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1 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 8:55:02am

And why was he untreated? Because his mother refused to allow it. What are we supposed to do about that, in a country that allows parents to kill their children by praying to some magical sky being instead of using medicine?

2 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 9:02:14am

re: #1 Skip Intro

Geez. Overstate much?

3 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 9:06:56am

Where as a society we draw the line of when the government can or can not get a warrant and take your child away for treatment against your will is certainly an important part of this discussion. I can’t speak for other states but California certainly has laws that allow deliberate withholding of medical treatment as an abuse. An actionable abuse. I’m sure these laws are far from perfect (links avail.) but we have them.

4 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 9:12:59am

re: #2 Indy GOP Refugee

Geez. Overstate much?

No. My comment is absolutely true. Sorry you have a problem with that.

5 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 9:14:53am

re: #4 Skip Intro
Well that’s a doozy in your #1.

6 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 9:19:40am

re: #4 Skip Intro

Perhaps you could propose the solution you would like to see? Something that fits in our legal framework.

7 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 9:21:17am

re: #5 Indy GOP Refugee

Well that’s a doozy in your #1.

Really? Someone here recently made a page or a post about all of the “faith healing” parents who ended up killing their children and faced no charges because of “religious freedom”.

Go look it up.

8 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 9:21:44am

re: #6 Indy GOP Refugee

Perhaps you could propose the solution you would like to see? Something that fits in our legal framework.

There is no solution for insanity.

9 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 9:33:29am

re: #8 Skip Intro

There is no solution for insanity.

That kinda undermines your first post.

re: #7 Skip Intro

Really? Someone here recently made a page or a post about all of the “faith healing” parents who ended up killing their children and faced no charges because of “religious freedom”.

Go look it up.

I did a quick Google, First thing right off the top is parents going to jail for it. I don’t deny these deaths occur. I see that indeed, you both overstate the situation and take yet another broad brush cheap shot insult at those of any faith in god at all. The ugly face of what should be a more approachable atheism. For a conversation less burdened with rancor.

10 Romantic Heretic  Nov 22, 2014 9:43:05am

Speaking as someone who is mentally ill, sorry, but no.

Being able to force treatment on someone who is mentally ill is a definite government overreach. It criminalizes illness, and as was shown in the Soviet Union can be used as a tool to crush dissent.

The fix to gun violence in America is to change America’s attitude towards firearms and towards violence.

Firearms, as I’ve said before, have a literal holy status among many Americans. Possessing them, using them, confirms the person’s faith in America.

Violence is not a tool of last resort to many Americans as well. Due to the common interpretation of American history violence was how it was born (The American Revolution, The Civil War, WWII), violence was how it succeeded (Wild West, The Gilded Age, Prohibition). The overlap between these two groups is very large.

Until these attitudes change nothing else will change.

This would also help with the treatment of mental illness. Amongst the believers there is no such a thing as mental illness. There is only mental weakness. Weak people are regarded with contempt and so aren’t deserving of help. I suspect that’s why so many people buy firearms. They know they have a problem but instead of going to a doctor they buy a firearm instead because a firearm makes them ‘strong’.

Then, in extreme cases like Lanza, they have to use those firearms because they need final proof of their strength. It’s an extreme form of bullying. “I’ll prove I’m strong by using my power to make everyone else dead!”

re: #8 Skip Intro

There is no solution for insanity.

True. But like diabetes it can be treated by environment and drugs.

Also like cancer, another incurable disease, you live every moment of your life afraid it will return…and it will kill you this time.

11 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 9:46:54am

re: #9 Indy GOP Refugee

You need to brush up on your searching skills. It depends on the state. In Idaho,

Faith-healing parents believe prayer is the only acceptable treatment in matters of health, even if it means letting their children die. In Idaho, they’re immune from prosecution, and the body count is rising

Just across the state line in Idaho, however, there are no such deterrents. During the same period of time, at least 12 children have died at the hands of faith-healing parents in the state, yet not a single charge has been filed. In Idaho, authorities do not investigate or prosecute faith-healing deaths, which occur largely without scrutiny from the public or media. Of the dozen documented cases in the last three years—and there are likely many more that have gone unreported—all were members of the Followers of Christ, a faith-healing group with a doctrine nearly identical to the Church of the First Born. The Followers are also active in Oregon, where they gained notoriety in the 1990s after a series of high-profile child deaths.

vocativ.com

12 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 9:49:40am

re: #10 Romantic Heretic

The insanity I was thinking of is the one that allows anyone to own as many weapons as they can afford, no matter what, and in this country there’s absolutely nothing that can be done about it.

