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1 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 8:03:15am

Okay a separation of powers win. A loss for the GOP. I get that.

It’s also an unfortunate loss for parents. This option that might have given them more options in educational choices for their kids is going off the table. Couple that with strict residential boundaries to attend the better public schools and a financial inability by many for private schooling and it’s a rock and a hard place for middle class parents.

Next option-Home schooling, and look at what people say about that. So if the schools where you can live really suck, you are now officially stuck.

2 Flying Squirrel Girl  Aug 22, 2014 8:15:24am

As someone who attended an inner city school in Dallas that was extremely poor, I have always wondered how these vouchers were going to help poor kids. Any of the kids who rode the school bus at my school would not have be able to take advantage of the opportunity to go to a private school in a better neighborhood, because there was no free transportation to get them there. That’s why they rode the school bus in the first place. Even though we were poor by most standards, my mom had a car and drove us to school. But being a single mom and a waitress, she had neither the time nor the money to take us to any school other than the one closest to our house. So vouchers or no, we would have attended the same inner city school because it was convenient. Poor people’s lives are like that. Although their kids may have the CHANCE to attend the best school in the city, the reality is that their parents probably can’t afford the inconvenience.

3 Randall Gross  Aug 22, 2014 9:58:52am

You have it right FSG: by catering vouchers to the people who want & can afford to send their kids to a private school they are robbing from the total tax pool that funds public education. Taking money from public schools to send it to sectarian religious schools is always a bad choice for voters.

4 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 10:23:57am

re: #3 Randall Gross

The trade off is less opportunity for those that need it most. Harsh hard cold trade off there. And-If the state has a given budget per student at a certain grade level, he is taking that with him, not taking from someone else.

This reminds me of Voter ID-The way the GOP wants to do it is a really bad idea, yet a different approach such as existing law (HAVA) makers excellent sense.

The root of our disagreement is crappy schools in poor areas. So we have to accept the given that those schools are not being improved enough, fast enough to leave it be. Parents deserve options.

What do we let them have now? How do we resolve the conflict between separation of powers and better education options for middle and lower income families?

What is really unfair is to take away options and replace them with “too bad”.

5 cinesimon  Aug 22, 2014 10:25:51am

re: #1 Rightwingconspirator

This ‘choices’, and ‘options’ sales point is, by and large, a lie - unless you as a parent want your kid to be taught by conservative fundamentalists.
It’s a scam. It sounds pretty, but it’s a total lie.

6 cinesimon  Aug 22, 2014 10:29:15am

re: #4 Rightwingconspirator

Spreading a tight, ever reducing budget between two schools is not the answer. And it’s not a choice of good vs bad schools - that’s a fantasy.
The answer, if you want actual choice, is to increase funding so there is a real choice - but that’s not happening. And much of the money with the supposedly ‘better’ school is being siphoned off as profit.

7 iossarian  Aug 22, 2014 10:41:36am

re: #6 cinesimon

Spreading a tight, ever reducing budget between two schools is not the answer. And it’s not a choice of good vs bad schools - that’s a fantasy.
The answer, if you want actual choice, is to increase funding so there is a real choice - but that’s not happening. And much of the money with the supposedly ‘better’ school is being siphoned off as profit.

Exactly. Why not take the voucher money and put it into the schools that serve the poorest segment of the population?

The whole point of vouchers is to take a form of wealth redistribution (everyone pays for public schools regardless of whether they can afford to go private) and redirect some of the money back to wealthier segments of the population.

8 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 10:45:06am

re: #6 cinesimon

Spreading a tight, ever reducing budget between two schools is not the answer. And it’s not a choice of good vs bad schools - that’s a fantasy.
The answer, if you want actual choice, is to increase funding so there is a real choice - but that’s not happening. And much of the money with the supposedly ‘better’ school is being siphoned off as profit.

Up top, the GOP lies, facts on the ground don’t. Next well I’ll be happy to entertain the bigger school budget option when it becomes available and not one second before.

It’s Wimpy all over again. “I’ll gladly pay you on Tuesday for a delicious hamburger today”.

Video

Good vs bad schools is a myth? Sounds like rhetoric to me not factual at all.

Accept the the fact that this is a tough trade off. Life is hard that way sometimes I see no reason to pretend bad schools are a myth and better schools in poor neighborhoods are right around the corner. Especially as you point out budgets being too tight to let even a little bit go to a secular private school. Or to pay teachers for home schooling.

Politicians and academics decide, parents pay and pay and pay.

9 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 10:46:29am

re: #7 iossarian

Like to call you attention to the 2nd paragraph in my #4

This reminds me of Voter ID-The way the GOP wants to do it is a really bad idea, yet a different approach such as existing law (HAVA) makers excellent sense.

