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1 Mets102  Aug 5, 2014 4:47:08pm

Great piece volley. Even when people bring up the exact point that you make — that Hamas and other terrorists should not be firing rockets at Israeli civilians — the anti-Israel people merely dismiss them as harmless rockets and point to Iron Dome. Of course, the UN High Commissioner for “Human Rights” condemned Israel and the US for developing and funding Iron Dome, respectively, and then not turning it around and giving it to Hamas.

The most sickening post I’ve ever seen at the site in question, however, was a post that shot to the top of the recommended list there condemning Elie Wiesel for saying that Hamas should stop using children as human shields. Here they are, sitting in the comfort of America, condemning a man who has been through a hell that none of us have ever experienced and can truly never fully comprehend. It made me sick to my stomach. Perhaps, however, it was appropriate that that diary posted on Tisha B’Av considering the many great calamities that have befallen our people over the years on that day.

2 JayinPhiladelphia  Aug 5, 2014 5:11:58pm

“How would you stop the rockets?” It’s a question they never answer, you’re absolutely correct.

In a way, it’s telling. Because they obviously have no answer. Either they don’t care, or worse.

Great post, volley.

3 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 5:20:52pm

re: #2 JayinPhiladelphia

You know that is a great question… Amos Oz had a really good piece on that… still I want to know “Since when did shooting rockets at a civilian population equal resistance”. What are people resisting shooting rockets at children.

4 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 5:34:17pm

There are plenty of people who acknowledge that shooting rockets accomplishes fuck-all for Palestinians, but point out that doing anything else accomplishes fuck-all, as well.

During the current campaign by Israel, more Israelis have died than in the past year from attacks by Hamas. In terms of keeping Israelis safe, the campaign of defense has not worked. Furthermore, the extremely troubling civilian-to-militant death ratio, as acknowledged by the IDF, is seriously wearing away Israeli support and sympathy; and Israel needs support, and sympathy.

Finally, Hamas’s eliminationist rhetoric is contemptible and horrific, but we are now seeing the same rhetoric on the Israeli side, with the difference being that the Israelis are actually in a position to act on it.

One can completely acknowledge Israel’s right to defend itself against attack and still question their method of doing it, whether it is actually making Israel safer, and point out that the frankly insane rhetoric coming from the Israeli right-wing is making ordinary Palestinians think that the peace process has no chance whatsoever.

5 wrenchwench  Aug 5, 2014 5:51:08pm

Welcome, all you hatchlings.

After reading this Page, I read this article which poses questions similar to yours:

What Would You Do If Hamas Attacked You?

Is there a reason you’re reluctant to name the site you’re talking about? It’s easy enough to find by googling a bit of the quotations.

6 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 6:02:35pm

re: #4 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

A couple of things you bring up.

It’s not just a matter of “doing fuck all”… it is a matter of shooting thousands of rockets at civilians. So if they have a no problem with that… then why do they have a problem with Israeli attacks that produce collateral damage?

Also you said they tried “everything else” did they ever try to make true peace one where they recognize Israel as it was created to be the National Homeland of the Jewish people? I don’t think they have tried that.

I am no fan of the Israeli Right… but they are not even close to Hamas even in rhetoric.

FINALLY as for ratios. Do you really want to argue that somehow Israel is at fault for spending money on a defensive infrastructure, where Hamas spent money on tunnels and Rockets to shoot Israeli citizens?

Anyway thank you for your civil response.

7 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 6:09:15pm

re: #6 Kravmavolley

A couple of things you bring up.

It’s not just a matter of “doing fuck all”… it is a matter of shooting thousands of rockets at civilians. So if they have a no problem with that… then why do they have a problem with Israeli attacks that produce collateral damage?

I don’t understand what this question means. First of all, I never talked about ‘doing fuck all’, so I’m not sure why that appears in quotes. I think maybe you read too quickly, and failed to understand what I was saying.

Also you said they tried “everything else” did they ever try to make true peace one where they recognize Israel as it was created to be the National Homeland of the Jewish people? I don’t think they have tried that.

That is not a realistic thing to have happen, though. I mean, it’s great in Pollyanna land, but that is something that, if it happens, would happen at the end of a long amount of negotiation. It’s never going to emerge from the Palestinian people, and if you’re attempting a fact-based examination of the topic, this should be incredibly obvious.

In addition, ‘they’ are not a coherent group. Hamas is in control of Gaza. Protesting against Hamas accomplishes getting yourself shot by Hamas, mostly. There’s not a lot of agency for individual Palestinians. Who you’re addressing, whether it’s Palestinians or human rights people or what, kind of mixes up while you’re talking; try to frame your audience clearly in your mind.

I am no fan of the Israeli Right… but they are not even close to Hamas even in rhetoric.

They absolutely are. Have you read this?

dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com

FINALLY as for ratios. Do you really want to argue that somehow Israel is at fault for spending money on a defensive infrastructure, where Hamas spent money on tunnels and Rockets to shoot Israeli citizens?

No. If I wanted to argue that, that is what I would argue.

It really seems like you haven’t read my post at all. You’ve instead, constructed a fantasy post and attacked that. It really doesn’t do anything for the conversation when you do that. Please try to engage with what I actually say.

And please stop putting things in quotation marks I didn’t say. That is a really fundamentally dishonest thing to do and it will quickly grow incredibly tiresome.

8 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 6:12:50pm

re: #5 wrenchwench

Thank you for the kind words. Also thank you for looking further into the story…. if my article helped that I feel like it did some good..

