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28 comments

1 Lumberhead  Jan 25, 2015 2:37:05pm

Quite disappointing since it looks like Syriza might be coming into power there. In a way, it’s reminiscent of the Scalise mess happening just as the Republicans were taking control of the Congress.

2 CuriousLurker  Jan 25, 2015 2:46:02pm

re: #1 Lumberhead

Indeed. Someone in a thread downstairs just gave me a NY Times link—they won. Guess I need to update my page.

3 The Vicious Babushka  Jan 25, 2015 2:58:47pm

How many Jews even are there in Greece? There used to be a large community in Salonika, but they were wiped out during the Holocaust, so who is even left?

4 Skandal  Jan 25, 2015 3:04:00pm

re: #3 The Vicious Babushka

As of 2012, the Jewish population of Greece was 4,500. 0.04% of the total population. According to Jewish Population of the World

5 CuriousLurker  Jan 25, 2015 3:16:50pm

re: #4 Skandal

As of 2012, the Jewish population of Greece was 4,500. 0.04% of the total population. According to Jewish Population of the World

Thanks, I’m going to add this as well.

6 De Kolta Chair  Jan 25, 2015 3:51:17pm

Not a bad time to be an extremist racist anti-Semite nationalist chucklehead, i.e. a fascist, in Europe.

7 team_fukit  Jan 25, 2015 4:33:06pm

Hitler and the Nazis did a freakin’ number on Greece, still ripples today

Mark Mazower’s Inside Hitler’s Greece is a great book on the topic

8 electrotek  Jan 25, 2015 4:39:46pm

And people complain about Turkey but turn a blind eye to Greek anti-Semitism?

9 CuriousLurker  Jan 25, 2015 5:09:10pm

re: #8 electrotek

And people complain about Turkey but turn a blind eye to Greek anti-Semitism?

Bigotry is bad no matter who’s doing it to whom or how small the number of people affected, but given Europe’s history of antisemitism and the high index numbers for countries like Greece (69%), Poland (45%), and Hungary (41%), I don’t think the recent rise in antisemitism can be attributed solely to the presence of Muslims (immigrants or native-born), as some people are trying to do.

That is NOT to say that there is no antisemitism amongst Muslims—there obviously is and it’s a problem—but unlike France, their numbers in the countries mentioned above are much fewer. When I read about antisemitism in those countries, it’s not coming primarily from their Muslim communities.

10 Skandal  Jan 25, 2015 6:19:01pm

re: #5 CuriousLurker

Thank you

11 cinesimon  Jan 25, 2015 6:23:42pm

Wow. ONE childish rant from one politician in Greece, and suddenly the new left wing government in Greece are chucklehead fascist nationalists who’re DEFINITELY going to put all Greece’ Jews in mortal danger.
Ffs. Talk about needing to be victimized.
Who needs to know about the actual leftist party that got in power - one of them is a dick! That means the Jews are going to have to flee Greece, of course!

12 cinesimon  Jan 25, 2015 6:24:07pm

re: #8 electrotek

No, they don’t.

13 CuriousLurker  Jan 25, 2015 6:50:40pm

re: #11 cinesimon

Yeah, ignore all the other stuff and just focus on that one thing as if that’s all this page is about. You always pull this hit & run crap. Lame.

14 Surabaya Stew  Jan 25, 2015 9:08:42pm

Regarding the negative feelings and backward thinking that many Greeks have for Jews, keep in mind that Greece is perhaps the only European country that has never come to terms with the fact that a small (yet significant) percentage of its population used to be Jewish. This historic amnesia is explained fairly well by Robert Kaplan in his book Balkan Ghosts, his chapters on Greece are well-written and poignant, as he used to live in Athens.

My point is, that as the majority (63%) of Greeks have some degree of anti-semetic feelings; it seems hardly a phenomenon of either the Left or the Right exclusively. Of course, I’ll wager that there are fewer jew-haters in Syriza than in Golden Dawn (and what a bunch of fascist loonies the latter are), but the fact is there are way more anti-Semites represented in Greek political parties than in any other European country. Sad but true.

15 CuriousLurker  Jan 25, 2015 9:13:34pm

re: #14 Surabaya Stew

Many thanks for the thoughtful response & useful info. I’ll definitely look into how Greece is different.

