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1 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 10:58:59am

Damn it all to hell. *flips desk*

Not gonna tweet this one because I know it’s what the ISIS assholes want.

2 blueraven  Sep 2, 2014 11:13:27am

So sad. His mother’s video plea to ISIS was so desperate. I cant even imagine…

Note again the orange garb worn by the journalist. They continue to use symbolism of Guantanamo as a recruitment tool.
Not to lessen the barbaric nature of these fuckers at all. It is just a fact.

ISIS must be destroyed. The entire world needs to come together to rain hell-fire down upon them.

3 Dr. Matt  Sep 2, 2014 11:18:44am

At times like this I revert to my hawkish youth and say, “bomb the living fuck of them”,

4 Rightwingconspirator  Sep 2, 2014 11:27:40am

Let’s do this about the ISIS militants-No pressers, downplay everything they do publicly. Behind the scenes-Use all that post 9-11 technology and intel and ruin their day, every day until they can only squeak like a farm mouse. Let them fear the sky itself.

5 Eclectic Cyborg  Sep 2, 2014 11:49:18am

Wait, so even the Islamic militants blame Obama for the trouble in the Mideast?

Dude can’t catch a break.

6 No Country For Old Haters  Sep 2, 2014 12:08:33pm

re: #3 Dr. Matt

At times like this I revert to my hawkish youth and say, “bomb the living fuck of them”,

It almost seems like that is what ISIS wants. I’ve always been against allowing governments to kill anyone, and I’m against international adventures, but I’m not going to protest if the U.S. wants to wipe them out.

7 Dr. Matt  Sep 2, 2014 12:50:13pm

re: #6 No Country For Old Haters

It almost seems like that is what ISIS wants. I’ve always been against allowing governments to kill anyone, and I’m against international adventures, but I’m not going to protest if the U.S. wants to wipe them out.

Well said. We (the US) is in a tough situation; there really isn’t a right response….damned if we do, damned if we don’t.

8 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 12:51:52pm

re: #6 No Country For Old Haters

It almost seems like that is what ISIS wants. I’ve always been against allowing governments to kill anyone, and I’m against international adventures, but I’m not going to protest if the U.S. wants to wipe them out.

If there were a way to wipe them out without a bunch of “collateral damage”, then I’d be on board with that, but I don’t see how it could work. The last thing we need is to provide these assholes with a bunch of war porn images of dead women, children, and elderly civilians that they can use to attract new recruits.

9 Ryan King  Sep 2, 2014 12:59:31pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

If there were a way to wipe them out without a bunch of “collateral damage”, then I’d be on board with that, but I don’t see how it could work. The last thing we need is to provide these assholes with a bunch of war porn images of dead women, children, and elderly civilians that they can use to attract new recruits.

Yes, because they’d do what Fox News is doing: run that imagery 24/7 to fire up their potential recruits.

Was in a deli this AM getting some brekky and Fox was on Sotloff the entire time.

10 iossarian  Sep 2, 2014 1:42:51pm

re: #5 Eclectic Cyborg

Wait, so even the Islamic militants blame Obama for the trouble in the Mideast?

Dude can’t catch a break.

I’ll admit that this caused a wry smile.

Kind of sad that the past 10-15 years have taught us nothing. Yeah, let’s go in there guns blazing and kill a bunch of people.

That’ll sort things out. Great plan.

11 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 1:54:12pm

re: #10 iossarian

Yeah, when I think about ii, it just seems to devolve. We had Mujaheddin fighting the Russians back in the late ’70s & early ’80s then the whole thing kinda morphed & spread out, and I’m not even counting all their allies & sub-groups:

Mujaheddin > Taliban > Al Qaeda > Al Shabab > Boko Haram > ISIS > …?

We keep thinking these groups can’t possibly get any worse—until they do.

12 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 1:54:32pm

re: #9 Ryan King

Exactly.

13 nines09  Sep 2, 2014 2:29:07pm

re: #11 CuriousLurker

Yeah, when I think about ii, it just seems to devolve. We had Mujaheddin fighting the Russians back in the late ’70s & early ’80s then the whole thing kinda morphed & spread out, and I’m not even counting all their allies & sub-groups:

Mujaheddin > Taliban > Al Qaeda > Al Shabab > Boko Haram > ISIS > …?

