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1 Charles Johnson  Oct 9, 2014 8:07:39pm

I agree with this advertisement, and I totally disagree that Pat Quinn is “lying.”

2 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 8:13:21pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

I agree with this advertisement, and I totally disagree that Pat Quinn is “lying.”

How can you? It’s clearly wrong on the facts, and it accused Rauner of seeking to allow the sale of weapons whose sale in Illinois he does not support.

How can such an ad not be called dishonest?

3 goddamnedfrank  Oct 9, 2014 8:22:44pm

Pretty fuckin’ pedantic Dark.

4 teleskiguy  Oct 9, 2014 8:24:36pm

First of all, you’re arguing semantics, it’s frivolous to your average voter. Second, you seem to be against this video because Pat Quinn wants more sensible gun control, and I know you think of that as an affront to liberty and freedom - which to me is just another gun-fucker argument to persuade folks that high capacity magazines and unfettered access to long rifles that fire 7.62X39 bullets as fast as one can pull the trigger is a good thing for the United States.

No. Just, no.

5 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 8:29:47pm

re: #4 teleskiguy

It’s not semantics: The capabilities of the different classes of guns in question are significantly different, and Federal law treats them very differently as well.

Moreover, I did not then and do not know see Pat Quinn’s gun ban proposal as “sensible”. To me its a proposal to go after guns that look scary while not going after the guns that are actually being used to commit murder. As such, I see his proposed bill as horseshit.

6 goddamnedfrank  Oct 9, 2014 8:31:54pm

Against my better judgement I’m going to meet you halfway, at the risk of legitimizing this absurd attack. If we eliminate the distinction between bullets and buckshot a semi auto Saiga 12 can fill a room with 540 projectiles inside of five seconds. With fast mag changes that means something like 1620 holes can be plowed through various living, formerly living and inanimate objects within the allotted time frame.

7 teleskiguy  Oct 9, 2014 8:32:49pm

Dark_Falcon, should Americans have unfettered access to high capacity magazines and long rifles with pistol grips that can fire big bullets rapidly? Should there be any restrictions? Should there be background checks? Should the serial numbers of these guns be traced to the buyers of these guns?

James Holmes worked within the law and look what he did.

8 bratwurst  Oct 9, 2014 8:37:32pm

Don’t worry…Rauner is not going to lose because of guns. He is going to lose because he obstinately refused to learn ANYTHING from Mitt Romney’s miserable failure of a campaign.

He saw that large number of Americans did not find it suitable for a major political candidate to funnel wealth to Cayman Island, yet he did NOTHING to get his own millions out of there. Rauner, like Romeny before him, claims that these “investments” have nothing to do with avoiding taxes. The fact is that everyone with half a brain knows there is no reason to invest in the Caribbean except to lower your US tax burden.

It might not be illegal, but it makes one look like a dickhead.

9 ausador  Oct 9, 2014 8:38:04pm

I’ll admit that it is not possible to fire 350 rounds with a semi-auto rifle in 30 seconds, it is almost impossible even with a fully automatic rifle and 100 round magazines.

However that does not mean that I agree that ARs, AKs, or their brethren are not primarily intended to kill humans. There are many better and cheaper hunting or target rifles out there if that is what you want.

10 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 8:38:16pm

re: #6 goddamnedfrank

The think is that the ad uses the word “bullets’ and it depicts rifle rounds and shell casings.

As an admittedly pedantic reply, it should noted that import of the Saiga 12 has been banned as part of the sanctions against Kalashnikov Concern. For what its worth, I approve of the sanctioning of that firm.

11 Black d20  Oct 9, 2014 8:38:16pm

I always wondered what in the hell you’re hunting that requires a semi-automatic to begin with. Isn’t a bolt-action kind of the gold standard?

12 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 8:40:06pm

re: #9 ausador

I’ll admit that it is not possible to fire 350 rounds with a semi-auto rifle in 30 seconds, it is almost impossible even with a fully automatic rifle and 100 round magazines.

However that does not mean that I agree that ARs, AKs, or their brethren are not primarily intended to kill humans. There are many better and cheaper hunting or target rifles out there if that is what you want.

The ad says that’s the ‘only’ purpose for such rifles and shotguns, and that’s just not true. Whether other weapons are better and cheaper is beside the point.

13 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 8:41:39pm

re: #7 teleskiguy

I need to ask you to define “unfettered” for purposes of this conversation, so that I may properly reply.

14 teleskiguy  Oct 9, 2014 8:46:12pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

I need to ask you to define “unfettered” for purposes of this conversation, so that I may properly reply.

