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1 BigPapa  Jan 9, 2015 7:31:57am

Good find and post Randall.

2 KerFuFFler  Jan 9, 2015 7:36:31am

I got down-dinged for expressing that sentiment yesterday. Violence is an unacceptable response to some of the ugliness published in Charlie Hebdo, but it is a mistake to honor all the slain cartoonists as brave, freedom of expression heroes. If someone murdered a bunch of neo-nazi propagandists for their offensive portrayal of Jews would that make the neo-nazis heroic defenders of freedom of expression? Our legal system and the people prosecuting the murderers would be defending freedom of expression, not the neo-nazis taking advantage of our freedoms.

Freedom of expression means that people are free to express douchebaggy things. People who do are douchebags, not heroes. I respect their right to be douchebags. I don’t think it is right to kill them or act like they are heroes just because they got killed.

The French police who were killed, now they were heroes!

3 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 9, 2015 7:52:17am

The author doesn’t really cite any evidence for this conclusion and that he cites the idiot and asshole Jacob Canfield discredits his article even further. Here is the level of Canfield’s argumentation:

Even in a fresh-off-the-press, glowing BBC profile of Charb, Hebdo’s murdered editor, he comes across as a racist asshole.

Charb had strongly defended Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons featuring the Prophet Muhammad.

“Muhammad isn’t sacred to me,” he told the Associated Press in 2012, after the magazine’s offices had been fire-bombed.

“I don’t blame Muslims for not laughing at our drawings. I live under French law. I don’t live under Koranic law.”

He called a just murdered man a “racist asshole” based on a passage that doesn’t contain a single hint of racism. That’s what the Slate guy calls “eloquent”.

CH was a left-wing magazine that positioned itself as anti-racist. Now, I’m not taking a position on whether it’s true or not, but it was certainly anti-National Front.

True, some American bloggers have posted their willful out of context misinterpretations of some of the cartoons, but this only showed their cultural ignorance, nothing else.

4 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 9, 2015 8:00:43am
Charlie Hebdo (French pronunciation: ​[⠺ʁli ▻do]; French for Weekly Charlie) is a French satirical weekly newspaper, featuring cartoons, reports, polemics, and jokes. Irreverent and stridently non-conformist in tone, the publication is strongly anti-racist[2] and left-wing, publishing articles on the extreme right, Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, politics, culture, etc. According to its former editor, Charb (Stéphane Charbonnier), the magazine’s editorial viewpoint reflects “all components of left wing pluralism, and even abstainers”.[3]

en.wikipedia.org

5 KerFuFFler  Jan 9, 2015 8:15:04am

re: #3 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

100 lashes if you didn’t die laughing

I find the depiction of the Arab in this cartoon highly reminiscent of the images of Jews used by the Nazis in their propaganda. Not all of the Hebdo cartoonists created such drawings, but why they would publish something like this if they are not catering to bigots beats me.

6 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 9, 2015 8:17:35am

re: #5 KerFuFFler

Image: 100 lashes if you didn’t die laughingI find the depiction of the Arab in this cartoon highly reminiscent of the images of Jews used by the Nazis in their propaganda.

I don’t.

7 CuriousLurker  Jan 9, 2015 8:21:59am

re: #3 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I have a couple of questions then: CH clearly didn’t feel the need to concern themselves with others’ context, knowing full well that what they were doing would offend—often in the most vulgar, demeaning way possible—so why is it important that we should bother to understand theirs?

If religions can be judged based on a literal reading of verses from their holy books sans the context/exegesis provided by scholars of said faiths, then why does CH get a pass when it comes to literal interpretation?

To be honest, their “satire” didn’t strike me as the least bit clever or funny. To me it was more like the sort of rude “humor” encountered in high school (e.g. vulgar limericks or drawings on bathroom walls, etc.) It also reminded me of the kids who fancy themselves rebels & iconoclasts when all they really are—at least to most people—is obnoxious & ill mannered little snots.

I guess what I’m saying is that as far as I’m concerned CH’s form of expression was lacking social value because while free speech is important, so is the social contract requiring civility. Maybe that’s just me & my puritanical American outlook, but… *shrugs*

8 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 9, 2015 8:24:50am

re: #7 CuriousLurker

I have a couple of questions then: CH clearly didn’t feel the need to concern themselves with others’ context, knowing full well that what they were doing would offend—often in the most vulgar, demeaning way possible—so why is it important that we should bother to understand theirs?

