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1 Drive By Commenter  Mar 17, 2015 5:07:48pm

If they cannot find it they will fabricate it. I’m slipping into thinking every single politician, person, place and thing that likes, votes, supports or agrees with the GOP is a vile piece of shit. Your party is GONE. Your party has LEFT THE BUILDING. Your party is a fucking CULT. Now I need a Democrat to tell me they are disappointed with Obama. I am too. But he’s not fucking nuts like 99% of the Cargo Cult. Lot’s of Mc’s and Mac’s and auld sod names in that party. And on St Paddys Day I’m reminded of the past and how these fortunate sons chose to fuck poor and weak Americans. just as when their forefathers were poor and weak, they were fucked by the politician and wealthy who sold the very earth from beneath their feet. But that’s me. Altruistic and a dreamer, even though my scars remind me that what my heart wishes is not always so. Fuck them all. They say an optimist sees the glass half full, the pessimist half empty. I want to know where the water came from. Their water is fetid and foul.

2 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 6:37:31am

I think it is fascinating that those (progressives?) who see racism and xenophobia in voter ID laws and legitimately raise the 24th Amendment in defense of their position tend to be the very same people who support a law mandating people to either purchase health insurance or pay a government imposed “tax penalty”.

In other words, why is an adherent of the ACA who is willing to allow the government to withhold from another person’s income tax refund “2% of (their) yearly household income…or…$325 per person for the year…”, getting so bent out of shape over the time and gas required to visit the DMV? For an otherwise free ID (for example)? An ID that simply helps to prove that a person is who they say they are, and that they haven’t fraudulently assumed someone else’s identity?

3 taserian  Mar 18, 2015 6:56:13am

re: #2 SoCaroLion

Even more fascinating is that you don’t seem to consider that time is a major constraint for many voters. Getting an ID is only possible during business hours, which is when most voters are least available; taking time out is costing them money since they aren’t working, so claiming that it’s free is facetious.

Then there’s the additional problem of cutting off early voting, so that they have to use time off to cast their ballot, compounding the above.

On the other hand, the ACA allows you to sign up for it outside of business hours; notice the website? And if your income isn’t enough to qualify for a regular insurance plan, then you can enroll in Medicare right there, without it costing you anything.

4 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 7:34:47am

re: #3 taserian

Getting an ID is only possible during business hours,

As it should be! After all, if a person is attempting to obtain a government issued photo ID (proof of identity), they should expect to have to appear in person. To the contrary, a person is obviously able to sign up for health insurance via HealthCare dot gov at any time they wish because being personally present to prove one’s identity is not a requirement.

By the way, have you been to a DMV between 11:00 am and 1:00 pm (lunch hours) lately? I have (for a duplicate car title), and it’s amazing how busy it is! Dozens of normal people taking valuable time out of their day doing normal, everyday stuff. A trip to the DMV, for any reason, is always an imposition.

5 WhatEVs  Mar 18, 2015 7:46:44am

re: #2 SoCaroLion

Yes, it is much better that people do not get insurance, then get sick or be in an accident, go to the Emergency Room and we all pay for it in increased health care costs and raises in premiums.

Much better solution. How could I not see that.

Obamacare was a conservative solution from the Heritage Foundation. Having single payer (like the dreaded commie Canada) would be much better. Get insurance companies out of the mix and get all Americans covered. Better coverage at far less cost.

Seriously, get your head out of your ass.

6 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 7:57:22am

re: #5 WhatEVs

I respect your opinion, even though it (the merit of the ACA) is in no way germane to the ideological question I posed in my original post.

7 taserian  Mar 18, 2015 7:58:06am

re: #4 SoCaroLion

But voter registration in SC doesn’t require a photo ID; a utility bill serves just as well.

So why are you demanding a photo ID?

Also note that the voter registration form requires that the registrant swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that they are a valid voter. By demanding a photo ID, you are stating that their sworn testimony / affirmation isn’t enough. And also stating that, if they aren’t a valid voter but still signed the voter registration, having a photo ID won’t prevent them from voting.