“Should there be any restrictions? Should there be background checks?”

This isn’t enough?!

OK. Unfettered, in my terms! If you’re 18 you can buy any gun that isn’t fully automatic, no ID, no background check, like gun shows except at every gun purveyor. Is that better?

smdh

15 goddamnedfrank  Oct 9, 2014 8:47:44pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

The think is that the ad uses the word “bullets’ and it depicts rifle rounds and shell casings.

So the hell what? The distinction is meaningless on the receiving end, a hit to a vital area is still going to kill, and buckshot stands a much greater chance of hitting multiple vital areas.

As an admittedly pedantic reply, it should noted that import of the Saiga 12 has been banned as part of the sanctions against Kalashnikov Concern. For what its worth, I approve of the sanctioning of that firm.

Yep, that definitely was a pedantic reply, not only are there still plenty of Saigas on the market, there are other currently importable alternatives, MKA 1919 with 18 round box mag.

Youtube Video

DId you see how fast he emptied that? Imagine each of those trigger pulls is a number 4 buckshot round, dumping out 27 projectiles. You really have to do some yoga stretches to call that ad a lie.

16 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 8:50:22pm

re: #14 teleskiguy

“Should there be any restrictions? Should there be background checks?”

This isn’t enough?!

OK. Unfettered, in my terms! If you’re 18 you can buy any gun that isn’t fully automatic, no ID, no background check, like gun shows except at every gun purveyor. Is that better?

smdh

There should be background checks, and those categories of people currently prohibited from owning firearms should continue to be prohibited from doing so.

I would make a modest addition to the list of banned categories for those convicted of misdemeanors that were committed in the course of stalking someone. Those proven to be obsessive stalkers should be barred from owning guns.

17 Charles Johnson  Oct 9, 2014 8:51:01pm

It’s time people stood up and said NO to the gun lobby and their insane rationalizations. How many hundreds of thousands of men, women and children have to die before we say “Enough!”

We’re all freaking out about the Ebola virus when we have a much more dangerous and deadly virus killing people in this country every single day - the destructive right wing infatuation with guns.

18 goddamnedfrank  Oct 9, 2014 8:53:10pm

re: #15 goddamnedfrank

Edited: Number 4 buckshot contains 27 pellets per shell in standard 2.75” loads.

19 jaunte  Oct 9, 2014 8:53:33pm
the gun lobby

And it is an industry lobby, that has duped a large segment of the population into fears that their Constitutional rights are under threat by reasonable regulation.

20 teleskiguy  Oct 9, 2014 8:55:10pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

It’s time people stood up and said NO to the gun lobby and their insane rationalizations. How many hundreds of thousands of men, women and children have to die before we say “Enough!”

We’re all freaking out about the Ebola virus when we have a much more dangerous and deadly virus killing people in this country every single day - the destructive right wing infatuation with guns.

Thank you Mr. Blogowner!

21 Charles Johnson  Oct 9, 2014 8:57:41pm

re: #19 jaunte

And it is an industry lobby, that has duped a large segment of the population into fears that their Constitutional rights are under threat by reasonable regulation.

It’s a lobby that makes obscene profits by marketing tools of murder and mayhem.

22 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 8:58:08pm

re: #19 jaunte

And it is an industry lobby, that has duped a large segment of the population into fears that their Constitutional rights are under threat by reasonable regulation.

And if that was the argument the ad put forward, I would not have reacted as I did. But how can someone trust a group or politician to be reasonable if he or she knows their ads to be dishonest?

23 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 9:00:24pm

Steel PH, you are an asshole. Teleskiguy asked me a direct question to which I gave a direct and non-inflammatory answer, for which you downdinged me.

GFYS

24 lostlakehiker  Oct 9, 2014 9:01:45pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

I agree with this advertisement, and I totally disagree that Pat Quinn is “lying.”

The ad is built around a statement that is false, material, designed to get the listener to believe it, and known by the person advancing the statement to be false.

That’s the very definition of “lie”.

You might agree with the agenda behind the ad, but you cannot seriously be saying that you really think a civilian, currently legal, weapon can get off 350 rounds in 30 seconds.

To agree with the claims in the ad, you’d have to swallow that.

25 SteelPH  Oct 9, 2014 9:02:33pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

You’re really not helping your case. I’m fucking sick of every god damned excuse in the book to guard these killing machines you love so much. Get over it.

