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1 Kravmavolley  Jul 30, 2014 1:07:21pm

I agree with you 100% (that this one is on Hamas and that Israel’s response is about right). The thing to NEVER forget is that Hamas was offered a total ceasefire (Egyptian proposal) with the opportunity to discuss their demands after. Instead, what did they do… They declined the ceasefire AND sent 10 guys into Israel through one of the tunnels, which in turn prompted the Israelis to attack to shut down the tunnels. This one is totally on Hamas.

2 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 1:17:51pm

Hamas is to blame, but sorry, I can’t bring myself to consider hundreds of dead and thousands of injured civilians “about right” in terms of a response.

3 Kravmavolley  Jul 30, 2014 1:55:41pm

re: #2 CuriousLurker

Fair enough… but I would ask, then what should the Israelis have done. They sent in troops to clear the tunnels and hidden military assets (which in large parts are embedded with the civilian population for reasons Hamas has been criticized for by various Human Rights organizations).

I will grant you that the destruction to Gaza is heartbreaking but that the same time I don’t really see any other way this can be done. Remember, Hamas (with support of the Gazan population after all they elected them and continue to support them in polls) would quite happy if most of those 2,000+ rockets they shoot at Israeli cities would be hitting.

So, I would ask that if you have a better way… please let us know.

4 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 2:33:45pm

re: #3 Kravmavolley

The better way would be compromise that leads to peace. Real, painful compromise on both sides. If that doesn’t happen it will never end.

Short of wiping out the entire population of Gaza, the IDF cannot completely rout Hamas—they’ll simply disappear into the civilian population and be back later. Or morph into something worse, then the bloody cycle will start again.

Endless back & forth violence is not a solution.

5 Kravmavolley  Jul 30, 2014 2:51:23pm

I don’t disagree with you Curious as to the need to find a compromise to lead to peace. But it takes both sides willing to compromise to realistically make that happen. On the Israeli side, the Right (who is also messianic) is in ascendency in large part because of Palestinian intransigence and non recognition of the State, They are no mood to compromise about anything, and if anything this war and Hamas’ rocket strikes convince them that giving up the West Bank would lead to more of the same. In fact, just yesterday Iran stated that they were going to start sending missiles to the West Bank to help the resistance. So there is that.

At the same time I do believe strongly in a two state solution and I think it can be reasonably accomplished but that there have to be strong guarantees on either side, and right now neither side is willing to take those steps.

6 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 4:00:07pm

re: #5 Kravmavolley

*SIGH*

Arafat recognized the State of Israel’s right to exist in 1993.

BTW, you mentioned polls. I guess you must’ve missed this one based on a June 15-17, 2014 survey: Gaza Public Rejects Hamas, Wants Ceasefire

I will repeat, again since you’re new here, I refuse to take sides in the conflict and I’m not buying the idea that all the blame falls on one side or the other.

Whether or not there are people on both sides who are ready to compromise depends on who you talk/listen to. I listen to people who strike me as reasonable and non-partisan, people who tirelessly work for peace like Amos Oz (already noted above) and his daughter Fania Oz-Salzberger, Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish, David Grossman, and Professor Mohammed S. Dajani.

Obviously, you can listen to whoever you want and, like me, you’re entitled to your own opinion, but I’ll tell you right now that I’m not here to debate opposing “team” talking points on the I-P issue—I’ve already heard/read most of them hundreds of times. I view such activities as a waste of valuable time and would rather engage in something more productive.

I realize it’s asking a lot, but kindly visit the links I’ve provided and look closely at what you find there before responding again as they should give you a pretty good idea of my thoughts on the matter. If after doing that you still want to talk more, then we can. FWIW, my thoughts have remained largely unchanged over the (almost) 4.5 years that I’ve been here interacting with people, so anything you say is unlikely to change my mind unless it’s an extremely unique and honest insight into something I haven’t considered before.

7 Kravmavolley  Jul 30, 2014 4:22:25pm

Sigh… back at you…

Now, I am responding respectfully so please keep that in mind. And though I am new here and you don’t know me, I can tell you that I am not some Rightist. I am in almost any sense of the word a Centrist on this issue and if I had to choose any politicians in Israel it would be to vote for Tzipi Livni or Issac Herzog (Labor).