And anecdotal evidence of lunch hour activity at the DMV isn’t an argument for those who can’t get there. How about extending the hours that the DMV is open?

8 taserian  Mar 18, 2015 8:04:41am

re: #6 SoCaroLion

Consider that you brought the ACA into the discussion “even though it is in no way germane to the ideological question” the original post mentioned.

9 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 8:07:59am

re: #7 taserian

Thank you for the excellent response! And you’re absolutely right about my anecdote regarding the DMV; it certainly isn’t evidence. I only included it to keep my response somewhat lighthearted.

I would certainly support extending DMV hours. However, I’m sure that there are plenty of state-level politics involved that would make it nearly impossible to enact.

10 WhatEVs  Mar 18, 2015 8:13:13am

re: #9 SoCaroLion

Thank you for the excellent response! And you’re absolutely right about my anecdote regarding the DMV; it certainly isn’t evidence. I only included it to keep my response somewhat lighthearted.

So, in other words, you are throwing a bunch of shit, sorry, anecdotes out there…just because.

I would certainly support extending DMV hours. However, I’m sure that there are plenty of state-level politics involved that would make it nearly impossible to enact.

Banks used to be 9-5 (banker hours) and now are open on Sundays. Nothing is impossible.

11 Dark_Falcon  Mar 18, 2015 8:18:02am

re: #9 SoCaroLion

Thank you for the excellent response! And you’re absolutely right about my anecdote regarding the DMV; it certainly isn’t evidence. I only included it to keep my response somewhat lighthearted.

Baloney! Nobody brings up Obama’s biggest and most contentious achievement to be ‘lighthearted’.

12 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 8:20:01am

re: #8 taserian

Yes, I did, in fact, raise the ACA. However, I never mentioned - and therefore - never debated the merits or benefits of the ACA, only the government imposed tax penalty associated with not buying health insurance.

I used it in order to pose a question asking why people enthusiastically support one monetarily expensive government imposition (ACA tax penalty) and decry another virtually free one (Voter ID).

13 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 8:21:35am

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

Lol!

14 Obdicut (Now with 2% less brain)  Mar 18, 2015 8:23:24am

re: #12 SoCaroLion

Yes, I did, in fact, raise the ACA. However, I never mentioned - and therefore - never debated the merits or benefits of the ACA, only the government imposed tax penalty associated with not buying health insurance.

I used it in order to pose a question asking why people enthusiastically support one monetarily expensive government imposition (ACA tax penalty) and decry another virtually free one (Voter ID).

Because they are completely unlike each other in every way.

Seriously, this makes as much sense as asking “Why are those damn liberals in favor of spending money on education, but not in favor of spending money on building churches?”

Voter ID is not ‘virtually free’. in time and actual money, it costs. Yet you keep dishonestly presenting it in this way. Please stop, it makes you look as though you’re simply willing to misstate the facts because of partisan zeal.

15 lawhawk  Mar 18, 2015 8:35:45am

re: #14 Obdicut (Now with 2% less brain)

DMV/MVCs are operating with fewer hours and fewer days in many parts of the country because of budget pressures and because a lot more stuff can be done online (like renewals). The problem is that to get the ID requires going to the DMV/MVC, and it’s a serious hassle/cost for those who don’t currently have the non-drivers’ licenses with no real need for them, other than as part of the Voter ID requirements.

The problem is that the claims of voter fraud are so wildly overstated that it bears repeating. In the billion or so votes cast, there’s a handful of cases. Individual fraud simply isn’t a problem.

Yes, voter rolls should be purged and kept current far better than they have been to date, but that’s not a fraud issue that individuals can engage in. It’s an issue that can be exploited by those who know how to work/game the system, and voterID doesn’t prevent that from happening.

Voter ID is meant to suppress turnout in elections, and has minimal impact on preventing fraud.