13 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 10:01:40am

re: #12 Skip Intro
Idaho stands out as an exception. Not unique but certainly uncommon. You called out the whole country on it. That is a textbook overstatement. Far from “absolutely true” apart from as a persons opinion.

And again you overstate, “anyone” can not have guns. And gun control laws abound at the Federal and State and even City level. We don’t rely on the Federal government alone for laws.

14 KerFuFFler  Nov 22, 2014 10:12:26am

re: #10 Romantic Heretic

Being able to force treatment on someone who is mentally ill is a definite government overreach. It criminalizes illness…

But what happens when the mentally ill person is so far gone around the bend that they are in no position to make responsible personal healthcare decisions? Sure, there need to be safeguards protecting people with mild disorders from governmental intrusion, but at this point it has become too difficult to step in when someone clearly needs help.

The standard of someone having to pose a threat to one’s self or others before treatment is mandated lets too many people through the cracks. While that policy on the surface seems to be about protecting the rights of the mentally ill, I suspect that public unwillingness to pay for the care of mentally ill people is what it really comes down to.

15 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 10:13:25am

Christian Scientists are exempt from punishment for “faith healing” deaths in many states. Some states are finally moving to remove this exemption that allows the superstitious and stupid to beat and kill their children, but it’s been a real slow haul.

Here’s one. I don’t know if it made it into law or not.

WA legislature moves to remove Christian Science faith healing exemption

doubtfulnews.com

How are things in the rest of the US?

In the late 1970s and early 1980s, most states had faith healing exemptions in their child abuse and neglect laws. Nineteen states still allow religious defences for felony crimes against children.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

16 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 10:14:07am

Sorry about the distraction above between two of us.

To reinterate-If we can connect the dots a little better, identify where guns need to be removed, where the young really need help with mental illness or severe emotional challenges we can take some steps ahead. Help prevent the tragedies with and without a gun involved.

17 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 10:23:24am

Hey WW welcome back!! I had stepped away when you first logged in and commented. Heal fast and well!

18 William Barnett-Lewis  Nov 22, 2014 10:42:22am

re: #1 Skip Intro

And why was he untreated? Because his mother refused to allow it. What are we supposed to do about that, in a country that allows parents to kill their children by praying to some magical sky being instead of using medicine?

While there is a problem in this country with faith healing in place of science, I see nothing in the linked article indicating that is why Lanza was untreated. Perhaps you can provide some other link indicating that is why his mother molested fido in this case?

19 KerFuFFler  Nov 22, 2014 10:54:05am

re: #18 William Barnett-Lewis

While there is a problem in this country with faith healing in place of science, I see nothing in the linked article indicating that is why Lanza was untreated. Perhaps you can provide some other link indicating that is why his mother molested fido in this case?

I agree. Some people may avoid treatment for their kids for religious reasons, but many others may do so out of denial. (“There’s nothing wrong with my boy….”)

The mom probably had pretty serious issues herself since she pretty clearly could not see that her son was too troubled to be safe around guns. Her level of denial seems borderline clinical to me.

20 Dark_Falcon  Nov 22, 2014 12:15:14pm

re: #19 KerFuFFler

I agree. Some people may avoid treatment for their kids for religious reasons, but many others may do so out of denial. (“There’s nothing wrong with my boy….”)

The mom probably had pretty serious issues herself since she pretty clearly could not see that her son was too troubled to be safe around guns. Her level of denial seems borderline clinical to me.

She did try to help him socially and was very involved in his schooling. She tried get him involved in social activities but he refused. Getting him medicated against his will would have been hard because he was 20 and until he took his mother’s shotgun out of the gun safe without her permission he hadn’t broken any laws.

It’s almost impossible to get someone over 18 treated for mental illness against their will if they have not broken the law in America and that’s not going to change, for reasons Romantic_Heretic laid out well.

21 Romantic Heretic  Nov 22, 2014 1:37:05pm

re: #14 KerFuFFler

But what happens when the mentally ill person is so far gone around the bend that they are in no position to make responsible personal healthcare decisions? Sure, there need to be safeguards protecting people with mild disorders from governmental intrusion, but at this point it has become too difficult to step in when someone clearly needs help.

The standard of someone having to pose a threat to one’s self or others before treatment is mandated lets too many people through the cracks. While that policy on the surface seems to be about protecting the rights of the mentally ill, I suspect that public unwillingness to pay for the care of mentally ill people is what it really comes down to.

By that standard I’d be in jail. I was, until I got treated, in no position to make a rational decision. If I’d been institutionalized against my will it wouldn’t have helped. It would have just made me sicker.