10 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 10:56:34am

re: #7 iossarian

re: #6 cinesimon

Oh and robbing school class room budgets to refill mismanaged teacher retirement accounts like Jerry Brown and the legislature approved here in California is a lot more damaging in the classrooms IMO than vouchers would be. My word what a scam. Present the case for a tax increase “for schools” and send it to investment bankers.

Wow. Where was the outrage?

11 iossarian  Aug 22, 2014 10:57:47am

re: #9 Rightwingconspirator

Based on your previous comment:

The root of our disagreement is crappy schools in poor areas. So we have to accept the given that those schools are not being improved enough, fast enough to leave it be. Parents deserve options.

What do we let them have now? How do we resolve the conflict between separation of powers and better education options for middle and lower income families?

What is really unfair is to take away options and replace them with “too bad”.

If you have a fixed amount of money to spend on public schools, then cutting base funding and offering parents vouchers that are portable outside of the public system is going to wind up as a subsidy to those who can already afford private education, unless you means-test them or do some other form of redistribution.

The “better way of doing things” is to give everyone a minimum guaranteed income that is sufficient to pay for decent:

- accommodation
- food
- education
- healthcare

and possibly other items I’m leaving out, and then “let the market decide”. Pretty far left for the US though.

12 iossarian  Aug 22, 2014 11:00:38am

re: #10 Rightwingconspirator

Oh and robbing school class room budgets to refill mismanaged teacher retirement accounts like Jerry Brown and the legislature approved here in California is a lot more damaging in the classrooms IMO than vouchers would be. My word what a scam. Present the case for a tax increase “for schools” and send it to investment bankers.

Wow. Where was the outrage?

Possibly among the people who correctly realize that the US legal system makes it impossible to prosecute fraudulent investment advice that has impoverished or bankrupted many civic groups, being biased as it is towards “job creators”?

It’s a little annoying dealing with these correct observations of yours about social injustice since they jibe against what I usually interpret as your overall right-wing viewpoint. If you don’t like investment bankers robbing municipalities of their tax dollars then there’s a party you can vote for and it isn’t the GOP.

13 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 11:02:04am

re: #11 iossarian

Based on your previous comment:

If you have a fixed amount of money to spend on public schools, then cutting base funding and offering parents vouchers that are portable outside of the public system is going to wind up as a subsidy to those who can already afford private education, unless you means-test them or do some other form of redistribution.

The “better way of doing things” is to give everyone a minimum guaranteed income that is sufficient to pay for decent:

- accommodation
- food
- education
- healthcare

and possibly other items I’m leaving out, and then “let the market decide”. Pretty far left for the US though.

Bad premise. It’s not a fixed number it’s a negotiated number. State budgets vary per year, negotiating strength moves around. Like again cash for retirement accounts can’t get into a classroom now can it?

And by the way the connection between budgets and academic outcome is pretty thin. And I never said “let the market decide” That sounds like Koch rhetoric. I’m far more specific-Parents deserve options. They pay for it.

14 iossarian  Aug 22, 2014 11:14:29am

re: #13 Rightwingconspirator

Bad premise. It’s not a fixed number it’s a negotiated number. State budgets vary per year, negotiating strength moves around.

OK, but once you’ve agreed on the amount there are ways of distributing it that are more or less helpful to poor families. School vouchers generally take money away from poorer families and hand it to people who can afford private school.

Like again cash for retirement accounts can’t get into a classroom now can it?

I’m not sure what to make of this. Are you saying that municipalities should break their pension contracts with retired teachers, bearing in mind that those teachers worked a demanding job for modest pay, and that the retirement package was presumably something that factored into that choice?

And by the way the connection between budgets and academic outcome is pretty thin.

Is it now? In that case, we’ll have no problem persuading well-funded suburban school districts to share their property tax revenues with the cities they surround, since it won’t affect their kids’ academic outcomes!

15 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 11:32:01am
I’m not sure what to make of this. Are you saying that municipalities should break their pension contracts with retired teachers, bearing in mind that those teachers worked a demanding job for modest pay, and that the retirement package was presumably something that factored into that choice?

Remember those monies are going into investment accounts, so it’s not just straight to retirement checks. it’s refunding what amounts to a big trust run by big banks. bait and switch is totally unacceptable-New taxes for schools was what was said, printed and put to a vote. What happened to a lot of that money was it went to a bank or investment account.

I had linked a study long ago that showed that local control of the money is what makes the difference. One easy way to see how budget gets detached from academics is the administration and infrastructure spending. Like 250 million dollars for a high school featuring fancy architecture. (LAUSD) Or building a school on a gas field and abandoning it. None of those wasted dollars bumped a grade up.