Well, there are two options:
1. one can understand their context and, if one then so wishes, reject their cartoons on whatever other truthful grounds one can find (surely there are plenty);
2. or one can willfully reject the context and continue telling untruths.

So it basically depends on whether one wants to be truthful or not.

9 Thanos  Jan 9, 2015 8:25:06am

It is telling that the both far left and the far right in Europe both use xenophobic stereotypes for non-whites (or impure whites,) society is a bit more callous and paranoid there towards minorities than most are here no matter how hard you find that to believe. (e.g. if you scroll down in this post you can see far right Vlaams Belang cartoonist Fre’s portrayal of Sabrina Williams in this post, it’s little different than some at Charlie Hebdo.)

10 BigPapa  Jan 9, 2015 8:27:31am

re: #7 CuriousLurker

I guess what I’m saying is that as far as I’m concerned CH’s form of expression was lacking social value because while free speech is important, so is the social contract requiring civility. Maybe that’s just me & my puritanical American outlook, but… *shrugs*

Sergey makes a good point but there is some vulgarity stewed together with biting satire. I like vulgarity, but not all do.

I’m reminded by a recent notion from Tim Wise: free speech isn’t free, but a lot of it is cheap.

11 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 9, 2015 8:29:05am

BTW, I cringe at the cartoons. Most are simply crude, some are unnecessarily vulgar, most I don’t find funny. The only one I really liked was of Mohammed crying about his fundie followers. It’s very humane. But what I like or don’t like is neither here nor there.

12 Thanos  Jan 9, 2015 8:38:53am

In Belgium it’s not uncommon to hear someone call someone less that purely white skinned “Macaca” — the same imported term that caused problems for George Allen, which amounts to calling a person a monkey.

13 CuriousLurker  Jan 9, 2015 8:46:58am

re: #8 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

Well, there are two options:
1. one can understand their context and, if one then so wishes, reject their cartoons on whatever other truthful grounds one can find (surely there are plenty);
2. or one can willfully reject the context and continue telling untruths.

So it basically depends on whether one wants to be truthful or not.

Again, I don’t understand why people are allowed to reject context when it comes to religion without being considered untruthful when discussing said beliefs. It seems like a double standard.

Anyway, it’s probably something we’re never gonna agree on, so I’ll just mosey on back to the main thread until I’m hear what happened with the hostages.

14 CuriousLurker  Jan 9, 2015 8:47:39am

re: #10 BigPapa

I’m reminded by a recent notion from Tim Wise: free speech isn’t free, but a lot of it is cheap.

Heh.

15 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 9, 2015 8:49:16am

re: #13 CuriousLurker

Again, I don’t understand why people are allowed to reject context when it comes to religion without being considered untruthful when discussing said beliefs. It seems like a double standard.

Who said context is not important when discussing religion? Of course it is. Context is not something subjective that can be dismissed or bargained about. It exists and should be taken into account.

16 goddamnedfrank  Jan 9, 2015 12:42:25pm

re: #6 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD

I don’t.

Yeah, no, it kind of is.

It’s a totally different era and style of course, and yes, different in intent / context. However the caricatures share several rather unfortunate characteristics.

17 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 9, 2015 3:39:40pm

re: #16 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, no, it kind of is.

Well, no, it isn’t. I’m afraid I can differentiate between “evil/threatening” (which is how Jews were invariably depicted by the Nazis) and “wacky” (which is how Mohammed is depicted above). You must not have seen a lot of Nazi propaganda (or actually mean anti-Muslim images) to make such a superficial comparison.

Now, the author of the article mentioned something about the nose. The cartoonist happens to have an affinity for drawing huge noses*, so that’s neither here nor there. But even if one were to argue that he is using some lazy stereotype, this has also been used by hordes of cartoonists throughout the years (cf. Cox & Forkum), so there would have been more appropriate points of comparison than the Nazis. Which is a huge stretch designed to disrupt the discussion.

—-
* Just a sample:

Image: 100202940_o.jpg
Image: 100462861_o.jpg
Image: 101392446_o.jpg
Image: 100310620_o.jpg
Image: 83588975_o.jpg
Image: 45218176.jpg
Image: 84347243_o.jpg
Image: 89988518_o.jpg
Image: 82457286_o.jpg

18 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 9, 2015 4:13:54pm

The IF Stone caricature is just like the Nazi propaganda! Or not.


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