P.S. Yeah, Golden Dawn is just flat out creepy.

16 Prof. Backpfeifengesicht, PhD  Jan 26, 2015 12:36:02am

This is just another timely reminder that “left” is wrongly conflated with “liberal” in the US parlance. In general, “the left” can be as bad as “the right”.

17 Aye Pod  Jan 26, 2015 5:37:08am

re: #11 cinesimon

Wow. ONE childish rant from one politician in Greece, and suddenly the new left wing government in Greece are chucklehead fascist nationalists who’re DEFINITELY going to put all Greece’ Jews in mortal danger.
Ffs. Talk about needing to be victimized.
Who needs to know about the actual leftist party that got in power - one of them is a dick! That means the Jews are going to have to flee Greece, of course!

You make a perfectly valid point IMO. It annoys me when I see people on European sites like the Guardian talking about America as if it is one vast homogenous lump with no important internal distinctions; it also annoys me when people on American sites do the same with Europe/European countries, as has happened here. It always comes off as an attempt to feel smugly, securely superior to someone.

Maybe next time Pamela Geller blurts some hysterical nonsense I should just say something like “Well, this kind of thing is hardly surprising given America’s history of slavery and genocide against native peoples”.

What’s wrong with that statement is that it fails to acknowledge and therefore disrespects everyone in America who doesn’t think that way. Even if wingnuts take the lead in American polls, even when they have a wingnut president installed, it will still be wrong to speak in that way. We have no problem with why this would be wrong when applied to Muslims, or to America - so why is it getting a free pass when it’s Europe?

We need to be more careful about drawing conclusions about an entire country from one crazy voice or poorly scrutinised statistic. Otherwise we’ll end up believing that Birmingham UK is a no-go zone and that London is 95% antisemitic (that one is from a currently viral but entirely wrong stat that’s doing the rounds right now).

The real big story here is that a leftist, anti-austerity party has won an election in Europe, which is giving a lot of people hope that the neo-liberal austerity preachers that currently hold sway across the continent can be defeated. And that should be good news - especially since many of the perennial “Europe doomsayers” were predicting victories for the likes of “Golden Dawn”.

18 RadicalModerate  Jan 26, 2015 6:22:39am

A couple of things that need to be said about this story -
The original article is from February 6, 2014 - and as a result of Karypidis’ antisemitic rantings, his candidacy for Governor of Western Macedonia was rather quickly yanked by the Syriza party. (source: jta.org)

For what it’s worth, at least on the face of things the newly-elected Syriza party appears to be trying to weed out the bigots in their ranks.

Finally for those individuals on the right who were pulling for the neo-fascist Golden Dawn party, saying they would be swept into power via a nationalist tidal wave - they barely cracked 6%.

19 iceweasel  Jan 26, 2015 7:55:58am

re: #18 RadicalModerate

A couple of things that need to be said about this story -
The original article is from February 6, 2014 - and as a result of Karypidis’ antisemitic rantings, his candidacy for Governor of Western Macedonia was rather quickly yanked by the Syriza party. (source: jta.org)

For what it’s worth, at least on the face of things the newly-elected Syriza party appears to be trying to weed out the bigots in their ranks.

Finally for those individuals on the right who were pulling for the neo-fascist Golden Dawn party, saying they would be swept into power via a nationalist tidal wave - they barely cracked 6%.

There you go, making sense agin. :-)

20 CuriousLurker  Jan 26, 2015 9:35:07am

re: #17 Aye Pod

You make a perfectly valid point IMO. It annoys me when I see people on European sites like the Guardian talking about America as if it is one vast homogenous lump with no important internal distinctions; it also annoys me when people on American sites do the same with Europe/European countries, as has happened here. It always comes off as an attempt to feel smugly, securely superior to someone.

Which statement, specifically, are you referring to that makes the gross generalization that treats all Greeks as a monolith?

Maybe next time Pamela Geller blurts some hysterical nonsense I should just say something like “Well, this kind of thing is hardly surprising given America’s history of slavery and genocide against native peoples”.