26 teleskiguy  Oct 9, 2014 9:02:57pm

The 2nd Amendment is antiquated. The Founders weren’t dealing with rapid-fire high caliber guns. The meaning has been completely distorted by gun-fuckers. I have to laugh when I see a gun fucker tweet out that his/her right to bear arms is essential in case the government gets out of hand. Oh, so you’re gonna go against the government with small arms when they have tanks, flame-throwers, bombs…

The gun lobby and gun companies have been making a lot of money off of this stupid meme, and it engenders fear of the other, resentment, and gun violence that vastly exceeds any other developed country by far.

*I am a gun owner, for strictly practical non-human-killing purposes.

27 SteelPH  Oct 9, 2014 9:03:29pm

Last I checked, guns are not more important than people.

28 jaunte  Oct 9, 2014 9:04:13pm

A fan of the “Tac-Con 3MR trigger system” comments:

“…It does take a little practice to master, however I was able to pick up a sample rifle and immediately knock out very quick 2 and 3 round bursts. If I had to guess the cyclic rate, I would way it was in the neighborhood of 500-600 rounds per minute (M60 speed). You can go faster or slower depending on your level of experience.
….
What I can say so far is the system worked VERY well for me on the range today. I was able to fire 4 magazines through two different demo rifles and by the end of my time on the range I was running the guns at probably 700+ rounds per minute.”

29 goddamnedfrank  Oct 9, 2014 9:07:39pm

Also, if anything my estimates are lowball. MKA 1919 will chamber 3” magnum shells, that’s 41 No. 4 Buck pellets per trigger pull. So, that’s:

738 pellets of No. 4 Buck per magazine, or 270 pellets of Double-Ought. If that video above is any guide (5 seconds between first and last trigger pull) there is easily enough time for a determined, trained shooter to fire one full mag, change and empty another full mag, change again and empty a third magazine inside of 30 seconds. Making for a reasonable upper estimate of 2214 lethal projectiles delivered downrange.

30 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 9:07:45pm

re: #24 lostlakehiker

Thank You, LLH.

31 SteelPH  Oct 9, 2014 9:08:00pm

Glorified death sticks.

32 SteelPH  Oct 9, 2014 9:10:24pm

Proving my point I see.

33 Black d20  Oct 9, 2014 9:12:56pm

re: #28 jaunte

And the thing that gets me about this is… what’s the purpose for a weapon like this? It is seriously a hunting weapon? (If so, are you hunting monsters like cape buffalo or hippos?)

I try to take that kind of enthusiasm and wrap my head around why a person would own a weapon with that kind of capability. Maybe it’s compensation, or fear of some nebulous threat, or just the enjoyment of knowing you command something that is ultimately built for quickly-dealt death. Some combination? Or something else?

34 Charles Johnson  Oct 9, 2014 9:14:12pm

re: #29 goddamnedfrank

A full-auto M16 with a high capacity clip absolutely is capable of firing 350 rounds in 30 seconds. It may be at the upper end of a full-auto assault rifle’s capability, but it is NOT a lie.

But more importantly, it’s pedantic in the extreme to focus on nit-picking the number of bullets such a rifle can fire per minute. The point is that it can deal out death in large quantities, in a very short amount of time. And they DO THIS, every single day in this country.

35 teleskiguy  Oct 9, 2014 9:15:05pm

This is my last comment in this thread.

Dark_Falcon wanted to point out that a politician running for office wasn’t being truthful about firing rates of guns on TV, and he’s FUCKING PISSED AND SHIT AND THIS IS BULLSHIT!

Troll move, dude. And now I think less of you. And that’s too bad. I don’t want you to go anywhere, I think you’re a valuable contributor.

Because of this shit.

36 Varek Raith  Oct 9, 2014 9:17:33pm
37 SteelPH  Oct 9, 2014 9:18:01pm

But seriously, people get killed by these things every day. At what point do you say “Stop!”? Or are they simply sacrifices that need to be made to protect us from the non-existent threat of tyranny?

These are peoples’ lives that are being taken, not just some statistics. How can anybody look at all these deaths and simply shrug? The tone-deaf lack of empathy is astounding.

But I’m the asshole. Okay.

38 Varek Raith  Oct 9, 2014 9:19:35pm

So, this trigger system makes it near full auto.
All legally.
After watching some vids of that in action, I’m not so sure this ad was a lie.

39 Charles Johnson  Oct 9, 2014 9:20:30pm

If Pat Quinn’s ad is off by 100 rounds per 30 seconds, how in the hell does that change his point?