Arafat did not recognize Israel’s right to exist other than recognizing the rights of a State named Israel to exist. Now, don’t be confused here…. Please understand that Israel was not created as just any ole’ State, it was created to be the National Homeland and Nation State of the Jewish People. It was created to provide a place where after 2,500 years of continued persecution that the Jewish people would have their land in the world again.

Arafat (and every other Palestinian leader) will not renounce the so-called “Palestinian Right of Return” which if enacted would create a Palestinian majority in the State known as Israel. So in reality you would have a Palestinian State and a State called Israel which would really be… another Palestinian State”

BUT even more than that… Arafat was offered a deal in 2000 and walked away from that. So…

As for Gaza and Hamas please allow me to show you this poll of Palestinian Public Opinion, where it says that even though Hamas had an anemic 35% favorable rating, people in Gaza would vote for Ismail Haniyeh (52.6 - 46.6%) in an election with P.A. Pres. Mahmoud Abbas. So they may not like Hamas so much but they don’t dislike them enough to keep them out of office.

Anyway, I don’t think I will necessarily change your mind but I do believe that a fair exchange of information is always good for a community. This seems like a really cool site outside of the general shouting on the internet so hey man… if we can have a positive exchange… all the better.

8 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 5:20:58pm

re: #7 Kravmavolley

Arafat did not recognize Israel’s right to exist other than recognizing the rights of a State named Israel to exist. Now, don’t be confused here…. Please understand that Israel was not created as just any ole’ State, it was created to be the National Homeland and Nation State of the Jewish People. It was created to provide a place where after 2,500 years of continued persecution that the Jewish people would have their land in the world again.

I’m well aware of the history of antisemitism and how that relates to Israel. I’ve been studying it because I want to understand & also because many of the same tactics used against Jews are now being used against Muslims by people like Pamela Geller, David Horowitz, Robert Spencer, etc.

Arafat (and every other Palestinian leader) will not renounce the so-called “Palestinian Right of Return” which if enacted would create a Palestinian majority in the State known as Israel. So in reality you would have a Palestinian State and a State called Israel which would really be… another Palestinian State”

BUT even more than that… Arafat was offered a deal in 2000 and walked away from that. So…

You’re still not telling me anything new. As I’ve already said, the only solution will be real, painful compromise on both sides. Letting go of the the insistence on Palestinian “aliyah” would be part of it, as would a return to the 1967 borders, removal of the West Bank settlements, and Jerusalem becoming neutral territory, possibly overseen by an international body. None of that is going to happen as long as Israeli right-wingers are in power either.

As for Gaza and Hamas please allow me to show you this poll of Palestinian Public Opinion, where it says that even though Hamas had an anemic 35% favorable rating, people in Gaza would vote for Ismail Haniyeh (52.6 - 46.6%) in an election with P.A. Pres. Mahmoud Abbas. So they may not like Hamas so much but they don’t dislike them enough to keep them out of office.

As for the polls, we can throw them at each other all day—like the one Charles provided in the other thread—and spend countless hours sifting through all the details about how they were conducted that can affect their outcome. As Charles also pointed out, there hasn’t been an actual election since 2006. I suspect that the people of Gaza who would still vote for Hamas candidates may not be able to envision their lives being drastically improved without them. Hamas is also pretty brutal with their own people, so being against them can be dangerous. It’ll be interesting to see what polls show after this recent round of bloodshed.

In any event, neither Palestinian nor Israeli children get to vote, but they do get to be terrified, maimed, and killed when the adults start fighting. Ditto for the innocent civilians who didn’t vote for Hamas (a plurality isn’t the same as an absolute majority). They too have lost their homes, loved ones, and in some cases their lives.

Agreed, LGF is a cool site. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here with a wide variety of opinions, and while we sometimes have knock-down, drag-out fights with each other, Charles doesn’t let things get out of hand.