16 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 8:36:06am

re: #14 Obdicut (Now with 2% less brain)

Thank you for the reply. With all due respect and zero snark, I think what you’re trying to say is that my argument is an “apples and oranges” comparison.

But I disagree. The ACA tax penalty and Voter ID laws are both government imposed burdens. Why would you support imposing the ACA’s tax penalty on someone who chose not to buy health insurance, and not support a far less expensive burden to simply prove one’s identity at the voting booth?

17 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 8:41:00am

re: #15 lawhawk

I have absolutely no doubt that the voter fraud claims are vastly overstated. However, I think the same could be said of voter suppression.

Rueters

While some election officials and experts cautioned it was still too early to determine the impact of the laws, Reuters found higher voter turnout since they took effect in the two states; few people casting provisional ballots because they lacked IDs; and limited anecdotal evidence of people facing major obstacles in voting.

18 Dark_Falcon  Mar 18, 2015 8:41:35am

re: #16 SoCaroLion

Pro Tip: Don’t patronize Obdicut. Everyone who’s ever tried that has gotten her/his butt kicked.

19 Obdicut (Now with 2% less brain)  Mar 18, 2015 8:43:34am

re: #16 SoCaroLion

Thank you for the reply. With all due respect and zero snark, I think what you’re trying to say is that my argument is an “apples and oranges” comparison.

More like oranges and tire wrenches, but sure.

But I disagree. The ACA tax penalty and Voter ID laws are both government imposed burdens.

That’s not a good summary of either of them, no. It is one attribute of them, but you could then ask why do conservatives favor any taxes at all, and yet not support obamacare? Your logic doesn’t have any leg to stand on, at all.

Why would you support imposing the ACA’s tax penalty on someone who chose not to buy health insurance, and not support a far less expensive burden to simply prove one’s identity at the voting booth?

Because the tax penalty for the ACA is necessary in order to actually get people to have health insurance, which is necessary because health insurance companies are now ‘forced’ to give health insurance even to those with pre-existing conditions.

This has been covered at length in discussions about the ACA. Have you really never run across the rationale for the penalty before? That seems odd.

20 Obdicut (Now with 2% less brain)  Mar 18, 2015 8:44:30am

re: #15 lawhawk

To put it another way: Why do conservatives want government intervention to solve a problem that doesn’t exist? How is that in the least bit a conservative value or position?

Me, I like it when the government solves actual problems, not fictitious ones.

21 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 8:46:02am

Hey, Backwoods_Sleuth and SteelPH (SteelPH). Your down-voting is only encouraging me. :-)

22 Dark_Falcon  Mar 18, 2015 8:47:35am

re: #21 SoCaroLion

23 Obdicut (Now with 2% less brain)  Mar 18, 2015 8:49:34am

re: #21 SoCaroLion

Why would that be a bad thing?

I think it’s great for you to expose how weak your arguments are. I mean, your logic is literally: Since democrats don’t want government ‘burdening’ taxpayer with costs for ID, why do they want to burden taxpayer with costs for healthcare?

Which can be turned around to: Since republicans don’t want government ‘burdening’ taxpayers with the cost of abortions, why do they want to burden taxpayers with the cost of supporting the military?

Did you try to self-criticize your argument at all before putting it out on here? It’s the kind of thing that if you think about it for a few moments you can see why it doesn’t work.

24 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 8:54:44am

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

You win! It’s not quite Godwin’s law, but I’ll take it.

25 lawhawk  Mar 18, 2015 8:57:14am

re: #16 SoCaroLion

Because the lack of an individual obtaining health insurance is a burden on everyone, not just the individual. Uninsureds entering the health care delivery system increase costs to the medical providers (typically hospital ERs) because they don’t have coverage and lack the means to pay for their care.

Hospitals therefore have to maintain significant indigent care funds and often have to treat these patients for ailments that would have been cheaper if treated in urgent care or a doctor’s office (things possible when the patient has health insurance).

