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1 WhatEVs  Mar 11, 2015 2:07:36pm

I can’t get the ringing out of my ears from your jumping up and down at the joyous death of a kid.

Bravo.

Asshole.

2 palomino  Mar 11, 2015 2:14:50pm

You’re conveniently forgetting the role of the prosecutor here. The no bill grand jury decision was a result of being guided by a prosecutor who didn’t really want a grand jury indictment in the first place. By introducing so much exculpatory evidence at a grand jury proceeding, he turned the process upside down. That would typically be the job of the defense attorney at trail. Conversely, if the prosecutor found no legitimate reason to even pursue an indictment, he should have explained that, rather than going through a sham grand jury proceeding.

You’re right: some of us may have overreacted. We may have lost sight of the details here. Probably because we’ve seen this movie so many times before—and since—Brown’s death.

But there’s a much larger issue you’re not addressing—the use of deadly force by police against unarmed people. If you’re not pissed off about the number of (primarily minority) unarmed people being shot by our police officers, you’re either not paying attention or you’ve just got a very different sense of what constitutes justice, morality, and equal protection.

3 Dark_Falcon  Mar 11, 2015 2:21:25pm

re: #2 palomino

The point of the grand jury was to get the evidence on the official record and avoid the appearance of a cover-up. D.A. McCulloch failed in that second objective, but things might have been even worse had he just decided on his own not to prosecute.

4 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 2:34:25pm

Well, I will speak for myself only.

Just because the DOJ mostly exculpated Wilson doesn’t mean that the criticisms of the grand jury and McCulloch were somehow unfounded. There were two different investigations. I accept the one by the DOJ (and admit that I was mistaken in my initial conclusions about Brown and Wilson based on limited evidence - albeit all I wanted was Wilson put on trial, not his head on a platter) and I was duly skeptical of the one by the FPD - and, it turns out, for good reasons, which you may learn if you read that other DOJ report that you chose not to mention.

5 lostlakehiker  Mar 11, 2015 2:49:16pm

re: #1 WhatEVs

I can’t get the ringing out of my ears from your jumping up and down at the joyous death of a kid.

Bravo.

Asshole.

Now you know perfectly well that’s not what I said.

What I did say was that the Ferguson grand jury got it right. They looked at the evidence, and the FBI looked at the evidence, and not only was there not any prospect of convicting Wilson of murder, there wasn’t any prospect of convicting him of anything. Not one single witness could be found whose account squared with the forensic evidence and was consistent from telling to telling. In other words, there is at the very least no proof that Wilson committed a crime.

Whether he misjudged the situation is another story. And whether the result was a good one? Again, a different question. Of course things ended badly. I would rather Brown had lived.

I furiously reject your libelous accusation that I rejoice at Brown’s death. How dare you!

6 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 3:04:36pm

re: #5 lostlakehiker

Please, bullshit.

A grand juror is suing St. Louis County Prosecutor Bob McCulloch in an effort to speak out on what happened in the Darren Wilson case. Under typical circumstances, grand jurors are prohibited by law from discussing cases they were involved in.

The grand juror, referred to only as “Grand Juror Doe” in the lawsuit, takes issue with how McCulloch characterized the case. McCulloch released evidence presented to the grand jury and publicly discussed the case after the grand jury decided not to indict Wilson, then a Ferguson police officer, in the shooting death of Michael Brown, an 18-year-old African American.

“In [the grand juror]’s view, the current information available about the grand jurors’ views is not entirely accurate — especially the implication that all grand jurors believed that there was no support for any charges,” the lawsuit says. (A grand jury’s decision does not have to be unanimous.)

news.stlpublicradio.org

7 lostlakehiker  Mar 11, 2015 3:41:16pm

re: #6 Nyet

Please, bullshit.

news.stlpublicradio.org

You will now be saying that the FBI report is itself racist and a pack of lies?

Whether there were procedural faults in the Ferguson grand jury proceeding, or other faults, the point remains. Their decision to not indict was correct.

You really should read the report. it’s linked. The US Justice Department studied the matter and concluded that there wasn’t any case worth pursuing against Wilson.

8 lostlakehiker  Mar 11, 2015 3:44:20pm

re: #4 Nyet

Well, I will speak for myself only.

Just because the DOJ mostly exculpated Wilson doesn’t mean that the criticisms of the grand jury and McCulloch were somehow unfounded. There were two different investigations. I accept the one by the DOJ (and admit that I was mistaken in my initial conclusions about Brown and Wilson based on limited evidence - albeit all I wanted was Wilson put on trial, not his head on a platter) and I was duly skeptical of the one by the FPD - and, it turns out, for good reasons, which you may learn if you read that other DOJ report that you chose not to mention.