We keep thinking these groups can’t possibly get any worse—until they do.

ISIS serves some ones purpose, just as Al Qaeda did and still does. That is who you are fighting. The proxy wars never end. CL, I do not profess to know a whole lot of the varied layers of Islam, but this seems to be the money trail.To understand. This is not new.

14 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 2:59:29pm

re: #13 nines09

ISIS serves some ones purpose, just as Al Qaeda did and still does. That is who you are fighting. The proxy wars never end. CL, I do not profess to know a whole lot of the varied layers of Islam, but this seems to be the money trail.To understand. This is not new.

If it’s about money & Gulf/Saudi politics (which is essentially what the Wahhabi thing is about, power through alliance with the House of Saud) , then it’s not really about Islam—at least not any more than the religious wingnuttery of the TP and people like Ted Cruz, Sarah Palin, Brian Fischer, et al are about Christianity.

The thing is, the Saudi royals fear those groups. Read up on the 1979 Grand Mosque seizure (in Mecca) that happened back around the same time as the Iranian Revolution.1 You’re right, all this crazy shit goes wayyy back, however it didn’t all happen in a vacuum.

——————————————————————

1. Be sure to check the footnotes & further reading sections.

15 nines09  Sep 2, 2014 3:32:55pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Never in a vacuum. We took the place of the British, French and Dutch as the enforcer. To favor/protect House Saud,

16 missliberties  Sep 2, 2014 3:42:24pm

It annoys me that these beheadings are part of their PR strategy precisely because ‘it’ works.

My sympathies to the journalist and his family.

17 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 3:47:38pm

If civilian deaths prevent us from doing what we must to win this war, we have succumbed to the terrorists and their methods. Ultimately defeating the likes of ISIS, hezbollah, hamas, al qaeda, boko haram, al shabaab, and the rulers of iran is civilization’s only hope to survive and thrive. Beating these gangs and the mullahs down will ultimately SAVE many civilian lives and give the survivors a chance for a better life. And yes, that includes the Palestinians. About a month ago I posted on this board that the POTUS was going to have to “open a can of whoop ass” on someone and that I hoped he would choose wisely. Now we all know who his target should be and that is ISIS.

18 klys  Sep 2, 2014 3:49:17pm

re: #17 _RememberTonyC

I don’t have enough downdings to give someone who thinks that avoiding unnecessary civilian deaths means the terrorists have won. WTF?

19 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 3:50:43pm

then we will lose …. some things are unavoidable and in war, this is how it has always been. unfortunate but true.

20 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 3:54:49pm

re: #18 klys

of course you try to avoid the death of innocents, but when the bad guys hide among the civilians you are surrendering if you fail to go after the bad guys because of those tactics. The fault of the civilian deaths is on the terrorists, not us.

21 wrenchwench  Sep 2, 2014 4:20:45pm

re: #20 _RememberTonyC

of course you try to avoid the death of innocents, but when the bad guys hide among the civilians you are surrendering if you fail to go after the bad guys because of those tactics. The fault of the civilian deaths is on the terrorists, not us.

No possible tactical shift? Only surrender? I’m glad you’re not in the Pentagon.

22 goddamnedfrank  Sep 2, 2014 4:52:02pm

re: #17 _RememberTonyC

If civilian deaths prevent us from doing what we must to win this war, we have succumbed to the terrorists and their methods.

This is kind of fatuous, and circular, begs the question. What must we do? And why exactly will consideration made to avoid or minimize civilian casualties prevent us from doing it? You’ve basically presumed the conclusion, classic logical fallacy.

About a month ago I posted on this board that the POTUS was going to have to “open a can of whoop ass” on someone and that I hoped he would choose wisely. Now we all know who his target should be and that is ISIS.

Yeah, here’s your earlier comment:

at some point in time, Obama is going to have to open a can of whoop ass on one of the world’s bad actors ….. i just hope he chooses wisely.

That was kind of retarded, thinking Obama needs to militarily fuck up some random target simply for the sake of doing it. It’s almost like you’ve got some kind of war boner and just want to see shit get blown up, because that will make America seem more badass or something. Classic dick-swagger mentality.