Okay, I’m not a fast typist and I’m tried of typing now. Enjoy your evening (or whatever part of the day it is wherever you are).

P.S. It’s considered good form to use the “Reply” button when replying to someone so they’ll receive email notification (assuming they subscribed to the thread). If you don’t use it then it can look like you’re being passive-aggressive and/or trying to get in the last word without them knowing. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing—it’s just a bit of friendly advice.

9 Kravmavolley  Jul 30, 2014 5:59:18pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

Hmmm I could swear I did hit the reply button. Sorry, about that.. certainly no offense was meant.

You’ll get no argument from me around the hatred spread by Geller and crew. I am no fan of theirs. They are bigots. Plain and simple.

Ok.. So in relation to this in your comment regarding 1967 borders and J’Slem.

None of that is going to happen as long as Israeli right-wingers are in power either.

Whether it is a “hard compromise” or not… that is not remotely a possibility whether Israeli Right Winger, Israeli Left Wingers, Israeli Moderates, and any Palestinian group/faction/polity is in charge. Jerusalem is never going to be internationalized. Nobody (or at least not sizable majorities), not Jews, not Arabs wants that. They will fight to the death over that as well.

You are right that neither Palestinian or Israeli children can vote but unfortunately they are subject to the “sins” of their parents. I think it is horrific that Palestinian children are victimized by both sides. I think it is horrific that Israeli children are attacked by Hamas’ rockets. That said, this is the brutal reality of the situation… a situation I put completely on Hamas. Had Hamas accepted the Egyptian ceasefire proposal this would be over an no children would be getting hurt. One cannot expect Israelis to just sit back when over 2000 missiles are launched at them.

I too would be really curious to see what the polls say here and if the Palestinian polity will ever hold elections we can know.

Anyway, I will echo your kind words of wishing you a pleasant evening and I will ask one thing… Just something to consider. Please, consider if you were Israeli and you heard the pronouncements coming from Hamas, or coming from Iran (saying they will arm West Bank Militants with rockets), you have been getting attacked night and day for years. What would you do?

To short circuit any question of me putting my self in Palestinian shoes… i would end hostilities immediately, would recognize Israel as a Jewish State, negotiate for land swaps for lost territory in the West Bank, declare a treaty of economic cooperation with the U.S. and Israel, stress a compensation package for the refugees of the 1948 War of Independence and build a place where my people have a State that is not corrupt, and takes a direction when it comes to establishing democracy and civil rights.

At least that is what I would do.

10 Skandal  Jul 30, 2014 10:52:54pm

Amos Oz, leading leftwing pro-Peace activist has some interesting thoughts about the current fighting.

How secure can Jewish people feel on this planet? I think not about the last 20 or 50 years but about the last 2,000 years. But I will tell you what my hope and prayer for the future of Israel is. I would like to see Israel removed once and for all from the front pages of all the newspapers in the world and instead conquer, occupy and build settlements in the literary, arts, music and architecture supplements. This is my dream for the future.

11 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 11:46:18pm

re: #10 Skandal

Heh, I tweeted that article about 3.5 hours ago Eastern Time. I’m glad he’s out of the hospital and back to keeping up his efforts.

12 Skandal  Jul 31, 2014 12:23:40am

re: #11 CuriousLurker

Agreed. I thought you would find it interesting and apparently you did. He has been an inspiration for many irrespective of one’s political leanings. It seems doubtful given the current situation that his hopes and prayers will be fulfilled soon. However, when the fighting eventually stops perhaps the realization of the necessity of reaching a long term peaceful resolution will finally occur. We shall see.

13 CuriousLurker  Jul 31, 2014 6:46:12am

re: #12 Skandal

I’m keeping my fingers crossed. The suffering & loss of life is terribly distressing even from a great distance; I can’t begin to imagine what it’s like for the people who’ve had to live it for the past 60+ years.

I thought his suggestion of Israel moving forward with a two-state solution with only Abbas & the West Bank was very interesting. I don’t know if it’s politically doable, but the idea that it might be successful in (eventually) getting Gazans to stage a popular revolt against Hamas was intriguing. It was something that had never occurred to me before.