I did not directly link to the site in question Daily Kos because I really don’t want to give them clicks. But they have users there who posted straight up Neo Nazi propaganda and though reported STILL retain posting and trusted user status.

So again… thank you for your comment. I appreciate it.

9 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 6:14:43pm

re: #8 Kravmavolley

Can you quote some of the neo-nazi propaganda, please?

Edit: And yeah, this’d be a lot easier if you just linked to the thread on dkos you’re talking about.

10 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 6:23:54pm

re: #9 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Absolutely.. I will do that first BEFORE I respond to your first post:

Fake!!!!

Recommended by: Don midwest (who despite being reported to admins. is still a “Trusted User:

You see the problem is that Netanyahu is not a real Jew. He is a Zionist, which has nothing to do with the Real Jews. Now, we are starting to see this anti-Christ (Netanyahu Administration as well as any Zionist Ashkenazi Administration) begin to assert its own will against the world. What does he mean never second guess him. I bet he takes the $325 million that the Zionist/Ashkenazi Jews of the House voted for. What Netanyahu is doing is starting his own World War (remember Hitler did that also). Then when Israel starts getting beat he knows these fake Jews in this country will scream bloody murder and the U.S. will have to come to the rescue.

I really think it is BullS**T that you people want so badly for Jesus to be a white man that you have fallen for the biggest lie ever told. Remember, the Ashkenazi Jews, the pagan Khazars that CONVERTED to Judaism are not the real Jews that received a promise from GOD. But people have wanted for so long to say that Jesus is white by comparing Him to a white Jewish convert and say “look at the (fake) Jews, that is how Jesus looked”. B.S. But the sheeples and the money has followed the lie and now we are seeing the evil that is the Ashkenazi Jews. Yes, the same Jews that were behind 9/11 (Thanx Silverman) and the same fake Jews that hyped up the Holocaust. yes, people died, I doubt 6 million and I KNOW they were not the real Jews.

Judaism of course is a religion, it is not a race as they want to say. how can you convert to a race??????? But the lie is starting to crumble!! Oh what a tangled web we weave…

Cut the fake Jews off!!!

by I Love Lucy on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 10:29:21 AM EDT (lucy despite reporting is still an active handle)

This is straight out Neo Nazi propaganda.

11 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 6:26:20pm

re: #10 Kravmavolley

Yeah, I’ve see the Khazar bullshit, or subtle variants thereof, pop up at somethingawful.com too.

Can you please link to the thread you’re talking about?

12 freetoken  Aug 5, 2014 6:34:06pm

re: #10 Kravmavolley

1. Learn to use the quote tags.

2. “Nazi” has specific meanings, in serious discussions (as opposed to juvenile internet taunting.) What you quoted sounds like the usual narcissistic uninformed beliefs of an I’m-an-expert-on-the-internet, looking-for-a-cause American who is too bored and too lazy to do real research.

13 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 6:35:35pm

re: #12 freetoken

The particular thing he’s talking about, the myth of the Khazar origin of Ashkenazic Jews, is very much a central neo-Nazi talking point. He’s not misrepresenting that.

WHoever is using it may be using it in ignorance, but that’s still spreading neo-Nazi propaganda, and it’s a rather massive piece of ignorance.

14 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 6:41:08pm

re: #7 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Ok now on to your other thing.

1. I understand exactly what you were trying to say.. I am not ascribing that sympathy to you, you are talking about what others say. But then you said this:

First of all, I never talked about ‘doing fuck all’, so I’m not sure why that appears in quotes.

Here were your words exactly:

There are plenty of people who acknowledge that shooting rockets accomplishes fuck-all for Palestinians, but point out that doing anything else accomplishes fuck-all, as well.

The words “Fuck all” appear in quotes because (as you can see above) that was the term you used.

2. You said:

That is not a realistic thing to have happen, though. I mean, it’s great in Pollyanna land, but that is something that, if it happens, would happen at the end of a long amount of negotiation. It’s never going to emerge from the Palestinian people, and if you’re attempting a fact-based examination of the topic, this should be incredibly obvious.

You’re right…at this point that is not going come from the Palestinian people but then again I was told that everything else was tried. Was I not? In the end though, that is what is going to have to emerge in some form or other. It is not Pollyanna-ish unless the parties in question will simply never accept that. AND in the end if they don’t then this conflict won’t end and if it won’t be tried then I don’t have much sympathy for those who won’t try it.

3. You are quoting that insane person Moshe Feiglin. Ok…. he did something like that. BUT remember that Feiglin is a hard rival of PM Netanyahu, the position he holds is a mainly powerless andhe is a minor player in Likud. Still even that… What Feiglin promoted was awful and he should be stripped of any position in the government… his plan for exile and re-patriation in other states is NOT equal to Hamas’ - Kill all the Jews in the world commentary.

Still I will give you that Feiglin’s post is discerning….

Now as for this:

t really seems like you haven’t read my post at all. You’ve instead, constructed a fantasy post and attacked that. It really doesn’t do anything for the conversation when you do that. Please try to engage with what I actually say.

And please stop putting things in quotation marks I didn’t say. That is a really fundamentally dishonest thing to do and it will quickly grow incredibly tiresome.

I did read your post and did not intend to launch an attack. I am sorry you read it as one. It was not.

As for quotes… as you can see I quoted you above. Those were your exact words. How is that wrong? I really am curious.

Again, I thanked you for a civil response to my post. I disagreed on some points. I thought that was clear. How you took this for an “attack post” G-d only knows.