What’s wrong with that statement is that it fails to acknowledge and therefore disrespects everyone in America who doesn’t think that way. Even if wingnuts take the lead in American polls, even when they have a wingnut president installed, it will still be wrong to speak in that way. We have no problem with why this would be wrong when applied to Muslims, or to America - so why is it getting a free pass when it’s Europe?

Yeah, sure, that’s exactly the same thing. Remind me again which U.S. state Geller was running as a candidate governor for?

Try again.

We need to be more careful about drawing conclusions about an entire country from one crazy voice or poorly scrutinised statistic. Otherwise we’ll end up believing that Birmingham UK is a no-go zone and that London is 95% antisemitic (that one is from a currently viral but entirely wrong stat that’s doing the rounds right now). […]

Please indicate the specific conclusions drawn by quoting them.

For the record, as I said in my #13, my gripe with cinesimon—which seems ot have triggered much outrage—was 1.) the fact that s/he cherry-picked one thing to gripe about and ignored the rest, and 2.) her/his tone. It’s not just this once, it has happened repeatedly—s/he comes flying out of nowhere screeching a bunch of melodramatic outrage, then disappears.

I find it annoying and think it’s a childish tactic. If you think I’m being unfair or overstating things, go search the past comments and see for yourself. It’s hit & run emotional crap—-if one has a storng case to make, then stick around to discuss & defend it like an adult instead of having a verbal hissy fit, turning on one’s heel, then slamming the (virtual) door to avoid further discussion.

21 CuriousLurker  Jan 26, 2015 9:42:49am

re: #18 RadicalModerate

A couple of things that need to be said about this story -
The original article is from February 6, 2014 - and as a result of Karypidis’ antisemitic rantings, his candidacy for Governor of Western Macedonia was rather quickly yanked by the Syriza party. (source: jta.org)

For what it’s worth, at least on the face of things the newly-elected Syriza party appears to be trying to weed out the bigots in their ranks.

Finally for those individuals on the right who were pulling for the neo-fascist Golden Dawn party, saying they would be swept into power via a nationalist tidal wave - they barely cracked 6%.

I didn’t notice until late last night that the article was from last year, and you’re correct that they quickly dropped Karypidis. I was going to add the info from the same article you linked to this morning, but unfortunately it was a typical Monday at work and I wasn’t able to catch a break and get back to my page until about 20 minutes ago.

22 iossarian  Jan 26, 2015 10:27:54am

I think parts of Europe have a problem with anti-semitism that goes beyond the usual low-level racism/bigotry that pervades all societies to some extent.

On the other hand, I find myself wondering what the reaction over here would be if some Greek cops pulled up in a Jewish neighborhood and shot a 12-year old kid on sight because he’d been playing with a BB gun.

Because that’s what’s going on in America.

23 CuriousLurker  Jan 26, 2015 10:53:55am

re: #22 iossarian

I think parts of Europe have a problem with anti-semitism that goes beyond the usual low-level racism/bigotry that pervades all societies to some extent.

Agreed.

On the other hand, I find myself wondering what the reaction over here would be if some Greek cops pulled up in a Jewish neighborhood and shot a 12-year old kid on sight because he’d been playing with a BB gun.

Because that’s what’s going on in America.

I don’t understand what bearing one has on the other. We criticize many forms of American racism & bigotry here at LGF all the time. Does the fact that those things exist in the U.S. mean that we’re not allowed to point them out when they happen elsewhere?

Early Americans committed what essentially amounted to genocide against Native Americans. Does that mean we shouldn’t condemn the Holocaust?

I don’t get your point. Please elaborate.

24 Thanos  Jan 26, 2015 12:37:33pm

The new government was formed by Syriza allying with the hard right / anti immigrant Independent party. There will be future rifts — the right fringe of the government is very hard core anti-Turk more than they are anti-Jew.

From NY Times

However, one point of potential conflict between the partners is immigration: Syriza wants more rights for migrants and asylum seekers, while Independent Greeks want to take a stronger stance against neighboring Turkey to stop a flood of would-be migrants from entering Greece. More confrontational efforts to curb immigration amid an economic downturn have strengthened Greece’s neo-fascist Golden Dawn party, which placed third in Sunday’s vote.

nytimes.com

25 iossarian  Jan 26, 2015 12:51:16pm

re: #23 CuriousLurker

Agreed.