The indigent care costs are passed on to all the other hospital users in the form of higher fees/costs. The individual mandate helps reduce this cost to hospitals since everyone would theoretically be covered with insurance (whether Medicare via expansion or by ACA compliant policies obtained through the marketplace or via employer, which is still how most people get insurance).

There is no similar cause-effect re: voting. Lower or higher voter turnout does not affect the costs to others.

26 Obdicut (Now with 2% less brain)  Mar 18, 2015 8:59:00am

re: #24 SoCaroLion

I don’t think you’re a troll, I think you just can’t reason very well. Or aren’t, I should say.

27 SoCaroLion  Mar 18, 2015 9:14:56am

re: #25 lawhawk

There is no similar cause-effect re: voting. Lower or higher voter turnout does not affect the costs to others.

I realize that you are referring to monetary, not abstract external costs, but really!?!?

The outcomes of elections, to the benefit of one constituency or another, always affect the costs to everyone. For example, just imagine if Gore/Lieberman had prevailed in 2000. Instead, we were cursed with W and ended up in Afghanistan and Iraq, and suffered not only unfathomable monetary war debt, but the horrific loss of thousands of Americans lives.

Apropos, how many votes separated Gore and Bush in Florida?

537 out of 6,000,000…Less than 0.0001% of the total votes cast.

28 Obdicut (Now with 2% less brain)  Mar 18, 2015 9:20:22am

re: #27 SoCaroLion

Can you address any of the criticisms of your ‘argument’, please?

Your last post appears to be a somewhat dim attempt to say that no matter how small voter fraud is, it needs to be addressed. If you think this is true, you need to explicitly say it. The counterargument, by the way, is that it was the exclusion of votes due to ID laws and other dirty tricks by the GOP in florida that resulted in that small margin. So you have, I”m afraid, just argued very strongly against yourself.

Again, do you think about your arguments before making them? You’re doing an excellent job of portraying the intellectual bankruptness of voter ID laws.

29 lawhawk  Mar 18, 2015 9:34:41am

re: #27 SoCaroLion

You’re off on the math by the way.

537 out of 6 million = 0.0000895. Move the decimal place two places gives you 0.00895% You were off by several factors.

And the actual tally by Justin Levitt was 31 cases in over one billion votes cast. Note too that the 31 cases are only those that are plausibly individual voter fraud - not actual proven cases of voter fraud. Mistakes and other errors are likely the culprits - not intent to commit voter fraud. But let’s assume all 31 cases are voter fraud.

That works out to… breaking my calculator. 31/1,000,000,000 = .000000031 or .0000031%

.00895% > .0000031%

So, if Voter ID is suppressing the vote, it has a far greater effect on outcomes than any voter fraud by an individual that Voter ID is meant to prevent.

30 taserian  Mar 19, 2015 8:46:11am

re: #9 SoCaroLion

Please note that you haven’t addressed the substance of my argument.

a) On the SC voter registration form, you are required to swear/affirm that you are eligible to vote, and you can submit that form without presenting a photo ID (a utility bill is valid for this purpose). Additionally, if the photo ID or utility bill isn’t presented at the time the form is submitted, the ID requirement is *specifically waived* for certain parts of the voting population (older than 65, disabled, etc.) So requiring a Photo ID cannot be a requirement for authentication under current SC law. (I’m unaware if other states’ requirements, but I’ll assume that they are not much more different than these; we can address

b) If you have a valid photo ID, are *not* eligible to vote but swear/affirm to being eligible anyway, the requirement of the photo ID provides no additional protection regarding the sanctity of the vote; therefore, it isn’t valid proof of your eligibility to vote.

Even if the law requires a photo id, the only problem it would solve is impersonation, not eligibility.

- - - -
A much larger problem is the denial of voting rights to those that are eligible to vote. A photo ID requirement does nothing to address this.

projects.aljazeera.com
nytimes.com


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