40 Charles Johnson  Oct 9, 2014 9:21:18pm

re: #38 Varek Raith

So, this trigger system makes it near full auto.
All legally.
After watching some vids of that in action, I’m not so sure this ad was a lie.

Exactly. It’s NOT a lie.

41 goddamnedfrank  Oct 9, 2014 9:22:48pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

[Embedded content]

Video

That trigger is sketchy as all hell.

42 The Ghost of a Flea (R)  Oct 9, 2014 9:23:09pm

This:

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

And if that was the argument the ad put forward, I would not have reacted as I did. But how can someone trust a group or politician to be reasonable if he or she knows their ads to be dishonest.?

plus this:

Regardless of what you think of guns or Republicans, dishonest ads like this one poison American politics. Pat Quinn should be ashamed of the lies told on his behalf.

You routinely justify insane shit said by Republicans, including lies, as campaign strategy. A month ago, you were justifying capitulating to the Religious Right—the I Don’t Care About Your Rights, Fucking Choke On My Protestantism, Religious RIght—because it would thwart “Obama’s agenda.”

I don’t think you’re a bad person, but you don’t get to make above statements and not be called full of shit. Like, you have a GIANT blind spot wherein all your party’s bad behavior isn’t part of a pattern.

I am really, really fucking tired of conservatives telling me to be honest while they rain slander and shit down on me and mine. I am subsequently tired of having someone auxiliary to people flinging shit at me impose on my better nature. You have a good heart and I suspect a decent moral compass. Tonight, though, you are on my last nerve, because this whole not seeing thing is teeth-grindingly repetitive and, frankly, a bit sad. It’s Voltaire’s Candide spokesmodelling for Sauron.

This is not a merry cricket match, Dark. Cream tea and scones will not be served. Republicans talk about how I’m less of a person and less of a citizen. I have dealt with 14 years of being called a terrorist sympathizer and living in fear for every person in my life who ain’t lighter than a paper bag. I have spent my entire life afraid that the people who think I’m not American because I don’t love Jesus in exactly the right way will get to pass the laws the talk openly, happily about passing. Every single day, some Republican gets on TV and says the people I love don’t really matter…and that it should be the law that they don’t matter. You belong to a party who, from on high, proclaims that so, so many people don’t deserve to vote and have rights…and some don’t deserve to live. Am I not supposed to take this seriously?

And I love the attempts at mollifying this situation: “Trust me, we’re not actually going to fuck you to death, even though we makes speeches, film documentaries, and hold conventions about fucking you to death—oh and also fucking you to death is part of our party platform, the predominant theme in our pundit’s works, and a keystone of our understanding of the teachings of Christ.”

You’re not terrifying, Dark, but you are terrifying-adjacent.

43 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 9:32:44pm

re: #34 Charles Johnson

A full-auto M16 with a high capacity clip absolutely is capable of firing 350 rounds in 30 seconds. It may be at the upper end of a full-auto assault rifle’s capability, but it is NOT a lie.

No, that part is not a lie. But the guns Bruce Rauner opposed banning are semi-automatic weapons.

Fully-automatic weapons are not legal for civilian ownership in Illinois, and Bruce Rauner has not proposed making them legal. That is what I am calling a lie: The ad conflates full-auto assault rifles with semi-auto-only replicas of same, and proceeds to accuse Rauner of favoring full-auto weapons. That is is clearly untruthful.

44 jaunte  Oct 9, 2014 9:35:53pm

“…Is there really a belt-fed full auto that requires no 6-month wait and a tax stamp? Well, not really, but it is hard to tell the difference watching this video. In this video we test the Valkyrie Armament BSR-MOD1 with a SlideFire stock. The outcome is something most people would swear is a real machine gun. You be the judge.”
Youtube Video

45 klys  Oct 9, 2014 9:37:20pm

re: #42 The Ghost of a Flea

I wish that this comment would fall on ears that are willing to listen, because I know exactly where your frustration is coming from and have said much the same thing to be met with silence.

46 goddamnedfrank  Oct 9, 2014 9:37:42pm

47 Dark_Falcon  Oct 9, 2014 9:40:11pm

re: #44 jaunte

I admit I did not deal with belt-feed weapons because the ads refers to ‘clips’ AKA magazines. Even people who know very little about guns tend to know that ammo belts are not ‘clips’.

Pedantic? A little, but in this case I think the difference is relevant.

And with that, Good Night.

