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21 comments

1 1Peter G1  Sep 20, 2014 9:29:26am

More’s the pity if that war is being won. Ethnically based nationalism is a curse on humanity. Celebrate if you wish the coming Balkanization of Great Britain but it is a foolish dream. What is the greatest failing of Europe? It isn’t really a union of states and therefore lacks an appropriate method of wealth transfer from richer to poorer members. Does anybody think the US would be stronger if more power devolved to States? Surely they should be allowed to nullify federal laws they don’t like? No?

Now I had a ringside seat for the Quebec referendum where no also prevailed. Good thing too. The comments by the loser Jacques Parizeau about their victory being stolen by “ethnic” voters left little doubt as to what would have happened to those ethnic groups had the PQ prevailed. Pure laine my ass. Oddly enough the yes to separation side seemed to think Quebec’s vastly disproportionate share of marketing quotas as well as federal subsidies for the major industries there would continue post separation. Lord knows why.

Now me, if I were a Scot I would have asked the yes side some questions. Like maybe whether or not Scotland would be entitled to any further share of naval shipbuilding. Or whether the entire nuclear submarine fleet and their trident missiles would continue to be based in Scotland? Little things like major employers matter don’t they? Would they even have the necessary economic strength to accede to EU membership? Would they survive without it? You need a much better answer to questions like that than “don’t worry about it”

2 iceweasel  Sep 20, 2014 9:35:04am

You’re a moron, but I don’t have time to deal with you just now. :)

3 iceweasel  Sep 20, 2014 9:43:32am

re: #1 1Peter G1

More’s the pity if that war is being won. Ethnically based nationalism is a curse on humanity.

I will say, briefly, that there’s a big difference between Scottish nationalism and British nationalism, a distinction you fail to make.

Exclusive: Scottish nationalism and British nationalism aren’t the same
Billy Bragg

For me, the most frustrating aspect of the debate on Scottish independence has been the failure of the English left to recognise that there is more than one type of nationalism. People who can explain in minute detail the many forms of socialism on offer at any demo or conference seem incapable of differentiating when it comes to nationalists.

Confronted by someone recently who claimed to believe that there was no difference between the Scottish National party and the British National party, I can’t help wondering if this is wilful - like the Daily Mail’s insistence that anyone who wants to see a fairer society must be a Stalinist.

4 1Peter G1  Sep 20, 2014 9:55:53am

re: #3 iceweasel

Lemme guess? Scottish nationalism is the good type that would preserve civil service jobs in Scotland for good Scots. While expecting the three quarters of a million Scots living elsewhere in Britain to continue to enjoy the priveleges of being British. I know that’s how it works in Quebec. And not just in the civil service. It is illegal for non-residents of Quebec to work in construction there. Yet oddly they demand the right to work anywhere else in Canada. By the way I’m half French and fluently bilingual. Can you guess what the pure laine crowd of ethnic nationalists in Quebec told people like me? Concisely it was fuck you. Nationalist. by and large, are dying to punish local minorities. I have no use for people who believe in ethnic superiority.

5 iceweasel  Sep 20, 2014 10:12:41am

re: #4 1Peter G1

Lemme guess?

My turn to ‘guess’. I ‘guess’ you didn’t bother reading my post, or the link I provided.

Just kidding! I can tell you didn’t, so I don’t need to guess:

In Scotland, Wales and Ireland nationalism is the name given to the campaign for self-determination. James Connolly gave his life for the nationalist cause; John MacLean, perhaps the greatest leftwinger that Scotland has produced, was in favour of independence and campaigned for a Scottish parliament.

Both recognised that the British state was highly resistant to reform, and that the interests of working people were best served by breaking with the United Kingdom.

England’s dominant role has meant that it has never felt the urge to be free of the British state. As a result, the nationalism that has emerged there has been ethnic, seeking to unite the indigenous population against the perceived threat of outsiders. And for all of us in Europe, ethnic nationalism casts a long shadow.

And I still don’t have enough time to give you the slapping you deserve, so it will have to wait.

6 goddamnedfrank  Sep 20, 2014 10:32:30am
Now I had a ringside seat for the Quebec referendum where no also prevailed. Good thing too. The comments by the loser Jacques Parizeau about their victory being stolen by “ethnic” voters left little doubt as to what would have happened to those ethnic groups had the PQ prevailed.

Newsflash: Scotland isn’t Quebec.

“I don’t care where you have come from,” Sturgeon said to rousing applause. “If you choose to make Scotland your home and you do this country the privilege of making it your home, then you have as much say in the future of our country as anyone else.”

“You are welcome here now, this will be your home after independence just as it is today,” she added.

7 lostlakehiker  Sep 20, 2014 11:04:06am

No place is exactly any other place but there are similarities. Scotland, as a nation, would have faced difficulties that Quebec would not have. Quebec would have been safely pocketed, surrounded by Canada and the US. Scotland would have been an enormously attractive target for seduction, grooming, and eventual Finlandization. Its secession would have proved an incalculable boost to Putinism.