15 freetoken  Aug 5, 2014 6:41:50pm

re: #13 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Nazis were into all sorts of faux-anthropology.

But the writer quoted, with his religious rantings about ” anti-Christ” and “real Jews that received a promise from GOD” and such, demonstrates signs that he’s just repeating memes that he’s read on the net which have resonated with him for probably anti-social reasons.

16 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 6:45:36pm

re: #15 freetoken

But those are meme’s constantly repeated at “Neo-Nazi” sites. Just because he is ignorant does not make him immune to ascribing to Neo-Nazi beliefs.

17 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 6:48:02pm

re: #14 Kravmavolley

The words “Fuck all” appear in quotes because (as you can see above) that was the term you used.

You didn’t put “Fuck all” in quotes, you put “Doing fuck all” in quotes. That is not a phrase I said. Can you please, please stop doing this?

You’re right…at this point that is not going come from the Palestinian people but then again I was told that everything else was tried. Was I not?

Again, no you were not. I did not say that, you made it up. I said that everything else had gotten them fuck all—not that everything had tried.

Is English not your first language? Am i being too idiomatic for you?

As for quotes… as you can see I quoted you above. Those were your exact words. How is that wrong? I really am curious.

Because they were not my exact words. How can you claim I said ‘doing fuck all’ when I didn’t? And then double-down when I challenge you on it? What is the problem here?

Again, I thanked you for a civil response to my post. I disagreed on some points. I thought that was clear. How you took this for an “attack post” G-d only knows.

Misquoting me repeatedly, as I said, quickly gets tiresome.

You are quoting that insane person Moshe Feiglin. Ok…. he did something like that. BUT remember that Feiglin is a hard rival of PM Netanyahu, the position he holds is a mainly powerless andhe is a minor player in Likud. Still even that… What Feiglin promoted was awful and he should be stripped of any position in the government… his plan for exile and re-patriation in other states is NOT equal to Hamas’ - Kill all the Jews in the world commentary.

His plan is ‘equal’, in so far as monstrosities like that can be considered equal. His plan would not occur without massive civilian death in the Palestinian population. The idea that refugees from Palestine could be resettled elsewhere in any sort of reasonable time frame is complete fantasy. It is a vile, stupid, monstrous plan, just like Hamas’s vile, stupid, monstrous plans. I’m glad you agree he’s a piece of shit, but you know very well he’s not going to be stripped of his governmental power, and while his position is not very powerful, he is very much part of a spoiler group that Bibi is dependent on in the current moment.

It does nobody any good to ignore the incredibly disturbing hard-right swing that Israel has taken, nor overlook Bibi’s recent comments that basically rule out the peace process.

18 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 6:48:27pm

re: #15 freetoken

Nazis were into all sorts of faux-anthropology.

But the writer quoted, with his religious rantings about ” anti-Christ” and “real Jews that received a promise from GOD” and such, demonstrates signs that he’s just repeating memes that he’s read on the net which have resonated with him for probably anti-social reasons.

How is that incongruent with ‘neo-nazi’, though?

Edit: Are you just skipping over the ‘neo’ part?

19 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 7:02:56pm

Also, as to this bit:

In the end though, that is what is going to have to emerge in some form or other. It is not Pollyanna-ish unless the parties in question will simply never accept that. AND in the end if they don’t then this conflict won’t end and if it won’t be tried then I don’t have much sympathy for those who won’t try it.

It is Polly-anna-ish, to think that any Palestinian group will endorse, at the outset of negotiations, Israel as a Jewish state. For one thing, that term is entirely undefined. What do you think it means, for Israel to be a Jewish state? For another, whatever definition you make, it would be something that would be agreed on at the end, not the beginning, of negotiations. The PA—not Hamas—has said that they are willing to recognize Israel as a state to begin negotiations on the 1967 borders.

And you keep using group terminology, as though all the people in Gaza can actually influence what the hell position Hamas or the brigades or the random other fuckers there do. Hamas last held elections 7 years ago and they murdered a lot of their political opponents since then.

Oh great, more quotes I didn’t say. “attack post”. Something I didn’t claim—and I don’t feel that your post was an attack post.

20 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 7:05:15pm

re: #17 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Ok… enough with the insults. Period. Stop fighting with some illusion in your head. Really… quit it.

I am wondering about the “English comment” (which did not have to be made and to me is insulting), however. You said:

“Misquoting me repeatedly, as I said, quickly gets tiresome”

in response to a comment that I made which said:

I disagreed on some points. I thought that was clear. How you took this for an “attack post” G-d only knows.

and you responded:

You’ve instead, constructed a fantasy post and attacked that.

So you are correct in that you did not use the words “attack post” but as you can see from you quote that was the context. IF that disturbs you… I apologize.

No one is stating that anyone should ignore the Israeli Right. There are some very bad actors. But none of that approaches the direct commentary of Hamas and their “Kill the Jews” (MY QUOTE) rhetoric.

Still, in the end… the issue of why Hamas supporters or critics of Israel (they are not always one in the same) have never told me how Shooting rockets at civilians is acceptable or resistance and why if that is the case why is it that they have a problem when Israel responds.

You and I are off to a very bad start… SO rather than either of us insulting the other… I will back away from this conversation in the interests of peace at a new site for me.

21 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 7:13:38pm

re: #20 Kravmavolley

Ok… enough with the insults. Period. Stop fighting with some illusion in your head. Really… quit it.

What insults?

I am wondering about the “English comment” (which did not have to be made and to me is insulting), however. You said:

How is it insulting?

