muslim on the current I-P upheaval:


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