48 sagehen  Oct 9, 2014 10:42:35pm

re: #26 teleskiguy

The 2nd Amendment is antiquated. The Founders weren’t dealing with rapid-fire high caliber guns. The meaning has been completely distorted by gun-fuckers. I have to laugh when I see a gun fucker tweet out that his/her right to bear arms is essential in case the government gets out of hand. Oh, so you’re gonna go against the government with small arms when they have tanks, flame-throwers, bombs…

The gun lobby and gun companies have been making a lot of money off of this stupid meme, and it engenders fear of the other, resentment, and gun violence that vastly exceeds any other developed country by far.

*I am a gun owner, for strictly practical non-human-killing purposes.

The 2nd Amendment was written for a nation that intended not to have standing armies, that hadn’t yet invented police departments. A nation that wanted people to be able to protect themselves from threats that the government wouldn’t even know about until too late — bears, indians, Canadians….

49 FemNaziBitch  Oct 10, 2014 6:31:40am

I’VE said it before and I’ll say it again, if the gun lobby were REALLY concerned about self-defense, I’d have a phaser.

But, Iike the auto industry and the fossil fuel industry, they simply refuse to devote their R & D resources to the next level of product simply because that product would upset their myths and fantasies.

We simply wouldn’t want a woman to be able to legally defend herself from her abuser, would we?

50 EPR-radar  Oct 10, 2014 10:19:29am

Not so incidentally, if/when the NRA et al. decide that they want to remove current federal laws relating to fully automatic weapons (which is inevitable, IMO), then GOP tools will happily go along.

51 EPR-radar  Oct 10, 2014 12:10:01pm

Since I have no interest in hyper-technical parsing of terminology while (implicitly) accepting NRA/gun-fucker premises, let’s do something different.

Below I will briefly set forth my views on the nature of the GOP (post civil-rights realignment). One would expect a committed GOPer to be able to come up with a competing point of view. If that happens, we can see which view seems closer to reality.

In my opinion, the present day GOP is the worst concentration of partisan evil in the US since the fatal embrace of slavery by Democrats in the 1800s. The root cause of this is the decision by the GOP to affirmatively go after the votes of disgruntled racists after passage of the civil rights bills of the 1960s. Since then, the GOP has had a significant base of voters that will vote GOP despite the lack of any GOP policies or positions that would actually benefit them. Lip service and ginning up hate against various “others” was all that was needed.

Thus the GOP as a political party is presently the single largest institutional amplifier of many negative aspects of US society, including racism, misogyny, homophobia, and anti-Muslim bigotry, and has been engaged in this evil enterprise for decades. Occasional acts by individual GOPers (e.g., GWB trying to defuse anti-Muslim bigotry just after 9/11) do not alter the general pattern and practice of the GOP.

The GOP pushes for numerous things that tend to make Americans more stupid and evil. Examples include creationism, mindless wars, hating on the poor, the war on women, embrace of ‘Family values’ hate groups, voter suppression, and gun nut extremism.

The GOP reaction to the election and re-election of Barack Obama as POTUS has made all of the above impossible to deny.

52 Dark_Falcon  Oct 11, 2014 7:12:33am

re: #49 FemNaziBitch

I’VE said it before and I’ll say it again, if the gun lobby were REALLY concerned about self-defense, I’d have a phaser.

But, Iike the auto industry and the fossil fuel industry, they simply refuse to devote their R & D resources to the next level of product simply because that product would upset their myths and fantasies.

We simply wouldn’t want a woman to be able to legally defend herself from her abuser, would we?

Honestly, that’s not the reason, GGT. The basic problem is that a handgun capable of disintegrating people (as phasers are on Star Trek) would be a dramatic increase in firepower for terrorists, as it would be impossible to keep such small but powerful weapons out of terrorist hands indefinitely.

That last line you posted is seriously in error, though. The firearms industry has many products well suited to use by a lady for self-defense and there are classes in the Chicago metro area covering that topic.

53 CuriousLurker  Oct 11, 2014 12:51:31pm

I’ll just leave this here:

10/11/2014 7:39:42 am PDT

Well, i for one am glad to see Wendy Davis running a nasty ad like that, because as the article points out, it has given Scott Brown and other Republicans a club with which to throttle those Democrats who have most strongly supported her. Hopefully, her ad helps give Republicans momentum with which to defeat other Democratic hopefuls.

littlegreenfootballs.com

54 TedStriker  Oct 11, 2014 1:45:37pm

re: #27 SteelPH

Last I checked, guns are not more important than people.

In RWNJ Bizarro World, guns are more important than people; one does not have to look any further than RWNJ gunfuckers’ responses to pretty much every mass shooting in the past twenty years (or Dark’s comments in this thread and others) to see that.


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