So you are correct in that you did not use the words “attack post” but as you can see from you quote that was the context. IF that disturbs you… I apologize.

It doesn’t disturb me, it’s just wrong to use quotes when you’re not quoting. Please stop doing it.

No one is stating that anyone should ignore the Israeli Right. There are some very bad actors. But none of that approaches the direct commentary of Hamas and their “Kill the Jews” (MY QUOTE) rhetoric.

Okay. We disagree. That plan, which I quoted, would wind up killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Palestinians. Furthermore, as I keep saying, Hamas is a terrorist organization that rules through thuggery. Israel is a democratic republic, where leaders are elected (I know that parties are elected, technically, but people know who will be elected by doing that). The peace process will take good faith on both sides, and there is currently no sign, from Bibi’s administration, that they will make the least effort to engage in a meaningful peace process. Bibi has outright said that Israel will not give up military control of the West Bank or its borders, which pretty much ends any negotiations about West Bank sovereignty before they start.
.

Still, in the end… the issue of why Hamas supporters or critics of Israel (they are not always one in the same) have never told me how Shooting rockets at civilians is acceptable or resistance and why if that is the case why is it that they have a problem when Israel responds.

This is probably because shooting rockets at civilians is not acceptable.

You and I are off to a very bad start… SO rather than either of us insulting the other… I will back away from this conversation in the interests of peace at a new site for me.

Don’t back off. Just stop quoting me when you’re not actually quoting me. You haven’t even taken responsibility for the other times you’ve misquoted me. Just stop doing that, and things will swiftly improve.

22 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 7:19:39pm

And also, can you please link to the thread you’re talking about.

23 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 7:28:00pm

re: #22 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I cannot link because I am not a T.U. there. And it was hidden by the community. That said… the admins. and Markos received numerous complaints about it and they still have not acted. See also user New Minas that wrote a straight anti-Semetic diary there and last I checked is still posting away. I have no idea why this is being tolerated.. but I/P there has descended to a new kind of crazy there….

24 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 7:29:02pm

re: #23 Kravmavolley

I cannot link because I am not a T.U. there. And it was hidden by the community. That said… the admins. and Markos received numerous complaints about it and they still have not acted.

Isn’t it being hidden action?

See also user New Minas that wrote a straight anti-Semetic diary there and last I checked is still posting away. I have no idea why this is being tolerated.. but I/P there has descended to a new kind of crazy there….

Please just link to things when you say stuff like this. I don’t know Dkos at all: Just link to the diary.

25 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 7:41:06pm

I’d add that as well as firing rockets at civilians being unacceptable, so is firing rockets from civilian areas that you know will get pounded in counter-fire.

26 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 7:45:47pm

Being hidden is action taken by Trusted Users not the admins. When the admins. Are presented though with a straight Neo Nazi comment they are expected to take action not just accept that user as a continuous presence. The fact that the admins. have not despite repeated requests is telling.

As for the other thing …here you go: dailykos.com

27 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 7:51:20pm

re: #26 Kravmavolley

Being hidden is action taken by Trusted Users not the admins. When the admins. Are presented though with a straight Neo Nazi comment they are expected to take action not just accept that user as a continuous presence. The fact that the admins. have not despite repeated requests is telling.

I’m sorry, I really can’t tell what action you want, and against whom.

As for the other thing …here you go: dailykos.com

Thank you. It’s good to see Dkos users rejecting the antisemitism in that diary so vociferously. I agree that the person posting it should be banned.

Are you going to respond to my post, and at least acknowledge that you did, in fact, misquote me multiple times?

28 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 7:53:39pm

re: #25 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

That is more than many activists will say and I appreciate that.

As for your other post…please allow me to respond to it in the AM. I think you and I may be in disagreement here but I believe we can still have a productive conversation… and I thank you for that. That said I am now typing on a Kindle in bed icing my leg due to having major knee surgery ( and having just taken pain killers) and I am NOT entirely sure that I can give you a response that merits your points. But I would like to continue if you would be so inclined.

29 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 7:54:56pm

re: #28 Kravmavolley

That is more than many activists will say and I appreciate that.

Do you think I’m an ‘activist’?

As for your other post…please allow me to respond to it in the AM. I think you and I may be in disagreement here but I believe we can still have a productive conversation… and I thank you for that. That said I am now typing on a Kindle in bed icing my leg due to having major knee surgery ( and having just taken pain killers) and I am NOT entirely sure that I can give you a response that merits your points. But I would like to continue if you would be so inclined.

Can you acknowledge misquoting me several times, please?

30 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 7:58:57pm

re: #27 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I will say that I apologize for that and whatever Rocky start we may have had as a result.

As for being an activist…. I don’t know what your involvement may be, but no that was not implied. I was making a simple statement.

31 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 5, 2014 8:04:13pm

re: #30 Kravmavolley

I will say that I apologize for that and whatever Rocky start we may have had as a result.

Thanks. It got pretty bad when you doubled-down when I clearly showed how you’d misquoted and you insisted that you hadn’t, and continued to misquote me, but I’ll try to have trust that you’re not going to engage in similarly shady things in the future.

As for being an activist…. I don’t know what your involvement may be, but no that was not implied. I was making a simple statement.

The statement really doesn’t have a lot of meaning unless i’m an ‘activist’.

I’m really unclear on what this entire page has been about. Yes, there are people who avoid the topics of the rockets, there are others that avoid that Hamas could, if it wished, find deserted areas to launch them from. (The reason that Hamas does not do this is that Hamas would die, quickly, and they don’t care about civilian casualties.) They are bad.