23 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 5:09:09pm
24 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 5:11:35pm

re: #22 goddamnedfrank

*scribbles note to self: Add gdf to the list of lizards to never piss off…*

25 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 5:20:05pm

I think Mahmoud Abbas agrees with me about hamas … timesofisrael.com

26 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 5:21:08pm

re: #22 goddamnedfrank

I meant he needed to identify someone who DESERVES an ass whooping and deliver one. That is how you win in war.

27 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 5:21:42pm

re: #21 wrenchwench

Don’t be afraid to win …. There is a lot at stake ….

28 wrenchwench  Sep 2, 2014 5:23:48pm

re: #27 _RememberTonyC

Don’t be afraid to win …. There is a lot at stake ….

Who said I’m afraid to win?

Maybe you should be afraid of unnecessarily killing a bunch of children, thereby winning the battle but losing the war.

29 klys  Sep 2, 2014 5:24:24pm

re: #27 _RememberTonyC

Curious: how many civilians are you willing to sacrifice in order to win? Which civilians?

How do you differentiate this from what the terrorists are doing, being willing to sacrifice civilians on the opposing side in order to “win” their ideological conflict?

30 Pie-onist Overlord  Sep 2, 2014 5:31:23pm

As soon as the carpet bombing commences, ISIS will evaporate and we will have piles of dead women, children and elderly.

31 klys  Sep 2, 2014 5:33:03pm

re: #30 Pie-onist Overlord

As soon as the carpet bombing commences, ISIS will evaporate and we will have piles of dead women, children and elderly.

I’m sure that will teach them and not increase recruitment for terrorist organizations!

Except for the part where it absolutely will, besides poisoning the civilian populace against the country doing the carpet bombing. Funny how that works.

32 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 5:37:33pm

re: #29 klys

I can’t help but wonder: If the ability & willingness to deliver an “ass whooping” is all that’s needed to “win in war”, then why hasn’t Israel been able to win in its war after so many decades… It certainly has the ability, so it must be missing the willingness. I mean, look what just happened in Gaza recently—all that death & destruction and Hamas is still there.

33 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 5:37:33pm

This is why this place is so frustrating … You want absolutes …. You want the world to always be black and white … 90 degree angles and straight lines. I wish nobody innocent was killed, but the world doesn’t conform to our wishes. Syria has close to 200,000 dead …. It’s the worst mass murder in MANY years … Maybe since World War II. That regime, backed by Hezbollah and the Iranian regime allowed ISIS to flourish as a reaction to state sponsored barbarism. Iran also backed Maliki in Iraq, which also created conditions for ISIS to grow there. They are far more culpable for the civilian bloodshed than any other groups. As scary as ISIS is, next to the Iranian regime, they really are the JV’s. ISIS wants a caliphate, but The Islamic Republic (note the similar name) of Iran beat them to it. So my answer is “I don’t know,” but when it comes to bad actors in the world, you will not beat them if you decline to fight.

34 goddamnedfrank  Sep 2, 2014 5:38:52pm

re: #26 _RememberTonyC

I meant he needed to identify someone who DESERVES an ass whooping and deliver one. That is how you win in war.

No, it’s not. It’s the same old rock stupid conflation of a strategy with a desired outcome. There damned near a never ending supply of people deserve an ass kicking, but that doesn’t make waging a war against them a good idea (North Korea, Pakistan, Iran) or winnable (Putin’s Russia.) Nor does it make the aftermath of such a war manageable or leave the conquered land in any way governable. That’s the problem with ISIS in Syria and Iraq. Bush destabilized the entire region, without a goddamned clue in the world about how to fix it.

Now you want Obama to emulate Bush’s retardation, because reasons, like ass whooping and winning. It’s almost like conservatives are the dumbest motherfuckers imaginable.

35 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 5:39:56pm

re: #32 CuriousLurker

If Israel weren’t forced to prematurely end that conflict, it WOULD beat hamas down. Maybe next time this happens, President H.R. Clinton will let them finish the job.

36 Pie-onist Overlord  Sep 2, 2014 5:42:24pm
37 klys  Sep 2, 2014 5:43:43pm

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

There is so much irony in the first two lines of this comment I can’t even.

38 _RememberTonyC  Sep 2, 2014 5:44:31pm

re: #34 goddamnedfrank

Obama was dealt certain circumstances and we gave him the job with the expectation that he would improve things. He did not. I was actually GLAD he admitted he had no strategy (not just a RWNJ talking point as CNN and others on the left acknowledged). I saw it as a possible cry for help. He needs to tweak his methods and I hope he lets others into his circle of advisors. He needs to do better than he is doing now. Going after ISIS is necessary, and I’m glad he is going after them. He should up the ante.