I don’t understand what bearing one has on the other. We criticize many forms of American racism & bigotry here at LGF all the time. Does the fact that those things exist in the U.S. mean that we’re not allowed to point them out when they happen elsewhere?

Early Americans committed what essentially amounted to genocide against Native Americans. Does that mean we shouldn’t condemn the Holocaust?

I don’t get your point. Please elaborate.

My point is that American state discrimination against minorities goes far beyond what’s going on in Western Europe and is roundly castigated (for reasonable reasons) as anti-semitism. It bugs me because in fact, Europe has governments that in general act more benevolently towards their people, including minorities, than is the case in the US.

Now, I do agree that it shouldn’t be out of bounds to call out what’s going on in some particular case on the grounds that worse things happen elsewhere. (That’s the bogus argument that gets made all too often in the case of Israel, incidentally, so it would be hypocritical of me to say otherwise.)

On the other hand, it’s fair to point out that the summary execution and rampant imprisonment of minorities is simply not happening in Europe to the extent it is here, so claims of virulent discrimination or poisonous attitudes should be interpreted in that light. The left-wing government that now makes up the bulk of the coalition in Greece is, in my understanding, a fairly typical social-democratic organization, and not particularly disposed to bigotry.

26 CuriousLurker  Jan 26, 2015 1:15:17pm

re: #25 iossarian

My point is that American state discrimination against minorities goes far beyond what’s going on in Western Europe and is roundly castigated (for reasonable reasons) as anti-semitism. It bugs me because in fact, Europe has governments that in general act more benevolently towards their people, including minorities, than is the case in the US.

Now, I do agree that it shouldn’t be out of bounds to call out what’s going on in some particular case on the grounds that worse things happen elsewhere. (That’s the bogus argument that gets made all too often in the case of Israel, incidentally, so it would be hypocritical of me to say otherwise.)

On the other hand, it’s fair to point out that the summary execution and rampant imprisonment of minorities is simply not happening in Europe to the extent it is here, so claims of virulent discrimination or poisonous attitudes should be interpreted in that light. The left-wing government that now makes up the bulk of the coalition in Greece is, in my understanding, a fairly typical social-democratic organization, and not particularly disposed to bigotry.

Fair enough.

As for what the parties are like, all I know is what I read. I try to stick to reliable sources, but I guess no news report can be completely objective as long as there’s a human being writing it (confirmation bias, choice of vocabulary, framing, which details are reported and which ignored, etc.—all subjective).

There have been occasions where I’ve compared several versions of the exact same event from mainstream sources, yet came away from each article with a different impression—sometimes a little bit different, sometimes a lot—depending on which facts were presented and how.

27 Aye Pod  Jan 26, 2015 6:48:37pm

re: #20 CuriousLurker

Which statement, specifically, are you referring to that makes the gross generalization that treats all Greeks as a monolith?

I was talking to cinesimon about the dangers of drawing conclusions about entire groups/countries/continents from poorly researched ‘facts’ about parts of the world you are not familiar with. I totally understand where he’s coming from. An anti-austerity party (that rarest of things - an actual political party that doesn’t have clobbering the poor at the core of it’s economic strategy!) wins an election in a European country - giving hope to poor people right across the continent - and how do we see this important event reported here? A page that presents a year old story about an anti-semitic ex-MP who was sacked for the very outburst the story references.

Could his criticism have been any more vindicated?

28 CuriousLurker  Jan 26, 2015 7:54:36pm

re: #27 Aye Pod

Interesting that you’re still focusing only on part of what was posted.

As for poorly researched ‘facts’, I posted a correction on the ‘facts’ I got wrong.

As for creating a page about parts of the world I’m not familiar with, if we all only posted about things we had personal, first-hand experience with, then things would be pretty limited, wouldn’t they? BTW, I had no idea you were Greek—all this time I’ve been under the impression you were Scottish. //

If the anti-austerity party is so noble and you dislike my page about it, there’s nothing to stop you from posting your own describing how wonderful they are.

As for cinesimon, I’m not taking anything s/he says seriously until s/he learns to be civil. That free speech stuff works both ways, right?


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