Storm-tossed little chips of nations are not that good an idea in a world in which malice, deceit, and ambition play the kind of role they do.

What’s more, Britain has a long record of providing tolerable governance. It has its faults, and they are many and some are grave, but that’s the human condition. For all its faults, it’s a better place than most. Why roll the dice?

8 1Peter G1  Sep 20, 2014 11:58:26am

re: #5 iceweasel

More likely can’t. I have heard the Masters In Our Own House argument. When you are in the majority you can kick the minority’s asses is what that amounts to. It’s the same nativist bullshit everywhere. What you don’t want people to ask is what exactly do the English want as a people that is different from what the Scots want? They don’t want jobs, or social justice or education for their kids? Or health care? Or anything else you might care to name? What is it that makes your aspirations more noble? Some genetic superiority perhaps?

9 1Peter G1  Sep 20, 2014 12:08:12pm

re: #7 lostlakehiker

Exactly so. As part of the greater nation Scots have mobility and opportunity anywhere in GB. Which is why about a sixth of them live there. Put up a border and lose that. Aye Pod and ice weasel are currently putting up a campaign to show how the old foggie No voters are hurting their feelings. How do they expect the rest of Britain will react to their shiny new border? I wonder why those evil English types let so many Scots live and work there.

10 William Burns  Sep 20, 2014 12:22:09pm

Usually, this “our ideas are awesome, and the fact that we just suffered a crushing defeat [odd definition of a whisker, btw] doesn’t mean they have to be changed in the slightest” strategy is unsuccessful, but maybe Scottish nationalism will be the exception.

11 1Peter G1  Sep 20, 2014 12:38:43pm

re: #6 goddamnedfrank

Good news indeed. And you’re going to have an oil fueled socialist paradise to which all are welcome? Awesome. But if you’re going to follow that policy and join the EU then I’d start learning Greek or maybe Spanish if I were you. Not terribly green mind you but there it is. By the way who did the Green party support? Yes wasn’t it? That’s not awfully green is it?

12 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 20, 2014 12:42:39pm

LOL! Peter ranting about an oil fueled socialist paradise when he lives in CANADA.
Yeah, Peter, go learn Greek or Spanish because Canada is so close to joining the EU.

What. An. EEjit…

13 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 20, 2014 12:45:34pm

Canada, BTW, the home of the infamous tarsands that Canada wants to Keystone pipeline through the USA duty-free coming in and going out and the USA gets no benefits except for the privilege of cleaning up all the fucking pipeline leaks and explosions…

14 goddamnedfrank  Sep 20, 2014 1:17:53pm

re: #7 lostlakehiker

Quebec would have been safely pocketed, surrounded by Canada and the US. Scotland would have been an enormously attractive target for seduction, grooming, and eventual Finlandization.

Finlandization means to be cowed politically by an enormously powerful neighbor. How is it you think an independent Quebec would have been “safe” to express itself freely when wedged between two powerful foreign language speaking allied nations, one a super-power, but Scotland would be somehow dominated by some unspecified nefarious foreign government? Who could possibly Finlandize Scotland other than the UK?

Norway?

Are you fucking high, like right now?

15 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sep 20, 2014 1:51:12pm

re: #14 goddamnedfrank

Finlandization means to be cowed politically by an enormously powerful neighbor. How is it you think Quebec would be “safe” to express itself freely when wedged between two powerful foreign language speaking allied nations, one a super-power, but Scotland would be somehow dominated by some unspecified nefarious foreign government? Who could possibly Finlandize Scotland other than the UK?

Norway?

Are you fucking high, like right now?

He’s just fucking stupid.

16 Dark_Falcon  Sep 20, 2014 2:28:09pm

re: #15 Backwoods_Sleuth

He’s just fucking stupid.

LLH is wrong sometimes, but he’s not stupid or an asshole. 1PeterG1, on the other hand, has shown himself to be an asshole and probably stupid as well.

17 iceweasel  Sep 20, 2014 2:39:30pm

I love this thread.

18 iceweasel  Sep 20, 2014 2:42:53pm

re: #8 1Peter G1

What is it that makes your aspirations more noble? Some genetic superiority perhaps?

Oh troll, bang your head harder!

19 goddamnedfrank  Sep 20, 2014 2:52:42pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

LLH is wrong sometimes, but he’s not stupid or an asshole.

Yeah, no, he totally is. He and NHD are our resident intellectually gutshot cock-necked old guard, standing tall for quality retardation wherever and whenever possible.

20 iceweasel  Sep 20, 2014 3:02:04pm

re: #19 goddamnedfrank

You, sir, as I have had prior occasion to remark, are aptly named.

21 socrets  Sep 20, 2014 7:39:31pm

re: #18 iceweasel

Perhaps you need some troll away?


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