39 klys  Sep 2, 2014 5:44:55pm

re: #38 _RememberTonyC

You don’t actually read the articles here, do you.

40 lostlakehiker  Sep 2, 2014 5:46:02pm

There are ways to wage war that hold down civilian casualties. There are ways to wage war that maximize them…for instance, and in increasing order of gravity, siege, massacre, ethnic cleansing, and death camps.

ISIS has not, to my knowledge, built gas chambers and herded people to their deaths there, but they’ve done everything else.

Standing idly by while ISIS wipes out another community, another town, is not a policy to avoid civilian deaths. It’s a policy to avoid civilian deaths that are one’s own direct responsibility.

All lives count. These guys have to be stopped, and we’ll be paralyzed if we discount the lives we’re saving to nothing, and count only the ones we might accidentally take because our targeting cannot be perfect.

41 Rightwingconspirator  Sep 2, 2014 5:54:00pm

re: #17 _RememberTonyC

But that does not happen. We do what we have to, the way we have to and give up lives in the effort. Who spearheaded precision weapons, smaller warheads and even concrete bombs to spare a neighborhood with parked artillery units? Took Falloujah room by room instead of massive artillery or bomb strikes? Kept warning the populace to leave knowing militants may escape as well?

What will remove ISIS military capacity? A complex ground war. What will assure something worthwhile in it’s place? Anything but hawks and warfighters. Maybe the old borders evaporate under the heat of sheer unsuitability. Maybe religious leaders can find a way to cohabit the region, maybe secular leaders.

What simply will not survive over the long haul is policies like what Iraqs President had of late. What ISIS fights for. What just might survive is regional shifts of governance and a realization that factions and fatwas for violence need not win the day.

42 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 5:55:21pm

You know what? It’s telling when certain people only concern troll over conflicts where there are primarily Arab & Indo-Iranian Muslims involved. When it’s other groups, especially Africans—Muslims or otherwise—no one seems to get overly concerned if they’re kidnapping, raping, hacking each other to death, etc.

43 CuriousLurker  Sep 2, 2014 6:19:10pm

re: #22 goddamnedfrank

All the swaggering sounds/looks like this to me:

New Zealand Haka vs Samoan Siva Tau

Youtube Video

44 wrenchwench  Sep 2, 2014 6:21:09pm

re: #43 CuriousLurker

All the swaggering sounds/looks like this to me:

New Zealand Haka vs Samoan Siva Tau

[Embedded content]

We need a little thigh-slapping emoji.

45 Varek Raith  Sep 2, 2014 9:47:38pm

re: #40 lostlakehiker

re: #38 _RememberTonyC

Feel free to sign up and fight them, chickenshits.

46 Ryan King  Sep 2, 2014 10:48:57pm

re: #17 _RememberTonyC

If civilian deaths prevent us from doing what we must to win this war, we have succumbed to the terrorists and their methods. Ultimately defeating the likes of ISIS, hezbollah, hamas, al qaeda, boko haram, al shabaab, and the rulers of iran is civilization’s only hope to survive and thrive. Beating these gangs and the mullahs down will ultimately SAVE many civilian lives and give the survivors a chance for a better life. And yes, that includes the Palestinians. About a month ago I posted on this board that the POTUS was going to have to “open a can of whoop ass” on someone and that I hoped he would choose wisely. Now we all know who his target should be and that is ISIS.

What an outpouring of unmitigated chest thumping cowboy bullshit that is. This is the fusion reaction that powers war.

You want peace? Kick everyone’s ass.

47 I Stand With Big Sodomy!  Sep 3, 2014 3:11:44am

I totally get your anger, remember tony c, I am trying to deal with my conflicting feelings over it. At the same time, going to full on war seems to never work over there. It always seems to make it worse.

48 CuriousLurker  Sep 4, 2014 8:27:38am

re: #13 nines09

I don’t know if you’re subscribed to this thread, but if you are you might be interested in this BBC article I just ran across as it speaks to financial as well as ideological support: Islamic State: Where does jihadist group get its support?

As with most things Mideast-related, it’s complicated.


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