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1 lostlakehiker  Dec 19, 2014 10:35:50am

This is just nonsense about Mary having been raped. About the account given in the Bible, never mind that it’s an account which flies in the face of what we know about the birds and the bees, being an account of rape.

Here’s the key parts of the story.

And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

So for starters, Mary asks not “please no”, but “how”? And next, she says “be it unto me according to thy word”. That’s consent.

But now skip ahead a bit.

Mary’s Song of Praise

(1 Samuel 2:1-11)

46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

49For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

50And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

51He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

52He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.

53He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

54He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

55As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

56And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

King James version
Mary is not just putting the matter behind her and getting on with her life…she’s rejoicing. That goes to confirm that her first consent was not “well, you’re the boss, I can’t stop you anyway”, but real consent. As informed as consent can get when it’s a matter of miracles.

There is no hint anywhere of reluctance or fear or even misgivings, apart from the one initial misgiving that the whole thing might be impossible.

Conflating this story with rape is a travesty.

2 cinesimon  Dec 19, 2014 10:57:25am

re: #1 lostlakehiker

It’s only a “travesty” if you believe this religion to be too fragile for critical thought.

3 Eclectic Cyborg  Dec 19, 2014 11:14:25am

Was the concept of consent even present in these Ancient cultures?

4 FemNaziBitch  Dec 19, 2014 12:51:35pm
5 lostlakehiker  Dec 19, 2014 1:43:08pm

re: #2 cinesimon

It’s only a “travesty” if you believe this religion to be too fragile for critical thought.

Huh? Critical thought was the whole point of the post. When we’re talking about whether the story amounts to a story of rape, we aren’t talking about whether the story is true or not. We’re talking about whether as a story, it’s a story of rape, or a story of consent.

Within the context of the Bible, when the angel says that thus and so will happen, that doesn’t mean “whether you like it or not, so get used to it”. At least, that’s the way I read it, and I give my evidence. It’s textual evidence, from within the story, because that’s the kind of evidence that counts when we’re talking about what the story is getting at.

The article making the claim that it’s a story of rape fails to address the evidence within the source text (here, the Bible) pointing to the opposite conclusion. The article’s claim is not supported by the evidence. It glosses right past contrary evidence.

Whether women ever get pregnant without a man in the picture somehow? Another question for another day. Not part of this discussion. In discussions of Paul Bunyan, we don’t get into whether “Babe” could have had strong enough bones to support itself.

6 Lidane  Dec 19, 2014 1:50:19pm

re: #3 Eclectic Cyborg

Was the concept of consent even present in these Ancient cultures?

LOL no. Women were property, so inventing stories about a stranger telling a woman that she’s going to get pregnant because a deity arbitrarily decided she should be would have been the exact kind of nonsense they’d go with to keep women in line.

They would also reinforce this sexist garbage by having “her” rant and rave about how wonderful it all is. You can’t have your property deciding she’s got rights, after all. Gotta get her to submit to whatever an imaginary God and all the men around her want for her.

7 iossarian  Dec 19, 2014 1:58:00pm
Many Christians are surprised when told that nowhere in the Bible, either Old Testament or New, does any writer say that a woman’s consent is necessary or even desirable before sex.

It’s an interesting article, but that claim is a stretch given the Song of Solomon, which is essentially about both parties, male and female, being into the idea of enjoying sex. It’s in no way a depiction of a situation in which the man calls all the shots.

On the other hand, it’s true that the Bible was written at a time when there wasn’t really a notion of “consent” for women, the way there is now.

8 Justanotherhuman  Dec 19, 2014 2:02:03pm

re: #6 Lidane

LOL no. Women were property, so inventing stories about a stranger telling a woman that she’s going to get pregnant because a deity arbitrarily decided she should be would have been the exact kind of nonsense they’d go with to keep women in line.

They would also reinforce this sexist garbage by having “her” rant and rave about how wonderful it all is. You can’t have your property deciding she’s got rights, after all. Gotta get her to submit to whatever an imaginary God and all the men around her want for her.

I don’t see that much has really changed, if you look at modern society, in which women are used, almost exclusively, to “sex up” the culture.

9 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Dec 19, 2014 2:03:43pm

In case of Mary there were no sexual relations, so no rape.

But otherwise, there doesn’t seem to be a notion of consent in the Bible.

10 EPR-radar  Dec 19, 2014 5:55:45pm

re: #9 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

In case of Mary there were no sexual relations, so no rape.

But otherwise, there doesn’t seem to be a notion of consent in the Bible.

The case that organized Christianity (along with virtually all known religions) is massively misogynist and patriarchal is simply overwhelming, and need not be diluted by poor arguments (e.g., Mary’s story in the bible is a rape story).

11 FemNaziBitch  Dec 20, 2014 6:39:11am

Any defense that includes references the bible is plain stupid.

THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN, translated, rewritten, parsed out in committee and edited BY MEN.

12 FemNaziBitch  Dec 20, 2014 6:42:46am

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty.

Mary was underage. —without consent of her father, it was RAPE.

13 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Dec 20, 2014 6:49:38am

re: #12 FemNaziBitch

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty.

Mary was underage. —without consent of her father, it was RAPE.

God didn’t have any sort of sexual relations with Mary, so what “it” it was, that was rape?

14 FemNaziBitch  Dec 20, 2014 6:52:38am

re: #13 Islamo-Masonic Vourdalak

God didn’t have any sort of sexual relations with Mary, so what “it” it was, that was rape?

now that is an interesting question.

15 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Dec 20, 2014 6:56:52am

re: #14 FemNaziBitch

now that is an interesting question.

Sure in case of Mary we have a violation of bodily autonomy. Rape is also a violation of bodily autonomy, but not every such violation is rape. E.g. involuntary amputation or torture is also such a violation. So we can see the story as morally icky without attaching a label to it that doesn’t quite fit.

16 jaunte  Dec 20, 2014 9:05:09am

This GOP Lawmaker Wants a Woman to Get Permission From the Father Before Having an Abortion

The bill contains exceptions for women who become pregnant as the result of rape or incest—but there are caveats.

“Just like any rape, you have to report it, and you have to prove it,” Brattin tells Mother Jones. “So you couldn’t just go and say, ‘Oh yeah, I was raped’ and get an abortion. It has to be a legitimate rape.”

“…I am honored to be your State Representative, and I will work hard to serve the great people of the Missouri 55th District. We do not need the government to try to stimulate and attempt to control our economy, the government needs to just get out of our way and stop wasting our hard earned money on endless programs that have proven time and time again to be ineffective. It’s time to bring the power back to the People*, back to the free market, and put a stop to the slow erosion of our God ordained liberties and freedoms.”
rickbrattin.org

*Adult white males


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