Yet the only person I was a danger to was myself.

So I ask, why does a place like Canada with no difference in frequency of mental health problems have so few per capita mass murders while the States has them weekly?

The answer is availability of firearms and a culture that has a high tolerance of and a propensity for violence.

Bringing mental health issues into this discussion is a straw man.

22 KerFuFFler  Nov 22, 2014 2:52:31pm

re: #21 Romantic Heretic

I was, until I got treated, in no position to make a rational decision.

And yet, you did make the rational decision to get help. Can we offer nothing to people who are too ill to recognize that they are ill? I realize that involuntary confinements and treatments can undercut the trust that helps therapy along. And, of course, abuses are possible when people are hospitalized against their will. It would not be easy to find a balance that protects patients while getting more people help but I don’t think that that means our society should just accept that this is the best we can do.

People under 18 can be treated at their parents’ request, and get much needed help. The majority make progress even if they initially felt it was persecution. I believe many adults could make real progress too with proper care and treatment. The way I see it, at a certain point some mentally ill (seriously delusional) people are just as incapable of acting in their own best interest as someone under 18. Must we turn our backs on them? I know that that is the current state of the law but perhaps it needs some tweaking. And I fear that $$ is the biggest reason no one wants to take this on.

23 KerFuFFler  Nov 22, 2014 3:01:19pm

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

She did try to help him socially and was very involved in his schooling. She tried get him involved in social activities but he refused. Getting him medicated against his will would have been hard because he was 20 and until he took his mother’s shotgun out of the gun safe without her permission he hadn’t broken any laws.

It’s almost impossible to get someone over 18 treated for mental illness against their will if they have not broken the law in America and that’s not going to change, for reasons Romantic_Heretic laid out well.

But surely, his mom had years of opportunity to get her son treatment before he turned 18. If they had addressed his issues early on he may not have deteriorated to the extent that he did.

And what the Hell good is a gun safe if the seriously mentally ill person in the house knows how to open it? I’m really disgusted with her inaction because even though she paid with her life for her poor decision making, her choices paved the way for that horrendous massacre.

24 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 5:31:02pm

re: #18 William Barnett-Lewis

While there is a problem in this country with faith healing in place of science, I see nothing in the linked article indicating that is why Lanza was untreated. Perhaps you can provide some other link indicating that is why his mother molested fido in this case?

Molested fido? Really? As for your other question,

After consulting Yale University’s Child Study Center when her son was in the ninth grade, Ms. Lanza resisted its recommendation that he take medication for some of his problems. The report also concluded that Yale’s recommendations “for extensive special education supports, ongoing expert consultation and rigorous therapeutic supports” also “went largely unheeded.”

25 KerFuFFler  Nov 22, 2014 5:48:36pm

re: #24 Skip Intro

Molested fido? Really? As for your other question,

After consulting Yale University’s Child Study Center when her son was in the ninth grade, Ms. Lanza resisted its recommendation that he take medication for some of his problems. The report also concluded that Yale’s recommendations “for extensive special education supports, ongoing expert consultation and rigorous therapeutic supports” also “went largely unheeded.”

I’m with William Bartlett-Lewis on this one: there is no indication that Lanza’s mom did not follow through with recommended treatment because of religious convictions.

And what is wrong with “molested Fido”? Screwed the pooch, fucked the dog……Lanza’s mom fucked up big-time however you want to put it.

26 Skip Intro  Nov 22, 2014 5:51:58pm

re: #25 KerFuFFler

I’m with William Bartlett-Lewis on this one: there is no indication that Lanza’s mom did not follow through with recommended treatment because of religious convictions.

And what is wrong with “molested Fido”? Screwed the pooch, fucked the dog……Lanza’s mom fucked up big-time however you want to put it.

Well, then I apologize for my wording. I didn’t mean to imply that she did.

My point was that in a country that treats faith healing as legitimate medical treatment, there was no way she was going to be forced to provide the necessary medications to her son.

27 KerFuFFler  Nov 22, 2014 6:13:04pm

re: #21 Romantic Heretic

By that standard I’d be in jail. I was, until I got treated, in no position to make a rational decision. If I’d been institutionalized against my will it wouldn’t have helped. It would have just made me sicker.

Why do you say you’e be in jail? Hospitalization is not jail.

And why are you so sure that an involuntary intervention would necessarily have been unsuccessful? Apparently you did not need one since you sought treatment by yourself ultimately (?), but for people who can’t make that leap themselves, should society turn their back on them? My best friend’s daughter (17 years old) was placed in a mental hospital for three weeks very much against her will this last year and has made remarkable progress. What is it about the magical age 18 that means society should turn its back on treating people so incapacitated that they can’t seek treatment?