The other report was about another topic. I accept it too, but there’s no point in preaching to the choir.

9 lostlakehiker  Mar 11, 2015 4:04:44pm

re: #2 palomino

You’re conveniently forgetting the role of the prosecutor here. The no bill grand jury decision was a result of being guided by a prosecutor who didn’t really want a grand jury indictment in the first place. By introducing so much exculpatory evidence at a grand jury proceeding, he turned the process upside down. That would typically be the job of the defense attorney at trail. Conversely, if the prosecutor found no legitimate reason to even pursue an indictment, he should have explained that, rather than going through a sham grand jury proceeding.

You’re right: some of us may have overreacted. We may have lost sight of the details here. Probably because we’ve seen this movie so many times before—and since—Brown’s death.

But there’s a much larger issue you’re not addressing—the use of deadly force by police against unarmed people. If you’re not pissed off about the number of (primarily minority) unarmed people being shot by our police officers, you’re either not paying attention or you’ve just got a very different sense of what constitutes justice, morality, and equal protection.

There are other shootings that have been in the news. Take, for example, the one in Cleveland, where this kid was shot and he hadn’t done anything at all—-that’s a lot different from the Ferguson case.

The 911 dispatcher left out crucial detail when relaying the account of the original caller. Caller said the kid was brandishing what was either a real gun or a toy gun—-she couldn’t be sure. Dispatcher told the responding officers that she had said it was a gun. That’s inexcusable.

Then, the responding officers get there, and they don’t spend any time at all sizing things up. Just—-bang. Again, inexcusable. And finally, we learn that the cop who shot the kid had a record at another department that got him booted for bad judgment and a tendency to overreact. To put it nicely.

Three inexcusable failures or wrong actions in one story. Wow! But why should I bring it up? You know about it, I know about it, and we are surely agreed on the matter. Plus, it’s off topic.

If the new topic is instances of police shooting and killing people when the evidence clearly shows they had no excuse to have done so, then yeah, I deplore that. There are too many such stories, and police departments need to be using more body cameras, for starters. As I have said before.

I wouldn’t want to be misquoted as having said they should kill more whites, but yes, the victims are too often minorities. The cure is going to be a slow one, though. Cameras can be expensive. Cultural resistance needs to be turned around. And in all of this, a meticulous respect for the truth will be essential. Which brings us back to where we came in.

10 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 4:06:57pm

re: #7 lostlakehiker

You will now be saying that the FBI report is itself racist and a pack of lies?

LOL, you haven’t even read what I wrote in the first comment, you presumptuous prick.

You really should read the report. it’s linked. The US Justice Department studied the matter and concluded that there wasn’t any case worth pursuing against Wilson.

You fucking idiot, I read the report a few hours after it was released and much earlier than you. You’re not worth discussing anything with any further.

11 palomino  Mar 11, 2015 5:37:28pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

The point of the grand jury was to get the evidence on the official record and avoid the appearance of a cover-up. D.A. McCulloch failed in that second objective, but things might have been even worse had he just decided on his own not to prosecute.

It’s as if you paid no attention to what actually happened. By his actions in court, the DA essentially DID make the decision not to prosecute. He tipped the scale so far that he assured there would be no bill and thus no trial.

I don’t think you understand what the point of a grand jury is if you’re making such an argument. Not to be disrespectful, but why don’t you bother looking up the definitions of legal terms before throwing them around as if you know what they mean?

12 palomino  Mar 11, 2015 8:54:17pm

re: #9 lostlakehiker

I wouldn’t want to be misquoted as having said they should kill more whites, but yes, the victims are too often minorities. The cure is going to be a slow one, though. Cameras can be expensive. Cultural resistance needs to be turned around. And in all of this, a meticulous respect for the truth will be essential. Which brings us back to where we came in.

You make some good points in your overall post, and I agree with most of them. So I’ll just respond to your conclusion.

Sure, cameras can be expensive. Then again, so are grand juries, DOJ investigations, and all the other hoopla that goes along with so many questionable shootings. Plus, video and audio of the Brown shooting may have prevented a lot of the costly civil unrest that ensued in the aftermath. At the very least, it would probably have given us some clarity about what transpired.

Minorities aren’t simply imagining that they are over-policed. Yes, “meticulous respect for the truth” of each case is essential. But, at an even more fundamental level, there has to be some acknowledgement by the white majority that minorities are treated differently. As long as the Rudy Giuliani approach of “screw the Eric Garners” of the world is the prevalent attitude nationwide, then there will be no knocking down of the walls of cultural resistance.


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