But those ‘activists’ are not the reason that peace won’t occur. The reason that peace won’t occur is that on neither the Israeli or the Palestinian side is a leader who believes in the peace process and has the political will to make it so.

Until that leader emerges in both Israel and among the Palestinians, at the same time, there is not a real possibility of peace. And then it will be an enormous, uphill battle against the weight of years and the legions of the dead and the outside propaganda.

32 Kravmavolley  Aug 5, 2014 8:16:48pm

re: #31 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Heh… maybe you and I agree more than not after all….. As for page and my point… I promise to reply on that in the AM. I think it is important and I would like to better represent it than I can do now.

I am glad we could work things out… Rest assured there was no bad intent meant.

Peace.

33 goddamnedfrank  Aug 6, 2014 12:00:14am
We need to get “full stop” answers or at least have people on record as saying “Well, yeah… shooting Israeli civilians is cool with me”. At least that is an honest response for many pro-Hamas, anti-Semitic commentators. Unlike their other responses which are parsed when these folks start saying things like “Well I don’t support Hamas and I don’t really have answers to what Israel should do but, they need to stop killing civilians.’

So then what does that mean? They seem to be supporting the fact that Hamas can shoot thousands of rockets into Israel but that Israel should not defend itself? How is that not the ultimate expression of support FOR Hamas. How are they not supporting Hamas when they are asking for a cease fire in terms that Hamas sets?

Is that actually what they’re supporting? Because it seems like an intentional oversimplification of many people’s position, forcing them into a binary set. It reads, unfortunately like you’re pigeonholing those who hold honestly nuanced opinions as being dishonest, instead of say merely wrong. They simply aren’t saying the thing that you want to hear, that firing rockets at civilian areas is unacceptable. They aren’t necessarily arguing or even thinking the opposite, but you somehow want to paint people who don’t articulate the points you want was being effectively in support of Hamas. How is that helpful, persuasive, or in any way instructive?

re: #6 Kravmavolley

It’s not just a matter of “doing fuck all”… it is a matter of shooting thousands of rockets at civilians. So if they have a no problem with that… then why do they have a problem with Israeli attacks that produce collateral damage?

Possibly, and I’m just guessing here, because the Israeli attacks are the ones producing more appreciable levels of collateral damage. Not everyone is going to view the situation through the same black and white ideological framework that you want them to. Many people certainly do have a serious objection to Hamas’ shooting of rockets into civilian areas of Israel, and yet are still deeply, and honestly, bothered by the highly disproportionate body count. Many people see Israel punching down and below its weight, and they do this without in any way validating the rocket fire that motivates that punching. Many of these people still support Israel, just not in the terms you’ve erected here as the definitive litmus test on the issue.

re: #4 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

During the current campaign by Israel, more Israelis have died than in the past year from attacks by Hamas. In terms of keeping Israelis safe, the campaign of defense has not worked.

Definitely, this exactly. At least in the short term this campaign / counter-offensive has resulted in more loss of Israeli lives than Hamas’ rockets. However the mid term effects of finding and destroying the tunnel networks is a harder thing to measure. Certainly Hamas can dig again, but with the Army in control of Egypt they’re going to have a much harder time smuggling in rockets in the future.

Furthermore, the extremely troubling civilian-to-militant death ratio, as acknowledged by the IDF, is seriously wearing away Israeli support and sympathy; and Israel needs support, and sympathy.

This is probably the more important factor. The Israeli leadership seemed to be acting like it didn’t need either international support and goodwill. On top of that treating the Obama administration like an unwanted dog over earnest efforts to broker a cease fire showed a pointless disrespect towards Israel’s last and greatest ally.

re: #6 Kravmavolley

FINALLY as for ratios. Do you really want to argue that somehow Israel is at fault for spending money on a defensive infrastructure, where Hamas spent money on tunnels and Rockets to shoot Israeli citizens?

Literally nobody here argued that. I mention this because it’s another example of misrepresenting an argument, first in the abstract and now with regards to Obdicut’s point specifically. You seem to have a habit of rephrasing the plain language employed by other people into a kind of non-representational simplism that you can then attack. Not because what the other person said was wrong, but because it doesn’t conform to some preformed ideological shibboleth.

34 Romantic Heretic  Aug 6, 2014 4:53:09am

Because this has been going through my mind a lot recently.

Beware when you battle monsters,
lest you become a monster.
And as you gaze into the abyss,
The abyss gazes also,

into you.

And since this is basically a theological argument allow me to add some from my religion, or what would be if I was capable of the faith that religion requires.

To be angered by evil is to partake of it, stupid. - Phrases of Import and Salvation, Chapter IX, The Book of Universal Truths and Other Humorous Anecdotes

35 Kravmavolley  Aug 6, 2014 11:43:35am

re: #31 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Ok… I had a whole long response typed out to you and then somehow it went POOF… I will try to recreate it today as I promised I would.

36 Kravmavolley  Aug 6, 2014 6:56:22pm

re: #31 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Ok.. I owe you this. First let me apologize for the delay. With my surgery, even sitting at the keyboard is painful (leg down) so… but I have been thinking that I promised I would respond… SO….

You said:

I’m really unclear on what this entire page has been about.

So… what this post has been about is to focus the argument to it’s core because in the end this is about values and how values relate to policy. In my opinion, what this reduction leads to is much more honest place to even start to discuss the topic. I want people to question just what it is that they are really supporting and to openly discuss what they really believe. Will that make discussions more difficult.. absolutely. But.. it will make them more honest and honesty in ones arguments (as I think we can both agree is important).