I am not advocating a return to abusive practices from the past or the Soviet Union. But perhaps in attempting to address former problematic issues the pendulum has swung too far in our society. To me it seems foolish to enshrine “age 18” as a cut-off for being able to intervene in peoples’ mental healthcare when serious conditions like schizophrenia typically don’t even manifest themselves until early adulthood. We need to look forward for a balanced approach to assist people incapacitated by mental illness.

28 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 22, 2014 6:16:47pm

re: #26 Skip Intro

“The country” by and large does no such thing.

29 KerFuFFler  Nov 22, 2014 7:13:38pm

re: #24 Skip Intro

After consulting Yale University’s Child Study Center when her son was in the ninth grade, Ms. Lanza resisted its recommendation that he take medication for some of his problems. The report also concluded that Yale’s recommendations “for extensive special education supports, ongoing expert consultation and rigorous therapeutic supports” also “went largely unheeded.”

Parents’ rights over medical care for their kids should not be absolute. The state intervenes at times but mostly when the households are poor and powerless. Affluenza in action… No wonder Lanza squeaked by!

Here’s a question: if the state should be able to override the parents’ decision to withhold treatment for a minor, why is it so unthinkable for the state to be able to intervene in the case of incapacitated adults?

I don’t think I have all the answers and I am not gleefully anticipating massive round-ups of the mentally ill; I just think exploring such questions (especially here at LGF) may be a thought provoking exercise leading to a more balanced approach.

30 Mich-again  Nov 22, 2014 10:01:15pm

Because his mother was killed the whole question of her accountability was ignored. If she had lived should the police have charged her for providing access to the firearms to her son who she knew was potentially dangerous? I say yes. Rights come with responsibilities.

31 Romantic Heretic  Nov 23, 2014 6:34:48am

re: #27 KerFuFFler

Why do you say you’e be in jail? Hospitalization is not jail.

And why are you so sure that an involuntary intervention would necessarily have been unsuccessful? Apparently you did not need one since you sought treatment by yourself ultimately (?), but for people who can’t make that leap themselves, should society turn their back on them? My best friend’s daughter (17 years old) was placed in a mental hospital for three weeks very much against her will this last year and has made remarkable progress. What is it about the magical age 18 that means society should turn its back on treating people so incapacitated that they can’t seek treatment?

I am not advocating a return to abusive practices from the past or the Soviet Union. But perhaps in attempting to address former problematic issues the pendulum has swung too far in our society. To me it seems foolish to enshrine “age 18” as a cut-off for being able to intervene in peoples’ mental healthcare when serious conditions like schizophrenia typically don’t even manifest themselves until early adulthood. We need to look forward for a balanced approach to assist people incapacitated by mental illness.

I sought treatment after unhooking myself from my own belt. There was no rationality behind it. Just blind instinct to survive. It was a very close thing though.

Also, my depression had a strong element of paranoia to it. Being, to all intents and purposes, arrested for my illness would not have helped my mental state at all.

Ultimately psychiatry was of no help at all in dealing with my illness. Save for, arguably, the drugs. Psychiatry can’t deal with matters of faith. Indeed, it doesn’t even recognize faith exists. My loss of faith can be summed up by the Comedian: What happened to The American Dream? It came true. You’re looking at it.

Finally, are you really proposing criminalizing mental Illness? Do you really want to hand that sort of power to the teahadis? Because don’t forget, the teahadis are in power in much of this country and you know they will not hesitate to use such a tool to quash dissent.

32 KerFuFFler  Nov 23, 2014 10:50:19am

re: #31 Romantic Heretic

Finally, are you really proposing criminalizing mental Illness? Do you really want to hand that sort of power to the teahadis? Because don’t forget, the teahadis are in power in much of this country and you know they will not hesitate to use such a tool to quash dissent.

I am not proposing criminalizing mental illness. But as it is, a lot of mentally ill people end up in jail instead of a hospital because it is cheaper to punish than to offer treatment. That to me seems more like criminalizing mental illness. A lot of the homeless also suffer from mental illness. Perhaps more psychiatric outreach at institutions that serve the homeless would be helpful. More programs along the lines of anger management group sessions but targeting other issues such as paranoia or depression might be helpful. Non-residential programs might feel less threatening even if they are mandated.

I tend to be skeptical of the value of simplistic age cutoffs. If a 17 year old can benefit from mandated treatment, why not a 24 year old? It should be rare, just not quite as impossible as it is now.


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