16 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 11:37:24am

re: #12 iossarian

If you don’t like investment bankers robbing municipalities of their tax dollars then there’s a party you can vote for and it isn’t the GOP.

i’m an unusual man. I do lean right but have not voted GOP for quite a long time.

——————————————-
Wrong study my bad… Gotta get that older study I found

17 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 11:46:54am

Aha here we go link to an old comment that has the link…

littlegreenfootballs.com

abc7.com

Okay, 68 Billion is the money spent on K-12 in California. About six million students. Divide that. That’s more than $11,000 per student per year.

Highest per-pupil spending
Washington, D.C. - $18,667
New York - $18,618
New Jersey - $16,841
Alaska - $15,783
Vermont - $15,274
Wyoming - $15,169
Connecticut - $14,906
Massachusetts - $14,350
Maryland - $13,738
Rhode Island - $13,699

Lowest per-pupil spending
Utah - $6,064
Idaho - $7,106
Arizona - $7,848
Oklahoma - $7,896
Tennessee - $8,065
Mississippi - $8,119
North Carolina - $8,409
Nevada - $8,483
Florida -$8,741
Texas - $8,746

So let’s look at results.
STAR test scores up despite statewide school budget cuts
RESEDA, LOS ANGELES (KABC) — The scores are in for Southern California students who took the annual STAR exam. Despite cutbacks and layoffs, scores are up for the ninth straight year. They’re at their highest levels since the testing began.

18 Randall Gross  Aug 22, 2014 11:50:02am

It’s a ploy to prop up failing sectarian schools. Everyone realizes this by now RWC.

19 William of Orange  Aug 22, 2014 12:07:35pm

re: #1 Rightwingconspirator

Okay a separation of powers win. A loss for the GOP. I get that.

It’s also an unfortunate loss for parents. This option that might have given them more options in educational choices for their kids is going off the table. Couple that with strict residential boundaries to attend the better public schools and a financial inability by many for private schooling and it’s a rock and a hard place for middle class parents.

Next option-Home schooling, and look at what people say about that. So if the schools where you can live really suck, you are now officially stuck.

What option would that be? Syphening money from public schools makes them even weaker. So choosing a private school is the way to go? What choice is that? A strong public school is at least a strong choice.

20 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 12:24:25pm

re: #19 William of Orange
re: #18 Randall Gross

It’s a ploy to prop up failing sectarian schools. Everyone realizes this by now RWC.

No, well maybe the way the GOP wants to play it, but I had done my best to separate a fairly motivated voucher system from what the GOP suggests. I don’t see good reason to throw out the whole idea over a partisan implementation.

if a sectarian school is out performing the available public schools, it’s rather elitist to exclude middle and lower income students.

constitutional law trumped the parents. Okay, accepted, but there is an obligation to accommodate parents in areas of poor public schools..

How would you feel about vouchers being used to pay for accredited teachers coming to homes?

21 Amory Blaine  Aug 22, 2014 12:28:58pm

I am vehemently opposed to tax money going to schools that can arbitrarily fire staff (i.e. single pregnant women, gay personnel, etc.).

22 Randall Gross  Aug 22, 2014 12:40:50pm

Except for the most elite of private schools in large metro areas they can’t survive much longer without public dollars. Their enrollments are falling, not rising. Without public vouchers many private schools will close down. This puts those kids and their parents back in public schools where they are desperately needed. It’s the parents that make the schools, which has been shown time after time in study after study, and when you take the parents who care the most out of the public school system via artificial voucher systems, you pull out the parents who are going to make the schools set higher standards, do better, and achieve more.

23 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 12:46:42pm

re: #21 Amory Blaine

Not sure that’s just private schools. Thinking redneckistan here.

Gonna move on. Some days you disagree with your friends. :-)

24 Flying Squirrel Girl  Aug 22, 2014 1:10:12pm

re: #22 Randall Gross

THIS. All the updings in the world for this.

25 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 22, 2014 3:49:17pm

Open question-
How would you feel about vouchers being used to pay for accredited teachers coming to homes?

26 Decatur Deb  Aug 22, 2014 4:18:43pm

re: #21 Amory Blaine

I am vehemently opposed to tax money going to schools that can arbitrarily fire staff (i.e. single pregnant women, gay personnel, etc.).

The shift of tax dollars to private schools generally meets a secondary RW goal—union busting.

27 CriticalDragon1177  Aug 23, 2014 4:23:08pm

Randall Gross,

I’m so glad the religious right is losing in our courts. I don’t want money funneled out of our public schools so parents don’t have to pay extra to indoctronate their kids in things like “scientific” creationism.


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