Yes, there are people who avoid the topics of the rockets, there are others that avoid that Hamas could, if it wished, find deserted areas to launch them from. (The reason that Hamas does not do this is that Hamas would die, quickly, and they don’t care about civilian casualties.)

This is absolutely correct. In the conduct of their terror campaign Hamas would be out of their freakin’ minds to launch from non-civilian areas. Tactically, it would be a disaster for them. That said… people should acknowledge that and keep in mind when criticizing Israel for its justified response. By saying Israel is totally to blame is to excuse that rocket fire. Even if one doesn’t think they are doing that., that is in effect EXACTLY what they are doing. Every single time a person assigns responsibility for an Israeli strike solely on Israel, they are absolving Hamas rocketeers for their actions. IF outside communities put more heat on Hamas for their actions and realized that when they fire from civilian areas they are sacrificing Gazan civilians for tactical advantage. That needs to be acknowledged.

But those ‘activists’ are not the reason that peace won’t occur. The reason that peace won’t occur is that on neither the Israeli or the Palestinian side is a leader who believes in the peace process and has the political will to make it so.

I disagree with this in part. I do believe that there is a shortage of people on both sides who are willing to make peace, but, I do think “activists” (quoting myself here) are part and parcel of the problem. IF Hamas was not getting worldwide support in the form of condemnation of the Israelis actually defending themselves. for their monumental stupidity of continuing this fight (and it is being reported that while Israel accepts an extension to the ceasefire, Hamas rejects it) I believe that would make a difference. What if rather than focusing on Israel so called Human Rights activists actually stood for the Gazan people and insisted that Hamas actually use this time and international aid to build up their infrastructure and rebuild schools and housing. But they do not. They only insist Hamas carries on “The resistance” (which is rocketing Israeli civilians and cities) .

I agree with this comment:

Until that leader emerges in both Israel and among the Palestinians, at the same time, there is not a real possibility of peace. And then it will be an enormous, uphill battle against the weight of years and the legions of the dead and the outside propaganda.

100%

Again I apologize for the lateness of this response.

Best Regards…

37 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 6, 2014 7:31:38pm

re: #36 Kravmavolley

So… what this post has been about is to focus the argument to it’s core because in the end this is about values and how values relate to policy.

Don’t know what this means. Sounds like corporate speak.

I want people to question just what it is that they are really supporting and to openly discuss what they really believe. Will that make discussions more difficult.. absolutely. But.. it will make them more honest and honesty in ones arguments (as I think we can both agree is important).

How was posting a page on LFG about diaries on Dkos that you wouldn’t link to supposed to achieve this?

That said… people should acknowledge that and keep in mind when criticizing Israel for its justified response. By saying Israel is totally to blame is to excuse that rocket fire. Even if one doesn’t think they are doing that., that is in effect EXACTLY what they are doing. Every single time a person assigns responsibility for an Israeli strike solely on Israel, they are absolving Hamas rocketeers for their actions.

But most people assign responsibility somewhat to Israel, not totally. So that kind of messes up this narrative of yours.

IF Hamas was not getting worldwide support in the form of condemnation of the Israelis actually defending themselves. for their monumental stupidity of continuing this fight (and it is being reported that while Israel accepts an extension to the ceasefire, Hamas rejects it) I believe that would make a difference.

Why? How? Just, like, spiritually, like good vibes or something?

What if rather than focusing on Israel so called Human Rights activists actually stood for the Gazan people and insisted that Hamas actually use this time and international aid to build up their infrastructure and rebuild schools and housing.

Then Hamas would ignore them. Seriously, you think that Hamas, upon being lectured by the international community to build schools, would dig their toes in the dirt and shamefacedly start building?

They only insist Hamas carries on “The resistance” (which is rocketing Israeli civilians and cities) .

This really isn’t true. The number of people who condone the rocket attacks is small. The number of people who point out that the rocket attacks are almost completely ineffectual, and that in responding to them Israel kills large numbers of Palestinian civilians, is not small. But that is not in the least bit the same thing as condoning the rocket attacks, nor is it putting all the blame on Israel.

I hope that people committed to peace come to power once again in Israel, and that they come for the first time among the Palestinians. Right now, there is no current hope. And Israel’s continued swing to the right is far more dangerous for her long-term survival than Hamas ever could be.

38 Kravmavolley  Aug 6, 2014 10:45:22pm

re: #36 Kravmavolley

Ok…no….

Don’t know what this means. Sounds like corporate speak

I believe this my comment was perfectly clear. This discussion ultimately comes from what your core beliefs are relative to the issue.my post was to focus arguments that reach to the core of this issue.

How was posting a page on LFG about diaries on Dkos that you wouldn’t link to supposed to achieve this?

The comments and articles posted at Daily Kos were examples of what I see throughout the internet on commentary. The title of the page was not What I don’t Hear on DKos…. It was “What I Don’t Hear”. Because I STILL don’t hear people talking talking about the 3300+ rockets fired at Israeli cities and towns but I sure as shit hear a lot about how Israel shouldn’t kill civilians (of course, no one really has said how that can be avoided if they truly believe Israel has a right to self defense). By posting in what I thought was a more moderate forum, I thought that people might engage on a policy issue and not spew more of the same garbage which I see around the internet (and this part about LGF seems to be true - that there is far less “white noise” (again not quoting you.. just using a turn of a phrase) here.