14 CuriousLurker  Jul 31, 2014 7:44:55am

re: #9 Kravmavolley

You are right that neither Palestinian or Israeli children can vote but unfortunately they are subject to the “sins” of their parents. I think it is horrific that Palestinian children are victimized by both sides. I think it is horrific that Israeli children are attacked by Hamas’ rockets. That said, this is the brutal reality of the situation… a situation I put completely on Hamas. Had Hamas accepted the Egyptian ceasefire proposal this would be over an no children would be getting hurt. One cannot expect Israelis to just sit back when over 2000 missiles are launched at them.

Tell me, do you think Israel is completely blameless in the perpetuation of this situation? What about before Hamas? What about before the PLO, PFLP, Fatah, etc.? Are radical Palestinian groups so much more clever than the Israelis that they discovered some diabolical way of tricking Israel into becoming a partner in this extremely destructive & seemingly endless conflict?

To short circuit any question of me putting my self in Palestinian shoes… i would end hostilities immediately, would recognize Israel as a Jewish State, negotiate for land swaps for lost territory in the West Bank, declare a treaty of economic cooperation with the U.S. and Israel, stress a compensation package for the refugees of the 1948 War of Independence and build a place where my people have a State that is not corrupt, and takes a direction when it comes to establishing democracy and civil rights.

At least that is what I would do.

Would you, really? How much time have you spent in the West Bank & Gaza? If you had been born in either one after 1967 and didn’t have much to lose (materially speaking), had never known what it was like to have citizenship or real freedom, had few job/income opportunities, a poor economy, corrupt infrastructure, and your movement severely restricted, you’d do all those things? You’d trust Israel & the U.S. (who has staunchly supported Israel financially, politically, and militarily) to ensure that you’d be treated fairly after all these decades? Somehow I doubt it.

That’s all for now. I have lots of work on my desk that needs to be attended to.

15 Kravmavolley  Jul 31, 2014 10:04:14am

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Yous ask:

Tell me, do you think Israel is completely blameless in the perpetuation of this situation? What about before Hamas? What about before the PLO, PFLP, Fatah, etc.? Are radical Palestinian groups so much more clever than the Israelis that they discovered some diabolical way of tricking Israel into becoming a partner in this extremely destructive & seemingly endless conflict?

No I do not think Israel is entirely blameless in this situation. I do put the “lion share” of the blame on the Palestinian and Arab polity here, but, Israel has certainly contributed to this at times.

And yes, that is what <bold> I would do </bold>… See, sometimes life gives you a shit sandwich, but that is better than a double shit burger. Back in 1947-48 the Jewish Yishuv under Ben-Gurion accepted less than ideal (to say the least) compromises to at least get a State. I like to think I would do the same just to get that State. From there I can build.

And, I lived over there and spent time in the West Bank and Gaza. I am well aware of the situation and the flaws in the Occupation.

Oh and thanks for responding. Again… we may not agree but at least it’s civil.

16 CuriousLurker  Jul 31, 2014 10:59:51pm

re: #15 Kravmavolley

And yes, that is what <bold> I would do </bold>… See, sometimes life gives you a shit sandwich, but that is better than a double shit burger. Back in 1947-48 the Jewish Yishuv under Ben-Gurion accepted less than ideal (to say the least) compromises to at least get a State. I like to think I would do the same just to get that State. From there I can build.

Apples & oranges—the situations aren’t comparable.

And, I lived over there and spent time in the West Bank and Gaza. I am well aware of the situation and the flaws in the Occupation.

I’ll just point out that I didn’t ask if you’d been to the West Bank or Gaza or spent time there, I asked how much time you had spent there. Being there for a couple of hours, or going there in a military/non-civilian capacity would be quite different from actually spending time there with the people. I’ll leave it alone though because, no offense, but I’m really not getting much out of this conversation.

Oh and thanks for responding. Again… we may not agree but at least it’s civil.

You’re welcome and thank you as well for being civil.

Now I’m off to begin reading David Grossman’s The Yellow Wind to learn more about those “flaws” in the Occupation…


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