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13 comments

1 iossarian  Sep 26, 2014 2:04:48pm

Score one for the good guys with guns!

2014 score so far, bad guys vs. good guys:

1,561 - 1

Keep plugging away, good guys.

2 Rightwingconspirator  Sep 26, 2014 2:09:08pm

re: #1 iossarian

Hey, defensive shoots happen tens of thousands of times a year, VPC statistic. (60000+) So your number only off by three orders of magnitude or so. I just don’t understand why an incident can’t be accepted at face value, by the right or some on the left apparently.

3 cinesimon  Sep 26, 2014 2:40:03pm

Oh FFS. This kind of cherry-picking of single anecdotal incidents in service of a pet cause is outright dishonesty. The fact is, you’re far more likely to be killed if you present a gun during an attack or robbery. That said, you’re perfectly within your rights to have a gun for self defense, if you wish to roll the dice in the highly unlikely event you’re in a position to have to defend yourself. Whatever. Have at it. Enjoy your penis extension.
But nah - let’s not have an honest conversation. Let’s pretend that the above kind of ‘argument’ needs to be pressed home, because Americans are in danger of losing their 2nd amendment rights.

Ugh.

Has the OP ever bothered to look at the other side of this argument? Where are the postings of all those people shot with their own guns by robbers, or shot by robbers because the victim presented a gun?
Oh that’s right - that would be in service of honest debate.
Can’t have that. This is America. Guns are the national religion. The national fetish cannot be debated honestly.

4 Rightwingconspirator  Sep 26, 2014 2:53:21pm

re: #3 cinesimon

When it’s a tragedy, few hesitate to point out that single incident as an example of how things go wrong. Can you please explain how then it’s dishonest to take a look at where lives were saved? How many people has this COO shot by accident? Shot any family members? Himself? Nope.

Is a knife attack a triumph for gun control? No not any more than a defensive use is a triumph for the right to have a defensive weapon. It’s just an example of how reality defies sloganeering.

Is your point that this man was more likely to be killed because he presented his weapon? Tell ya what if a real killer comes calling I want a weapon. Defenseless in the face of a truly violent attack is just a way to die prematurely without a struggle or a fair chance to live. Or a chance to stop the killer.

5 Jolo5309  Sep 26, 2014 3:32:23pm

I see it as a triumph of the police, after all, Vaughn is a reserve police officer, not just some random guy with a gun.

6 wrenchwench  Sep 26, 2014 3:35:58pm
Authorities said Mark Vaughan, CFO of the company and a reserve Oklahoma County deputy, shot Nolen several times with a rifle.

Several times with a rifle? I guess after a guy beheads someone, nothing can be considered excessive. Do we know whether the second victim was hit?

7 goddamnedfrank  Sep 26, 2014 3:42:09pm

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

Hey, defensive shoots happen tens of thousands of times a year, VPC statistic. (60000+)

Nope. Here’s the study by VPC.

According to the NCVS, looking at the total number of self-protective behaviors undertaken by victims of attempted or completed property crime for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, in only 0.1 percent of these instances had the intended victim in resistance to a criminal “threatened or attacked with a firearm.”12 As detailed in the table on the previous page, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the NCVS estimates that there were 84,495,500 victims of attempted or completed property crime. During this same five-year period, only 103,000 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used, whether it was fired or not, or whether the use of a gun would even be a legal response to the property crime. And as before, the number may also include off-duty law enforcement officers. In comparison, new data from the Department of Justice shows that an average of 232,400 guns were stolen each year from U.S. households from 2005 to 2010.13

So they don’t actually track “defensive shoots” per se, only resistance involving firearms. Also 103000 / 5 = 20600, not 60000+. Finally, the VPC data shows that ten times as many guns are stolen each year from homes, putting whatever statistical benefit one might infer from such self defense incidents into a rather dubious context.

8 goddamnedfrank  Sep 26, 2014 3:46:16pm

re: #7 goddamnedfrank

There’s obviously some wiggle room in that VPC tracked incidents involving “property crime” which is far more common than purely violent attacks like rape or murder. But even if we’re very generous and double the VPC numbers it still doesn’t get anywhere near the claim, or support a cost / benefit contention. The fact is that all those stolen guns end up in places they shouldn’t, and many of them end up adding to the other side of the equations.

9 Rightwingconspirator  Sep 26, 2014 6:03:59pm

re: #8 goddamnedfrank

And that’s why it’s called the right to self defense, from common law going way back. To the extent we deny the innocent the tools of defense we deny the right. That has to be considered among all the statistics you want to cite.

10 Rightwingconspirator  Sep 26, 2014 6:22:31pm

re: #8 goddamnedfrank

Mother jones was fine with the 60,000+ number.
motherjones.com

And sorry BTW it had been a while-the 60,000+ number comes from Department of Justice’s National Crime Victimization Survey

I think it’s a reasonable number to accept for discussion. Again not millions as Lott claims but far and away too many to dismiss. .

11 goddamnedfrank  Sep 26, 2014 6:55:55pm

VPC’s conclusion:

“The idea that firearms are frequently used in self-defense is the primary argument that the gun lobby and firearms industry use to expand the carrying of firearms into an ever-increasing number of public spaces and even to prevent the regulation of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines. Yet this argument is hollow and the assertions false. When analyzing the most reliable data available, what is most striking is that in a nation of more than 300 million guns, how rarely firearms are used in self-defense.”

At the end of the day the number of firearms stolen each year still dwarfs the number used in defensive actions.

12 Charles Johnson  Sep 26, 2014 7:22:24pm

The right wing blogosphere is turning this story into an incredible firestorm of bigotry against Muslims tonight. Combined with gloating over the “good guy with a gun” angle.

13 Rightwingconspirator  Sep 26, 2014 9:25:03pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

The right wing blogosphere is turning this story into an incredible firestorm of bigotry against Muslims tonight. Combined with gloating over the “good guy with a gun” angle.

Those people can distort and exploit just about anything. I ignore them and draw my own conclusions irrespective of the pundits, right or left.

Let’s reflect a second-What is gun control supposed to accomplish? Keep the gun out of the killers hands. Well however it happened this time we got what we want-The killer did not have a gun, did have a bloodied deadly weapon and had to be stopped. And yet a man with a gun was able to stop him.

That’s what gun control is supposed to enable. Strong enough controls the criminals can’t hardly get them, and still pass the legal test of respecting our defensive rights.


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