But most people assign responsibility somewhat to Israel, not totally. So that kind of messes up this narrative of yours.

You know… maybe on this site it does but throughout the internet no most people don’t give this a fair shake, not by a long shot. What I see is a whole lot of analysis on Israeli Strikes and only cursory call-out regarding Hamas’ rocket fire and ZERO discussion of what Israel should have done to defend itself outside of giving into Hamas’ demands. So no.. it does not mess up any “narrative” of mine.

Then Hamas would ignore them. Seriously, you think that Hamas, upon being lectured by the international community to build schools, would dig their toes in the dirt and shamefacedly start building?

Yes that is exactly what I think.. Hamas would not ignore them. Hamas wants power and international legitimacy, hence Masha’als charm offensive in 2009 where Khaled Meshaal went to great lengths to impress upon the U.S. and the new administration along with the E.U. that Hamas were not a bunch of lunatic terrorists. Gaza right now is fully dependent on foreign aid and nations that actively support them (outside of Iran) generally don’t want their investments put to risk. IF Hamas’ leaders can profit, you can bet that they will do exactly that because really… when just what happened settles on and the people of Gaza look around, they are NOT going to be happy if Hamas goes right back to tunnelling and buying rockets.

This really isn’t true. The number of people who condone the rocket attacks is small. The number of people who point out that the rocket attacks are almost completely ineffectual, and that in responding to them Israel kills large numbers of Palestinian civilians, is not small. But that is not in the least bit the same thing as condoning the rocket attacks, nor is it putting all the blame on Israel.

Really now.. all over social media and other sites there is much praise of Hamas’ “resistance” (AGAIN NOT QUOTING YOU - just using the terms), And yes you are correct that they do not mention the rocket attacks by name and that is my point. What they need to do is define “resistance”. They simply don’t mention the rocket attacks and just sort of let those slide.

That the rocket attacks are ineffectual means absolutely nothing to me. Zero, Nada, Zilch. It is a ridiculous argument. Hamas fires thousands of rockets with murderous intent, they are not shooting these things off to hear them go “boom”, they are trying to wreck havoc on civil targets. The fact of the matter is that Israel spent a lot of money and time protecting it’s citizens against said attacks. Not Israel’s fault they give a crap about their civilians (something Hamas clearly does not do).

And by not mentioning it.. It is the same as supporting the rocket attacks because it makes an argument by only presenting one side.

Finally:

I hope that people committed to peace come to power once again in Israel, and that they come for the first time among the Palestinians

I agree. .as a long time supporter of the Israeli Center / Center Left I think it is time for people that want to give negotiations a chance. Hence my support for President Obama’s initiatives.

And as for the Israeli Right…. I am not supporter of theirs and I think they represent a dangerous trend, but If I had to choose between them and Hamas I would choose them. Thankfully I don’t have to make that choice. I can support the Israeli Center / Center Left.

39 goddamnedfrank  Aug 7, 2014 12:13:33am

re: #38 Kravmavolley

Ok…no….

I believe this my comment was perfectly clear. This discussion ultimately comes from what your core beliefs are relative to the issue.my post was to focus arguments that reach to the core of this issue.

Why do you feel the need to “focus” other people’s arguments at all? I ask because in doing so you appear to be making the gigantic assumption that certain arguments were dishonest, and the hallmark of Hamas supporters playing some kind of dishonest PR game. Do you remember this?

We need to get “full stop” answers or at least have people on record as saying “Well, yeah… shooting Israeli civilians is cool with me”. At least that is an honest response for many pro-Hamas, anti-Semitic commentators. Unlike their other responses which are parsed when these folks start saying things like “Well I don’t support Hamas and I don’t really have answers to what Israel should do but, they need to stop killing civilians.’

So then what does that mean? They seem to be supporting the fact that Hamas can shoot thousands of rockets into Israel but that Israel should not defend itself? How is that not the ultimate expression of support FOR Hamas. How are they not supporting Hamas when they are asking for a cease fire in terms that Hamas sets?

Do you even see what you did there? You’re totally comfortable telling us what these people “seem to be supporting” even though nothing in the plain language of the example given would lead to any conclusion of overt support. You flat out twist an opinion that expressly denies support for Hamas into an “ultimate expression of support FOR Hamas.” Also implicit in your construction is the implication that “these folks” who make such comments as the example you give are not only pro-Hamas, but anti-Semitic. Why do you assume such people are anti-Semitic, absent any actual expressions of anti-Semitism, thinly veiled or otherwise?

The fact is that in the vast majority of cases people who make such statements aren’t supporting Hamas, neither are they being at all dishonest or cryptic in their opinion. The expression of not knowing what Israel should do in response to the rocket fire in no way condones that rocket fire, it’s just an admission of one’s own personal limitations. As I stated above, this appears to be rooted in an absolute rejection of nuance. You are selling a denial of the idea that people can be pro Israel while simultaneously being personally troubled by the large and disproportionate number of civilian casualties in Gaza. In reality people can honestly hold both opinions, there’s no deception nor for that matter any cognitive dissonance at play.

You’re free to think that they’re naive, or wrong, or whatever, but the charge you’ve leveled in this thread, that such sentiments are dishonest, intrinsically pro-Hamas, and indicative of anti-Semitic personalities is both vituperative and not at all conducive to reality.

40 goddamnedfrank  Aug 7, 2014 12:38:31am

re: #38 Kravmavolley

That the rocket attacks are ineffectual means absolutely nothing to me. Zero, Nada, Zilch. It is a ridiculous argument. Hamas fires thousands of rockets with murderous intent, they are not shooting these things off to hear them go “boom”, they are trying to wreck havoc on civil targets. The fact of the matter is that Israel spent a lot of money and time protecting it’s citizens against said attacks. Not Israel’s fault they give a crap about their civilians (something Hamas clearly does not do).

Ignoring for the moment your somewhat glib, perfunctory dismissal, this concern is genuinely held by a sizable chunk of the world’s nations and people. You don’t necessarily need to share or agree with it in order to believe that widespread sentiment is something Israel needs to input into their international political calculations.

People, rightly I think, hold Israel to a much higher standard than they do its enemies. The fact that Israel has put such energy into building shelters and developing such an effective early warning system is part of that higher standard. Also, historically, is the extreme level of restraint Israel has shown in the face of Palestinian aggression. It’s not a particularly compelling argument to say that people should turn a blind eye to large numbers of civilian casualties in Gaza simply because Hamas is a violent, incorrigible shit-weasel. Everyone knows that, it’s not surprising. Do you really want it to become less and less surprising to the people of the world for Israel to respond with such a heavy hand? Do you really want the rest of the world to stop associating Israel with that higher standard?

41 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 7, 2014 3:25:20am

re: #38 Kravmavolley

I believe this my comment was perfectly clear. This discussion ultimately comes from what your core beliefs are relative to the issue.my post was to focus arguments that reach to the core of this issue.

Again, still just corporate speak to me. I don’t know what this actually means.

The comments and articles posted at Daily Kos were examples of what I see throughout the internet on commentary.

The comments on the one diary you linked to, the openly anti-semitic one, were mostly attacking the antisemitism of the article.

Because I STILL don’t hear people talking talking about the 3300+ rockets fired at Israeli cities and towns but I sure as shit hear a lot about how Israel shouldn’t kill civilians (of course, no one really has said how that can be avoided if they truly believe Israel has a right to self defense).

First of all, people talk about the rockets all the time. Even people minimizing the rockets and calling them ‘fireworks’, as I’ve seen in various places, are talking about them.

And again, even if you have the right to something it doesn’t mean it’s the best idea to do it. Israel’s right to self-defense should be balanced against an expectation of what exercising that right will actually do. In this latest round of bombing, I don’t see Hamas having been weakened, and I see the average Palestinian less likely to believe Israel actually wants a peace process than before. There is also a lot of dead Palestinian civilians. You have ignored, and not dealt at all with, the fact that more Israelis have died during this campaign than have in the past many months from Hamas attacks.

What I see is a whole lot of analysis on Israeli Strikes and only cursory call-out regarding Hamas’ rocket fire and ZERO discussion of what Israel should have done to defend itself outside of giving into Hamas’ demands.

Well, it’s easy to see zero when you just ignore the arguments, as above.

Gaza right now is fully dependent on foreign aid and nations that actively support them (outside of Iran) generally don’t want their investments put to risk.

Investments? What are you talking about? You think that there’s a lot of foreign investment in Gaza?

I’m sorry, but this idea that if people finger-wagged harder at Hamas they’d behave better is just a fantasy to me. I don’t even understand why you believe it to be true, why you think that Hamas wants international legitimacy more than they want to continue fighting Israel.

IF Hamas’ leaders can profit, you can bet that they will do exactly that because really… when just what happened settles on and the people of Gaza look around, they are NOT going to be happy if Hamas goes right back to tunnelling and buying rockets.

Why do you believe this? The people of Gaza are reading Israeli material calling for their destruction coming from people in the Israeli government, they can hear Bibi saying that a two-state solution is impossible. Why is this time, no really, this time going to be the tipping point where Palestinians lose all support for Hamas, and how would that even matter to Hamas, which hasn’t held elections in 7 years?

That the rocket attacks are ineffectual means absolutely nothing to me. Zero, Nada, Zilch. It is a ridiculous argument. Hamas fires thousands of rockets with murderous intent, they are not shooting these things off to hear them go “boom”, they are trying to wreck havoc on civil targets. The fact of the matter is that Israel spent a lot of money and time protecting it’s citizens against said attacks. Not Israel’s fault they give a crap about their civilians (something Hamas clearly does not do).

That the rockets are ineffectual is a fact, and so it should mean something to you. I completely agree that you can’t figure out who is more moral by comparing casualties, but at the end of the day, Israel is killing far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas is killing Israeli citizens. Far, far more. People who’s brothers, mothers, wives, girlfriends, best friends, co-workers have been killed by an Israeli bomb hitting a location where Hamas terrorists fired a rocket from yesterday may blame Hamas, but they’re definitely going to blame Israel for it as well. Whether or not this is a sensible or rational attribution of blame is besides the point: It is what will happen.

And by not mentioning it.. It is the same as supporting the rocket attacks because it makes an argument by only presenting one side.

I’m sorry, I can’t tell: are you saying this is true of me, by saying that the rockets are ineffective and that Israel kills more civilians than Hamas doe? Are you saying that I’m supporting the rocket attacks?

And as for the Israeli Right…. I am not supporter of theirs and I think they represent a dangerous trend, but If I had to choose between them and Hamas I would choose them. Thankfully I don’t have to make that choice. I can support the Israeli Center / Center Left.

I have no idea why you’re talking about choosing between them and Hamas, since, as you pointed out, you don’t have to. What I’m saying is that the Israeli right is in power in Israel, and they are openly and tacitly declaring the peace process dead. You seem to want to avoid looking at any way that that affects the conflict.


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